Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

Hydro reading would be suggested. What kind of temp were you running the past 3 days? Cloudiness could be from using cider instead of apple juice. Give us some more info about your setup and procedure.

Thank you, Brandon, for this recipe! I've been wondering about doing something similar and now I have a perfect jumping-off spot for experimentation. I just finished reading this thread and it's just what I've been looking for.

I can't wait to try this. It's next on the brewing schedule!

-Vanth

I'm getting ready to bottle my Accidental Graff Lite tonight. I decided to give the recipe another read to see if I need to do anything goofy for priming sugar, and realized I used 1lb instead of 1oz of tortified wheat. Shucks. Hopefully my next batch will go a bit more smoothly.

Hopefully I'll remember to omit adding KSorbate when backsweetening and bottle conditioning. Then I'd actually see some results from adding torrified wheat. It seems like everybody should have a better Round 2 of this recipe.

i KNOW my next batch will be better, I had really NO temp control this time around. After taking some grav samples I realized that the temp just might have been sitting between 73-76 for most of the time. I think it tastes alright though, should taste better cold a carbed I hope. Certainly not bad enough to toss but it might not be exactly what I was hoping for.

Drinking through imperfect batches builds character

greencoat said:

I'm getting ready to bottle my Accidental Graff Lite tonight. I decided to give the recipe another read to see if I need to do anything goofy for priming sugar, and realized I used 1lb instead of 1oz of tortified wheat. Shucks. Hopefully my next batch will go a bit more smoothly.

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Well, on the upside, the head formation and retention should be AMAZING!!

OK.. I joined the GRAFF club today.

4 Gallon Batch. Scaled everything down, from the 5 gal recipe but only used 3 gal of Apple juice instead of 3.2. Volume of Wort may have been a bit more or a bit less than perfect scaling. Didn't measure evaporation loss.

0.8 lb Amber DME
0.8 lb Light DME
0.4 lb (6.4 oz) Crystal 75L
0.8 oz CaraPils (no Torrified Wheat handy)
3 gal mixed store brand Apple Juice/Apple Cider. The juice was from a of combo pressed juice + concentrate, (sugars 24 g/8 oz) the Cider was all from concentrate + vitamin C. (28 g sugar/8 oz). Not sure WHY they call this cider except it was darker than the juice, but still clear.

11 g Nottingham Yeast rehydrated in 1/2 cup boiled water cooled to 90 deg F..

Wort made in 3 qts water, sparged with ~3 cups 170 deg F water. Should have scaled down the original water, but I figured I would lose a lot in evaporation. Not sure if the original recipe includes making up evaporation losses so final volume is exact, but I thought it would be about right without making up losses.

OG = 1.061 so I am pretty much in the ballpark.

Oh yeah, I didn't use any hops either.

Bottled my Graff tonight. Out of the primary the stuff tastes amazing. It finished at 1.008. It is not very sweet, and seems to be dry. The wife liked the sample I poured out of the bottling bucket. She is excited to have it carbed up and chilled down. Graff batch two may be in the works later this week!

Oh, It came out very clear after three weeks in the primary and with the use of Irish Moss. We'll see how it does once it's conditioned, if chill haze rears it's ugly head.

my graff is all bottled and carb'd. it fermented too hot, somewhere around 75, due to the hot ferm. temp. and just pure lazyness the graff sat in the fermenter for about 5 weeks. but it still tastes great, nice foamy head with a malty yet tart taste. i think next time i will not use hops. this seems like a great drink for the winter months with how much alcohol it produces but still good for a summer time drink just because its so easy to drink.

Finally going to "brew" some of this. I found gallons of martinelli's apple juice for $5 each at a local restaurant, of all places... I guess they bought way too much of it and are trying to get rid of it. 4 gallons of graff, coming up...

Couple quick questions -

I'm new to grain brewing and don't have a mill. If I buy a large batch of grains (several recipes worth) and have them milled, can I just used what I need for one batch immediately, and save the rest for later batches 2-4 months from now?

Also, how would the taste differ if one used say 1/2 120L and 1/2 10L vs using just all 60L? Do the 120L and 10L sort of "average out" to be like 60L, or would something different be the result?

Torrified wheat vs carapils vs flaked wheat -- all do basically the same thing?

Thanks!

jaginger said:

Torrified wheat vs carapils vs flaked wheat -- all do basically the same thing?

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This is my first time looking through this thread, but I am suprised that people are using flaked/torrified wheat. Both of those need to be mashed and will otherwise leave loose starches floating around in your cider. If I were making this I would certainly go with the carapils, it does not need to be mashed and should have a positive effect on head retention and mouthfeel from the dextrines.

It's funny, I recently read the EXACT SAME THING regarding CaraPils mashing vs. steeping with great controversy (maybe in this thread?). But one reference was to Palmer's HowToBrew:

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Malt Types and Usages

Dextrin Malt 3 L Also known as American Carapils, this malt is used sparingly and contributes little color but enhances the mouthfeel and perceived body of the beer. A common amount for a five gallon batch is 1/2 lb. Dextrin malt has no diastatic power. It must be mashed; if steeped it will contribute a lot of unconverted starch and cause starch haze.

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Someone else contacted a manufacturer and they said NO..so there is still controversy over CaraPils. I used it..because I didn't have a good source for Torrified wheat...

In carapils the starches have already been converted to dextrin in the malting process. This is why it's called dextrin malt, and there really isn't any starches left to be converted in the mash so it can absolutely be steeped.

I would like to know how the carapils turns out compared to the torrified wheat so I will try it myself.

My first impression is it probably won't make much of a difference at all because the steeping of torrified wheat in a muslin bag along with crystal grains at a consistent temperature is a short mash of the ingredients.

I can take less than a pound of grains and soak them in hot water in a cooler with a braided manifold for 30 mins and recycle the water for clarity and call it a mash.

I can take less than a pound of grains and put them in a muslin bag and soak them in a consistent temperature of water for 30 minutes and sparge with some hot water and call it steeping.

For the amount of grains we are using, I doubt there is much difference in a 5 gallon batch but I would be interested to hear from people who have used torrified wheat and then also used carapils so we can dial in the recipe.

Brandon O said:

My first impression is it probably won't make much of a difference at all because the steeping of torrified wheat in a muslin bag along with crystal grains at a consistent temperature is a short mash of the ingredients.

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No, that is steeping.

Brandon O said:

I can take less than a pound of grains and soak them in hot water in a cooler with a braided manifold for 30 mins and recycle the water for clarity and call it a mash.

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Not without base grain you can't. And since the crystal malts don't need to be mashed I don't think it's worth the trouble to do a mini mash for one ounce of torrified wheat. That is why I said I would just use the carapils, you still get the foam improvement without having to mash. If you are going to get some base malt in there to convert the torrified wheat then you might as well get two pounds of it and skip the extract all together since you are already going to all the trouble. This would be cheaper and at this point using extract wouldn't be saving you time anyway.

Regarding the use of CaraPils/Torrified wheat for head retention.. does it even matter if there are no Hops in the brew? Seems like I read somewhere that hops contribute to head formation, but since there are so little in Graff, I doubt it contributes too much. I left the hops out of my Graff, and I don't really care if my cider isn't foamy.

I made a couple of Gruits using various herbs rather than hops (one used CaraPils, specifically to aid in head retention though probably too little to matter in hindsight - 1 oz in a 1 gallon batch along with 1 oz Crystal 20L) and I don't get much head at all. Of course as these were my first attempts at Beer/Ale, there are probably 1000 other things that contributed. They did however taste great and knock me on my butt, so I call them a success. Even if I didn't get any head.

I just ordered the stuff to make Graff! I've decided to postpone my eSMaSH experiment and make this next!

I just tried a bottle after a week in bottle and its already very carbonated.
I think that my fermentation might have been stuck and not done when I bottled. It did taste a little sweet and also the ending gravity was 1.009 which I thought was close enough having not come back here to check, and it stayed at 1.009 for a couple days. 1.009 seemd like a good number to me having come from brewing so many regular ales.
Anyways, I'm wondering what to do? it tastes great! but I'm worried about exploding bottles. I think i'll leave then be for another few days at least, then maybe i guess i'll have to permanently store them cold?

1.009 for a few days sounds like it should have been done. How much priming sugar did you use. That could also contribute to the high levels of carbination.

I too just tried mine after about 10 days in bottles and the stuff tastes great! I will be making more of it as soon as I get more bottles.

mine stayed at 1.010 for 4 days so I bottled I used 5 oz of corn sugar does that sound good for 5 gals. Thanks

i bottled with 7/8ths a cup of corn sugar per what i read here, not sure how many oz that was, i used a measuring cup to approximate it.

knotquiteawake said:

I just tried a bottle after a week in bottle and its already very carbonated.
I think that my fermentation might have been stuck and not done when I bottled. It did taste a little sweet and also the ending gravity was 1.009 which I thought was close enough having not come back here to check, and it stayed at 1.009 for a couple days. 1.009 seemd like a good number to me having come from brewing so many regular ales.
Anyways, I'm wondering what to do? it tastes great! but I'm worried about exploding bottles. I think i'll leave then be for another few days at least, then maybe i guess i'll have to permanently store them cold?

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Don't worry about exploding bottles until you open one and it gushes immediately otherwise it may just be really carbonated for some reason.

imprez25 said:

1.009 for a few days sounds like it should have been done. How much priming sugar did you use. That could also contribute to the high levels of carbination.

I too just tried mine after about 10 days in bottles and the stuff tastes great! I will be making more of it as soon as I get more bottles.

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I use 7/8ths cup because I like a good carbed cider. 3/4 cup if you just want normal carb.

Recluse said:

Regarding the use of CaraPils/Torrified wheat for head retention.. does it even matter if there are no Hops in the brew? Seems like I read somewhere that hops contribute to head formation, but since there are so little in Graff, I doubt it contributes too much. I left the hops out of my Graff, and I don't really care if my cider isn't foamy.

I made a couple of Gruits using various herbs rather than hops (one used CaraPils, specifically to aid in head retention though probably too little to matter in hindsight - 1 oz in a 1 gallon batch along with 1 oz Crystal 20L) and I don't get much head at all. Of course as these were my first attempts at Beer/Ale, there are probably 1000 other things that contributed. They did however taste great and knock me on my butt, so I call them a success. Even if I didn't get any head.

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Just make the recipe to spec and you'll be able to hone in on what you like. If you are afraid of .5 oz of hops then just use .25 oz.......but don't rob yourself of the complexity you may never know by supposing about their addition to the taste.

the torrified wheat carapils argument is a moot point at best, don't worry about it RDWHAHB and just follow the recipe because at 1 oz it really doesn't matter what people speculate or theorize. The opinion of experience is one we follow until common experience changes the original into something better. We'll wait for others to try, test, and report the difference....in the mean time, I wish you happy brewing to a delightful crowd pleaser.

knotquiteawake said:

I just tried a bottle after a week in bottle and its already very carbonated.
I think that my fermentation might have been stuck and not done when I bottled. It did taste a little sweet and also the ending gravity was 1.009 which I thought was close enough having not come back here to check, and it stayed at 1.009 for a couple days. 1.009 seemd like a good number to me having come from brewing so many regular ales.
Anyways, I'm wondering what to do? it tastes great! but I'm worried about exploding bottles. I think i'll leave then be for another few days at least, then maybe i guess i'll have to permanently store them cold?

Click to expand...

If you can down 50 beers in a couple weeks time then you have no issues.

jaginger said:

Couple quick questions -

I'm new to grain brewing and don't have a mill. If I buy a large batch of grains (several recipes worth) and have them milled, can I just used what I need for one batch immediately, and save the rest for later batches 2-4 months from now?

Also, how would the taste differ if one used say 1/2 120L and 1/2 10L vs using just all 60L? Do the 120L and 10L sort of "average out" to be like 60L, or would something different be the result?

Torrified wheat vs carapils vs flaked wheat -- all do basically the same thing?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

for the amount you are using you will be fine. I would say, don't worry about mixing 10L and 120L because you are going to end up with a good product. If your style uses a mix of 120L and 10L then you will figure out what mix you like over time. I have used both 120L and 10L and I can tell you either way is good, so I am sure a mix will be just fine.

Brandon O said:

If you can down 50 beers in a couple weeks time then you have no issues.

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I bottled in 22's and 3 1 litre bottles. So only like 20 beers I need to down. Going to have th girlfriend try some tonight, hopefully she likes it enough to help me get through it all.

Brandon O said:

Just make the recipe to spec and you'll be able to hone in on what you like. If you are afraid of .5 oz of hops then just use .25 oz.......but don't rob yourself of the complexity you may never know by supposing about their addition to the taste.

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Good advice. I pretty much followed the recipe without the hops for neurotic reasons :cross:




I love the taste of hops. Once I discovered hoppy IPA's I couldn't get enough of them. Then I stumbled on discussions of Gruits and the 'evils' of the hop and stopped drinking hoppy beverages (though the quantities I ingest under the worst of circumstances are no doubt benign by any measure).

I expect to fall off the wagon in due course and return to my HopHead ways, in both drinking and brewing...but I figured that if I was making Cider, I would remain true to my misguided hop-averting sickness.

/

Meanwhile, Graff will hit 2 weeks this coming Saturday and if it looks clear I will endeavor to bottle it. Still some bubbles on the top, and I haven't taken a gravity reading yet.

EDIT: Gravity reading tonight: 1.011
Clearing..translucent but not quite clear. Got a few more days to the magic 2 weeks anyway. Tasted pretty good. Not quite as sweet as I thought, but not too tart either. Looking forward to tasting it cold, carbed and conditioned!

This is the first time I've brewed something "beer-like" with the grains and hops and what not. As my alias implies, I'm all about Hard Cider. I wanted to do the Apfelwein but I read alot on here that it just doesn't taste....apple enough.

I stumbled upon this thread doing a search for other recipes to try and it sounded pretty intimidating. I never worked with grains nor hops nor did I know how to use them. I didn't even own a bag to steep them in.

I headed to the LHBS and got pretty much everything on the list.

I used 4 gallons of Simply Apple.

I wanted to do the 1lb amber and 1lb light DMEs, but they were out of light, so I used Extra light.

As I have never used hops (and I don't drink beer because I can't stand the bitterness), I split the difference between 0% and 6% AA and got some Czech Saaz 3.2% AA. It was a wonderful smell while it was boiling. I don't drink coffee either (same reason, and I have high BP and I need to watch the caffeine) but it smelled like a night light coffee being brewed.

I literally just got the carboy in my cooling rig about 10 mins ago, so I'm really looking forward to this in 5-6 weeks.

The OG was 1.065 @ 70F, so adjusting for temp according to the chart that came with my hydrometer, it is an adjusted 1.066. So, going by the ABV fomula, if I do get it down to 1.000 when I bottle, there is a chance it could be 9.35% ABV? Wow. I do plan to have it sparkling.

As for my cooling rig, I have a spare fridge that I wasn't really using (I bought one at the last place I lived, but when I moved into this house, it already had a decent fridge, so mine went in the basement). I got the Ranco temp controller and emptied the fridge of everything and set it for 66F. I have vodka in the 3-piece air lock and I'll check the SG in 2 weeks or so.

My 6.5 gallon carboy fits with plenty of room to spare. I am highly doubtful that another 6.5 could sit next to it, but I need to measure to be sure. I'm confident that a 4 or 5 gallon will fit w/ no problem so I'm itching for another recipe to try.

I guess I'll fill everyone in the future as to how it goes.

Ciderbarrel said:

This is the first time I've brewed something "beer-like" with the grains and hops and what not. As my alias implies, I'm all about Hard Cider. I wanted to do the Apfelwein but I read alot on here that it just doesn't taste....apple enough.

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I'd be interested in your take on it...and any advice on Hard Cider making in general. My previous attempt at hard cider (just some really good local cold pasteurized Apple Cider and champagne yeast) failed miserably...but I now know (suspect?) it is probably because I didn't let it age long enough. I have 3 gal of Apfelwein and 4 gal of Graff in progress now with cheaper store-bought juice but I plan on getting some of the good stuff for drinking and fermenting.

My Graff is 2 weeks old tomorrow, (OG 1.062, 11 day Gravity 1.011) but still has islands of bubbles on the surface. Looks like someone spit in it :cross: but more likely just residual CO2 outgassing. Seen this before on ales, but it was usually gone by 2 weeks or less. Should I be worried?

Been drinking more commercial Ciders in anticipation. Growing fond of Woodpecker though originally, I felt it was too dry. I tried some Woodchuck Amber last night, and I find that TOO SWEET... so I am thinking my GRAFF should fit right in with my preferences.

Bottling my first batch tomorrow. Just took a gravity reading. 1.006! That means with my estimated starting gravity of 1.068 it's just over 8% abv. I used safale 05. The sample was good but still kinda dry. Not nearly as bad as the 11% maple apfelwien I made months ago. Noticed the alcohol content in just the little sample I drank. A few of these in the afternoon should give you a pretty good buzz.
Does anybody have results using Nottingham.

Picked up supplies at my LHBS today, I going to brew up my first batch tonight.
:rockin:

LSDracula said:

I used safale 05.

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I forgot to add in my long post that I used that as well.


I can see why people start to panic after a few days when they don't see bubbling. I am using a 6.5 g carboy (it's just what I had on hand) and it's only about 2/3rd to 4/5ths full. The liquid is about a good 6-8 inches away from the stopper and after one day there isn't any bubbling. With that much volume to fill, I don't expect to see any bubbling for about a week or so.

Ciderbarrel said:

I forgot to add in my long post that I used that as well.


I can see why people start to panic after a few days when they don't see bubbling. I am using a 6.5 g carboy (it's just what I had on hand) and it's only about 2/3rd to 4/5ths full. The liquid is about a good 6-8 inches away from the stopper and after one day there isn't any bubbling. With that much volume to fill, I don't expect to see any bubbling for about a week or so.

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Hmmm.. I did a 4 gallon (or less depending on loss of water during boiling) in a 5 gallon carboy and the bubbling started within about 12-14 hours in the blowoff vessel. There was enough headspace that I didnt really need the blowoff, but better safe than sorry. I used Nottingham yeast.

Also have 3 gal of Apfelwein in a 5 gallon carboy (Montrachet yeast) plenty of headspace and the airlock was bubbling within 12 h as well. Check your seals. I had a Mead that I thought never started, but it turned out to be a bad carboy cap leaking the CO2.

Ciderbarrel said:

I can see why people start to panic after a few days when they don't see bubbling. I am using a 6.5 g carboy (it's just what I had on hand) and it's only about 2/3rd to 4/5ths full. The liquid is about a good 6-8 inches away from the stopper and after one day there isn't any bubbling. With that much volume to fill, I don't expect to see any bubbling for about a week or so.

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I used a 6 gal BB and I pitched yeast at 1pm and had airlock activity at 9pm the same day. That's just me. Bubbling is no definite sign of fermentation though. After you truly learn the meaning of RDWHAHB you will know. Just let the fermenter sit and don't touch it.

I got exited though on my last batch. An amber Belgian. I made a proper starter (first time doing it right) and used a blowoff tube. That thing was belching like a freakin volcano! For 3 days! I don't even remember finishing the beer. I love those magical brew faeries!

Recluse said:

Check your seals. I had a Mead that I thought never started, but it turned out to be a bad carboy cap leaking the CO2.

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That'll teach me to brew when I get insomnia and not take some sleeping pills. I didn't have the seal all the way in. I plugged it in all the way and guess what, it's bubbling. I finished the brew about 16 hours ago and it's been at a near constant 66F so it should be all good.

Thanks for the heads up.

I was planning on making a batch of this today, but the home brew store is closed, and the only yeast I have is WLP001 California Ale Yeast. Do you think this will be an alright choice for this, or should I go pick up a different yeast tomorrow?

WLP0001 Cal Ale is the same as the Safale US-05 from what I remember reading.

I just brewed mine 3 days ago with my fav US-05 and it smells DELICIOUS!