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Thanks for the quick reply, as always.
Think the dry hops simply restarted fermentation a bit? My OG was suppose to be around 1.056 and turned out at about 1.070. I think the tamarind and crystallized ginger added more sugar than expected. Maybe the yeast had temporarily slowed? I'm trying not to disturb it much, so I'm holding off on a hydrometer reading till I'm ready to bottle or keg next Thursday or Friday.
Think the dry hops simply restarted fermentation a bit? My OG was suppose to be around 1.056 and turned out at about 1.070. I think the tamarind and crystallized ginger added more sugar than expected. Maybe the yeast had temporarily slowed? I'm trying not to disturb it much, so I'm holding off on a hydrometer reading till I'm ready to bottle or keg next Thursday or Friday.
peterpasha
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I made this wort 2.5 weeks ago, it's a Mexican Hot Chocolate Stout. Fermentables were
I usually just add cacao nibs for the chocolate flavour, but I really wanted to hit up the chocolate for this one. I chilled and transferred to a Fast Ferment with an OG of 1.061, and added two packets of Safale S-04. I had very vigorous airlock activity for the first week (usually I just get a day or two for regular beers) and then nothing for the next week. Thinking it was finished, I dumped the trub ball and transferred to a sanitized keg. I took the FG and to my surprise, it was only 1.040, giving me only 2.7% ABV. While I'm okay with a session stout, I was expecting it to come down to (at least) below 1.020. There was also a LOT of clumpy trub still in the beer. So, I cleaned and sanitized the Fast Ferment and transferred the beer back to it, intending to give it another week. After a day or two of thinking about it, I added another packet of S-04, thinking that the large amount of additives had stressed out the yeast and it had given up.
I opened it on Friday, for a gravity reading and saw this film on top. I've never seen anything like this before, but there is no moldy smell. In fact, it smells amazingly chocolaty! I had sampled it right after the chill post-boil and it had an overwhelming flavour of cumin, but when I tasted it after 2 weeks, it tasted great, the cumin flavour had settled down to just a hint and the chili peppers gave it a real 'hot' kick.
What does the hive mind think of this?
- 10 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (52.6%)
- 3 lb - Rolled Oats (15.8%)
- 2.25 lb - American - Chocolate (11.8%)
- 2.25 lb - American - Roasted Barley (11.8%)
- 0.5 lb - Maltodextrin (2.6%)
- 1 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) (5.3%)
- 1 lb - chocolate, Time: 60 min, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
- 14 g - Habanero Chilies (dried), Time: 90 min, Type: Flavor, Use: Boil
- 2 each - cinnamon, Time: 15 min, Type: Flavor, Use: Whirlpool
- 4 tbsp - cumin, Time: 15 min, Type: Flavor, Use: Whirlpool
- 2 each - vanilla, Time: 15 min, Type: Flavor, Use: Whirlpool
I usually just add cacao nibs for the chocolate flavour, but I really wanted to hit up the chocolate for this one. I chilled and transferred to a Fast Ferment with an OG of 1.061, and added two packets of Safale S-04. I had very vigorous airlock activity for the first week (usually I just get a day or two for regular beers) and then nothing for the next week. Thinking it was finished, I dumped the trub ball and transferred to a sanitized keg. I took the FG and to my surprise, it was only 1.040, giving me only 2.7% ABV. While I'm okay with a session stout, I was expecting it to come down to (at least) below 1.020. There was also a LOT of clumpy trub still in the beer. So, I cleaned and sanitized the Fast Ferment and transferred the beer back to it, intending to give it another week. After a day or two of thinking about it, I added another packet of S-04, thinking that the large amount of additives had stressed out the yeast and it had given up.
I opened it on Friday, for a gravity reading and saw this film on top. I've never seen anything like this before, but there is no moldy smell. In fact, it smells amazingly chocolaty! I had sampled it right after the chill post-boil and it had an overwhelming flavour of cumin, but when I tasted it after 2 weeks, it tasted great, the cumin flavour had settled down to just a hint and the chili peppers gave it a real 'hot' kick.
What does the hive mind think of this?
peterpasha
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RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I think I'm looking at a film from the chocolate rather than a pellicle.
What chocolate did you use? Fats (e.g. cocoa butter) will float on top of the beer.
Did you dry the chilies yourself? Sometimes commercially-dried fruits/veggies have oil added.
The s.g. is a problem. You are using a hydrometer, correct?
S-04 is known for flocculating and dropping out before it finishes. You should warm it up and swirl it to rouse the yeast. If you've already removed the yeast, rehydrate and pitch another packet.
I'd suggest troubleshooting this in a new thread, since I don't believe it's a contamination issue.
Hope this helps.
What chocolate did you use? Fats (e.g. cocoa butter) will float on top of the beer.
Did you dry the chilies yourself? Sometimes commercially-dried fruits/veggies have oil added.
The s.g. is a problem. You are using a hydrometer, correct?
S-04 is known for flocculating and dropping out before it finishes. You should warm it up and swirl it to rouse the yeast. If you've already removed the yeast, rehydrate and pitch another packet.
I'd suggest troubleshooting this in a new thread, since I don't believe it's a contamination issue.
Hope this helps.
Woke up this morning to pitch my yeast for an Irish Red I brewed Friday afternoon (let chill overnight and wasn't home to pitch yesterday) and found some airlock activity so I was a little intrigued. Opened it up to find a layer of krausen. Pulled a sample and it doesn't taste sour (yet). Looks like it lost 2 gravity points though. Thoughts?
That's a lot of krausen over one night! Possibly a wild yeast?
I'd pitch that yeast ASAP, hoping for it to get a stronger foothold before the wild yeast does.
Are you pitching a fresh pack or starter? An active vitality starter is best as it will take off faster, esential in this case, but will take about 4-6 hours to grow.
The other route is reboiling the wort (it's now 'beer' actually), rechill and pitch your intended yeast starter. That will eliminate whatever is trying to take over your beer right now.
I do use a lot of diastaticus with my other strains so there is a chance it's present, although the previous batch attenuated normally and didn't have diastaticus. I pitched a fresh pack of S04 just before posting on here to try to get a foothold like you mentioned.
It could be Diastaticus, but it's more known for super-attenuation, not necessarily taking off like a rocket overnight. Now chilling overnight may have kept your wort at the critical 120-80F temps for a relatively long time, ideal for those critters to grow.
That's the most krausen I've ever seen in such a short time after an (unintended) 'wild' inoculation.
I'd review your cleaning and sanitation regimen, something got missed perhaps?
Maybe take that kettle valve apart for a thorough cleaning? The chamber where the ball rotates. Or some other bug trap.
2 months ago I had a spontaneous fermentation starting in my stainless pot with leftover starter wort. It smelled great, I put it into a growler with an airlock to finish out. The first tastes while it developed were very Belgian, but by the time it finished it tasted more like @ss. It never got better, so it got dumped. There was quite a bit of a yeast cake for a 1.5 liter fermentation.
That's the most krausen I've ever seen in such a short time after an (unintended) 'wild' inoculation.
I'd review your cleaning and sanitation regimen, something got missed perhaps?
Maybe take that kettle valve apart for a thorough cleaning? The chamber where the ball rotates. Or some other bug trap.
2 months ago I had a spontaneous fermentation starting in my stainless pot with leftover starter wort. It smelled great, I put it into a growler with an airlock to finish out. The first tastes while it developed were very Belgian, but by the time it finished it tasted more like @ss. It never got better, so it got dumped. There was quite a bit of a yeast cake for a 1.5 liter fermentation.
Liebermann
Member
My first post!
Tried harvesting yeast from two bottles of Saison made with Norwegian farmhouse yeast (kveik). The yeast didn't show the activity that I expected, compared what friends that have harvested kveik recently have experienced from their harvest, but they've used other brands and makes, so I guess it's not really comparable.
Anyway, I bought some bottles of Saison made with kveik (Earthkveik from Haandbryggeriet, made with kveik from Stranda) from my local ABC/LCBO/etc (aka Vinmonopolet here in Norway). I let them rest in the fridge for a good three-four days before I decanted most of two of the bottles of (very lovely) beer into glasses, before I swirled and shook the rest, to collect as much of any yeast in the sediments, which there was plenty of. After a while, letting it still a bit, I pored the content of the bottles into a prepared flask with 35 g of light spray malt dissolved in 300 ml of boiling wather. The flask had been cleaned with PBW beforehand, until completely spotless, then dried top-down, and then completely immersed and flushed with Star San several times, before left top-down on a pre-sanitized surface until used.
EDIT: Uploaded photo, link wasn't working
Tried harvesting yeast from two bottles of Saison made with Norwegian farmhouse yeast (kveik). The yeast didn't show the activity that I expected, compared what friends that have harvested kveik recently have experienced from their harvest, but they've used other brands and makes, so I guess it's not really comparable.
Anyway, I bought some bottles of Saison made with kveik (Earthkveik from Haandbryggeriet, made with kveik from Stranda) from my local ABC/LCBO/etc (aka Vinmonopolet here in Norway). I let them rest in the fridge for a good three-four days before I decanted most of two of the bottles of (very lovely) beer into glasses, before I swirled and shook the rest, to collect as much of any yeast in the sediments, which there was plenty of. After a while, letting it still a bit, I pored the content of the bottles into a prepared flask with 35 g of light spray malt dissolved in 300 ml of boiling wather. The flask had been cleaned with PBW beforehand, until completely spotless, then dried top-down, and then completely immersed and flushed with Star San several times, before left top-down on a pre-sanitized surface until used.
- After a couple of days there was some activity, yeast was seemingly forming along the bottom rim of the flask, in a scattered, hazy way.
- After two days there was increased growth, in the same way as the day before. I turned the flask a couple of times, as I'd been instructed.
- On day three, after being swirled and mixed, the yeast had started growing in larger clusters, and further up from the bottom than earlier, but still from the bottom. A small hazy growth was starting to appear at the top 1/3 of the flask.
- On day four the growth had increased, both at the top and the bottom of the flask. Still hazy and scattered at the top, and in larger clusters at the bottom. I turned the flask a couple of times, again according to instructions.
- On the fifth day there wasn't really any progress worth mentioning in the flask, maybe just minor increases in growth. What I've heard about kveik is that it's wild, and that you should expect and be prepared for blow-offs. This was nothing like it.
- On day six, prepared to turn the flask a few times to swirl and mix up the content ones more, I found a 1 mm thick layer of white substance growing on the surface. It had clear strands in its structure. When I opened the flask, to release any pressure, there was a distinctively sour smell coming off. Not bad, not rotten (sulfur), just distinctively milky sour.
EDIT: Uploaded photo, link wasn't working
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Welcome to HBT!
Could you please edit your post, relinking the image; it's not showing and for some reason I can't get the URL to fix it.
That sure sounds like an infection, the hazy pellicle and the sour scent. Lacto is possible, could be something else.
Harvesting clean yeast from bottles needs to be done in certain ways to prevent other organisms from invading. It may take some extra research and trial and error to do it right.
I don't see you mentioning how you sanitized the bottle lips. Unless well cleaned and sanitized, simply popping the lid can cause microorganisms hanging around that area to get inside, and ruin your project.
When propagating yeast from dregs, a 20-50 ml of 1.020 first step starter is more typical. Once they're going you may combine and step up to 500ml or 1 liter at 1.040. Since they grew they must have been vital enough and propagated well.
We'd like to see that picture, if you can get it possibly to work.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
If there's any kind of film other than Saccharomyces krausen, then yeah, it's probably "contaminated".
It could be any number of microbes or a combination thereof; you can't definitely say it's Lacto or anything else without microbiological testing.
Beyond sterilizing the bottle mouth (use flame!), I'd also suggest getting super fresh bottles, and adding hops to the starter wort.
FYI: Omega is selling a strain from Stranda (the only one that grew) as Hothead (OYL-057).
I'm not sure whether Haandbryggeriet is using a mixed culture or not. ... If they are, it's possible there may be bacteria present in the bottles.
Cheers
Liebermann
Member
Image fixed!
I sprayed the beer bottles with Star San before opening, but not after. I'll be sure to do that the next time, maybe flame it as well.
Thanks for the advice, I will definitely take care to sanitize the beer bottles better the next time, and possibly add some hops to the starter. The lab bottles I use for growing have a plastic lip, I guess to make a good seal with the cap, so I won't be able to flame them. Do you think boiling will be sufficient?
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Thanks for the image fix. Beautiful!
That's a thick pellicle, that bug is having a field day. If you're into sours, you may be able to use that starter for those. Just give it a good taste test first, it won't harm you.
Grain and grain dust is loaded with Lactobacillus, so be aware where you work with yeast and fermentations. Don't weigh or mill grain indoors or where you ferment.
I also turn the AC/Heating system off when working with yeast.
Crimp caps on bottles can hold a lot of microflora right right under the crimp. Spraying Starsan or an Iodine sanitizer under that lip/cap area should eradicate them and flush them out. Give it a minute to do its work. Spray more, and pry off carefully, go around to ease it up, then remove by just lifting it. Sanitize the neck/lip area again immediately. I like to mop/wipe those areas with a small, squeezed out Starsan soaked washcloth, not quite dripping. Some people use isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol or flame the lip before pouring wort in or the dregs out.
Don't flame plastics, they'll never be the same again.
That's a nice bottle!
Now yeast starters need access to oxygen in order to grow, do you open the lid between shaking? Do you have a (home-built) stir plate or orbital shaker?
For most brewing related processes sanitizing and pasteurization is enough, as long as the yeast pitched can get a good start to overwhelm and crowd out competitors.
When working with yeast a bit more attention to sanitation is wanted and needed, so you grow the yeast not the bugs, unless it's intentional (wild cultures). Sterilization is the best, but you need a pressure cooker/canner or autoclave to 250F/122C. In this case that bug took over at some point. If your equipment was well sanitized it may well have come from the bottle.
I've had a few starters look the same way, getting a haze turning into a thick pellicle after a few days. Or one flask had the infection the other didn't.
I don't use hops in starters, it mostly deters lactobacillus, not necessarily wild yeasts. I rarely have starter infections, but they do happen.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I wouldn't. There may be enteric bacteria since there's no alcohol.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wild_Yeast_Isolation#Safety
In my experience, pbw + boiling + star san along with good aseptic technique is enough to keep out contaminants.
I generally also do a control when I'm attempting to propagate dregs and it doesn't grow anything (at least so far).
Good luck
He said he had yeast growth already before the pellicle developed. The pH should have dropped due to that as well as some creation of alcohol. Enteric bacteria don't give good smelling or tasting beer, a smell test may be enough to be off putting.
Liebermann
Member
Haha, I don't think I'd be able to, not really that seasoned a brewer
I am planning to make some Berliner Weisse, but I think I'm gonna go into that with a little more control over the input.I did open it, but only slightly, to release any pressure from CO2. Don't have a stir plate or shaker, trying to keep things simple at the current point in my home-brewing career. Have gone into too many hobby projects completely overinvested in gear and gadgets, before I've even found out if it's something I wanna continue doing
Wasn't aware that it needs oxygen, I actually got the opposite advise. I'll take note of that.Thanks a lot for all the good advice, really nice of you
Probably gonna give it another try today, and hopefully I won't be back here posting images, at least not of that.Thanks, hopefully PBW + boiling + Star San, with a little bit of prying around the crimp, will do the trick.
What kind of control? I'm curious.
Liebermann
Member
Yeah, there was plenty growth before. Smelt it again just now, before I chucked it out, and it smelt a lot like sour beers that I've had. Less milky than yesterday maybe, more like sour beer. Not unpleasant in any way. Not gonna taste it anyway, I probably need to have tasted something that was supposed to smell and look like that, before I try something where it's not wanted nor expected
I'm so sorry to hear that. Can you trace back where the infection may have incurred other than the crimp cap/lip area? Although probably most suspicious, thinking about it, I would have expected the infection to show up sooner if that was the case, unless it was really small.Yeah, there was plenty growth before. Smelt it again just now, before I chucked it out, and it smelt a lot like sour beers that I've had. Less milky than yesterday maybe, more like sour beer. Not unpleasant in any way. Not gonna taste it anyway, I probably need to have tasted something that was supposed to smell and look like that, before I try something where it's not wanted nor expected
Are you going to try it again with some revised techniques and methods?
Yeast starters need O2 to propagate, an aerobic environment encourages them to keep budding instead of fermenting. There's always some of both going on, but we want to stimulate growth here. Read up on starters and stir plates. 1.015-1.020 starter wort for the first step. Add some nutrients too. DAP, Urea, Epsom Salt, and ZnSO4 or ZnCl2, if you have it. You only need a tiny, tiny amount for 200 ml. Add to the wort when you're boiling it.
Another method to propagate yeast is 'shaken-not-stirred' yeast starters. Look it up. It requires vigorous shaking, creating lots of foam. Your half liter (?) bottles may be ideal for propagating the small amounts harvested from dregs to more sizeable amounts.
Liebermann
Member
Everything was thoroughly cleaned and sanitized, so apart from not boiling the bottle and equipment I used, I can't really see where I went wrong.
I will indeed
Adding boiling to the process, I will try to harvest some yeast from an apple cider I have fermenting with the same strain of kveik (NCYC 4021), and from a bottle of Kveika Rødøl from Grünerløkka Brygghus, a local brewery just a block from where I live. A friend has had great success with harvesting from that one, several times. Apparently it's made with five different types of kveik, ref. http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/farmhouse/kveik.htmlI've got several batches of various ciders, a Kölsch and at least one Berliner Weisse planned, all on hold and dependent on me being able to grow a sizable enough culture of that yeast to start pitching from it, so I really hope I will succeed with this. Sometime soon
Thanks a lot, great advice! I already have some nutrients from Wyeast, that I've used in the starter worts and in the cider I've got going. I've probably used too much spray malt for the starters I've made, if 1.015-1.025 is the target OG, so I will reduce it to about 75 g per liter, or 15 g for 200 ml in the 0.5 L bottles. Will read up on the methods you've described.
If the yeast to be harvested is old or really stressed, her cell walls are weak, osmosis can't be regulated and relatively high gravity wort will kill her. That's why lower gravity wort is recommended, as low as 1.010. She also needs oxygen (air is fine) to build up her sterol levels so she can start budding again. After that initial round she's stronger and you can use 1.020 wort before going to 1.037-1.040.
When adding fresh wort to an existing starter that has finished, I take the estimated residual gravity of the volume of spent starter wort/beer into consideration to arrive at the new intended gravity. In the early phases of reviving yeast cold crashing causes more stress and is discouraged.
Rule of thumb, 100gr DME in 1000ml water (1:10 by weight) gives you around 1.037 wort, considered ideal for regular yeast propagation. Use a yeast calculator like HomebrewDad's, it will also calculate step-ups.
Pay attention to cleaning and sanitizing bottle and cap threads. And that plastic seal you mentioned. Anything with tight spaces can harbor bugs.
Hope your next harvesting project fares better. You've already gained a lot of knowledge and experience.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
The original narrative wasn't really convincing to me... Basically any microbe growing would make it look cloudy. There was no mention of bubbling or krausen and the pellicle photo looks rather flat, indicating lack of carbonation (i.e. yeast activity).
Did I skip over something? Gravity readings would have been definitive.
I'd prefer to err on the side of safety, wouldn't you?
That's a good point and you're probably right, but it only takes a little of certain pathogenic bacteria to make you sick. Off-aromas may still be below detection threshold.
The risk/benefit ratio just didn't seem favorable in my opinion.
When I make starter wort for dregs, a portion of it goes into another jar for at least a week to see whether anything grows.
I check for turbidity, bubbling, pellicle, or any microbial aroma.
The control helps me determine my dreg starters aren't contaminated from my process.
RedRockBrewer
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Well first time poster. Just got a brewing kit from the girlfriend and super stoked about this hobby. Haven't been this excited about something outside work in a long time. So here is a pic of my current brew. Its the IPA that comes with the Northern Brewing Deluxe Kit. We started it a week ago and this growth on the mouth/neck of the carboy just showed up a day ago. Just want to make sure we aren't wasting our time with this one as the beer itself still looks fine. Appreciate any advice/answer.
ancientmariner52
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the hobby / obsession / madness!
That looks like normal yeast, probably stranded up there after a more active phase of fermentation. If it doesn't grow, and doesn't smell bad, you are probably fine.
At this stage, patience is the hardest thing. Good luck to you!
I am a couple batches into this new hobby and would like some input on this image. Roughly one day after racking into secondary I am seeing this oily sheen on top of the beer. If I adjust the carboy around it seems to stick together in one big piece and will adhere to the glass. My first thought was its the start of an infection but this is also the first time I've used cacao nibs and wonder if the oil from them is just floating on the surface. Any thoughts?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Looks fine!
Now you've taken the lid off, bottle ASAP!
treacheroustexan
Well-Known Member
Not sure what’s starting to happen here or if it’s normal. Blueberry kettle sour starting to get a white film around the blueberries. I killed off the bugs before I pitched my normal yeast. Must have picked something up when I transferred onto the frozen blueberries. I’m gonna keg it tonight I think!
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Probably from the blueberries themselves.
Those are large yeast rafts floating there! Maybe from the dry hopping, which may have caused some outgassing, pushing the yeast cake up.
The foam underneath looks a little weird being so white and soap bubble-like. Probably just the way that yeast and her krausen is.
Yeah, it looks like you've got red and green peppers in there.
Thanks for putting my mind at ease. Should I swirl it all upp you think?Those are large yeast rafts floating there! Maybe from the dry hopping, which may have caused some outgassing, pushing the yeast cake up.
The foam underneath looks a little weird being so white and soap bubble-like. Probably just the way that yeast and her krausen is.
Yeah, it looks like you've got red and green peppers in there.
I think dry hopping can always benefit from some gentle agitation/swirling/stirring. But the trade off is if you need to lift the fermenter lid to do so, air will fill the headspace that was CO2-rich before. Flush the headspace with CO2 when you're done. You may also increase risk of infections when lifting the lid, so sanitize well, especially the rim area.
Did you add the dry hops loose or bagged?
Centennial blond that has been fermenting for 1 week, glass carboy, used starsan on everything religiously . US-05 yeast .
Noticed a few white spots, is this an infection or yeast rafts?
Noticed a few white spots, is this an infection or yeast rafts?
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RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Just yeast, no worries.
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