1.122 og

I'm not sure why my OG is all the way up to 1.122. I used 2 5g packs of K1 V1116. I don't really care for sweet meads or wines. Will this ferment down far enough to get it on the dryer side?

Not sure I understand: the gravity is caused by the amount of honey in the must - the more honey in a gallon the higher the initial gravity. A gravity of 1.122 just means that you used 3 lbs of honey in each gallon of must.

That said, wine ain't beer and single packages of wine yeasts are designed to ferment up to 6 gallons of wine at normal ranges of ABV. A gravity of 1.122 is potentially about 19% ABV - which is a little high for most yeasts. What wine-makers tend to do is to step feed their wine (or mead) so that you add more honey as the yeast successfully ferments the sugars at lower gravities. Bottom line - I don't know whether K1 can handle so much sugar and so much alcohol. I think it is designed for wines with a maximum potential ABV of about 15%... Could it handle 19% ? I don't know... and if you add small quantities of honey each time you add then should the yeast succumb to alcohol poisoning the amount of residual honey in the mead will be small - In other words, you will be able ferment your mead towards the drier side...

One possible solution is to further dilute your mead to bring the gravity down but add more of the same honey when the yeast has dropped the gravity close to dry (1.000) so you are working towards the 19% but not starting there... .
If you add very small quantities of honey each time the yeast ferments what you added then should the yeast succumb to alcohol poisoning then your mead will not be excessively sweet - it will only as sweet as the amount of the last batch of honey you added...

bernardsmith said:

Not sure I understand: the gravity is caused by the amount of honey in the must - the more honey in a gallon the higher the initial gravity. A gravity of 1.122 just means that you used 3 lbs of honey in each gallon of must.

That said, wine ain't beer and single packages of wine yeasts are designed to ferment up to 6 gallons of wine at normal ranges of ABV. A gravity of 1.122 is potentially about 19% ABV - which is a little high for most yeasts. What wine-makers tend to do is to step feed their wine (or mead) so that you add more honey as the yeast successfully ferments the sugars at lower gravities. Bottom line - I don't know whether K1 can handle so much sugar and so much alcohol. I think it is designed for wines with a maximum potential ABV of about 15%... Could it handle 19% ? I don't know... and if you add small quantities of honey each time you add then should the yeast succumb to alcohol poisoning the amount of residual honey in the mead will be small - In other words, you will be able ferment your mead towards the drier side...

One possible solution is to further dilute your mead to bring the gravity down but add more of the same honey when the yeast has dropped the gravity close to dry (1.000) so you are working towards the 19% but not starting there... .

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You hit the nail on the head, 3#'s per gal. That yeast is said to stand up to 18%. The must is in the primary, so if I dilute,would I need to add more yeast?

What's the volume? The yeast can ferment say, five or six gallons by volume... If you dilute the mead and you have 10 gallons then I would suggest you use two packs of yeast. If you are fermenting six or seven gallons then that pack is designed to accommodate that volume. The gravity is not the issue - or rather the gravity is a very different issue - the volume is the issue. The gravity is an issue because too much sugar can impair the yeast's ability to transport nutrients through its cell walls and too much alcohol produced from a high sugar must can kill the yeast... If K1 is good for 18 % ABV and your mead is 19 then I would not be concerned... BUT you do want to add yeast nutrient ... honey is notoriously short of nutrients that the yeast need - the result can be stalled fermentations, stressed yeast, build up of hydrogen sulfide and possibly mercaptans...

It's a 5 gal batch. I did add wyeast nutriant and DAP. It has started chugging slowly. I was mosly worried that it would be sweet. I was going to add more nutriant and DAP tomorrow, would that be wise?

I think you're looking at more like 16% than 19%...I could be wrong, but 1116 is good to 18% easy, even higher, perhaps, if "happy" so.....I think you'll be fine with proper nutrients (staggered?), etc.....nevermind, I didn't read bernardsmith's reply...LOL

Is it okay to use wyeast wine neutrient, staggard? It says to use 1/2t per 5 gal, will it give off flavors if I put more in the next day?

Generally, if you need a certain volume of nutrient per gallon, you can stagger it in fourths. Start with 1/4 mixed in the must. Stir and add 1/4 after 24 hours, 48 hours, and when the mead is at it's 1/3 sugar break (has 1/3 of the gravity left, so when it hits 1.04 in your case). Adding it up front is... okay, but "staggered nutrient addition" (SNA) has done me wonders.

another thing that helps is gently stirring the must before that last SNA add. What this does is disturb the dissolved CO2 and get it out. IF your gravity when you do the SNA is very close to the OG, you could seek to stir a bit more vigorously to get better/more aeration - do this only the first 24 hours though. What the stirring does is reduce the partial pressure on the yeast cells so they can better function/absorb new materials into themselves. (or maybe since it is reducing the pressure outside, it allows them to put things outside of their cells easier which makes room for uptake of other materials - anyhow a gentle stir can help. Definitely stop after your last nutrient add) -

If the gravity is to high and won't ferment all the way, you need to add WATER to change the effective SG. given I'm over 24 hours late to this discussion, it might be moot. Although at 8points per ABV, 122 should go to about 1 and be about 16%. I know that ABV isn't linear, so the actually ABV is probably not 16% (but a little higher) if you go from 1.122 to 1.000.

Based on other conversations. I'd not worry about having pitched two packets. While you may only need one, using 2 is likely to have spent money, not harmed product. What I've heard is that if you make 1 gallon or 5, you pitch the entire 5 gram pack of wine yeast. It is fascinating to me that there are well known minimum pitch rates for beer, but no similar information seems to have trickled out for wine or mead. And there are no 'over pitch rates' for any product that I've seen backed up by study.

sheepcat said:

Generally, if you need a certain volume of nutrient per gallon, you can stagger it in fourths. Start with 1/4 mixed in the must. Stir and add 1/4 after 24 hours, 48 hours, and when the mead is at it's 1/3 sugar break (has 1/3 of the gravity left, so when it hits 1.04 in your case). Adding it up front is... okay, but "staggered nutrient addition" (SNA) has done me wonders.

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Sheepcat, have you seen any stuff that says 1/3? I'd always heard 1/2. I'm not sure it matters as long as there is sugar to consume and allows the yeast to consume the stray 02.

I think it was either in the Schramm book, in a newer book, or on here. I'll take a look later on and get back. Either way, as you said, don't know if it'll be a problem as long as you're not adding nutrients after all the sugar is gone!

sheepcat said:

I think it was either in the Schramm book, in a newer book, or on here. I'll take a look later on and get back. Either way, as you said, don't know if it'll be a problem as long as you're not adding nutrients after all the sugar is gone!

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Ok, thanks.!

I think - but I don't consider myself a brewer by any stretch of the imagination - brewers are more concerned about pitch rates for their yeast because they tend to use liquid yeasts and liquid yeasts have far fewer active yeast cells than dry yeasts - hence the tendency for brewers - not wine makers to make or buy stir plates and make yeast starters.

Wine makers tend to pitch their yeasts without any hydration. Since all the sugars in fruit and sap or honey are perfectly fermentable and since wine yeasts are assumed to have attenuation rates of 100 percent (what fruit will not ferment to below 1.000 if coddled appropriately?)..with beer tho' if you mash too hot (I think) or the sugars added in adjuncts are too complex or the molecular structure is too long the yeast will move on to sugars that are easier for it to convert...

bernardsmith said:

I think - but I don't consider myself a brewer by any stretch of the imagination - brewers are more concerned about pitch rates for their yeast because they tend to use liquid yeasts and liquid yeasts have far fewer active yeast cells than dry yeasts - hence the tendency for brewers - not wine makers to make or buy stir plates and make yeast starters.

Wine makers tend to pitch their yeasts without any hydration. Since all the sugars in fruit and sap or honey are perfectly fermentable and since wine yeasts are assumed to have attenuation rates of 100 percent (what fruit will not ferment to below 1.000 if coddled appropriately?)..with beer tho' if you mash too hot (I think) or the sugars added in adjuncts are too complex or the molecular structure is too long the yeast will move on to sugars that are easier for it to convert...

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While this is true on the face of it, it seems like wine makers should be more worried since the sugar count is higher and the nitrogen count is lower - yeah we put in some yeast nutrient, but nothing like the extras from a good brewers mash. And wine yeast is 1/2 the size of beer yeast (dry) at 5 grams not 11 grams.

Since the effect of this can be 'stressed yeast' which produce 'off flavors' this brings to mind are these flavors not off in wine but are in beer? Are they not produced as much because the fruits are generally just glucose and fructose sugars and not more complex ones? and possibly one or two other questions with the answer to all them being "yes these are all variable factors"....

>shrug<

Good questions. I guess all I can say is that from my few years of experience making wines I have yet to have worked with a stressed yeast or with a wine that produced "off flavors" and I know no wine maker with any experience who is anxious about using a) more than one package of yeast for every 5 gallons of must and b) considers the need for a starter for any wine other than something like "skeeter pee".

I add nutrient several times during the first few days of fermentation, aerate the wine during the active fermentation (ferment in a cloth covered bucket), ferment at the coolest temperatures preferred by the yeasts I use.. and generally, do not aim for a higher starting gravity than about 1.090 (about 12% ABV).

I make wines from fruit, from nuts (cocoa and coffee) from flowers, and from honey and as I say, I have yet to experience off flavors caused by stressed yeast. Perhaps I am simply lucky...

Ditto bernardsmith's post

bernardsmith said:

Good questions. I guess all I can say is that from my few years of experience making wines I have yet to have worked with a stressed yeast or with a wine that produced "off flavors" and I know no wine maker with any experience who is anxious about using a) more than one package of yeast for every 5 gallons of must and b) considers the need for a starter for any wine other than something like "skeeter pee".

I add nutrient several times during the first few days of fermentation, aerate the wine during the active fermentation (ferment in a cloth covered bucket), ferment at the coolest temperatures preferred by the yeasts I use.. and generally, do not aim for a higher starting gravity than about 1.090 (about 12% ABV).

I make wines from fruit, from nuts (cocoa and coffee) from flowers, and from honey and as I say, I have yet to experience off flavors caused by stressed yeast. Perhaps I am simply lucky...

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Well by chance I tumbled upon this today http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/yeast.asp Jack Keller's discussion of yeast. I was looking for a recipe and noticed this page there. Anyhow, he mentions rehydrating the yeast, and making starters. And he does this for 3 reasons. First you pitch more, so there is a shorter growth phase, and probably shorter lag phase - there is certainly no rehydration bit. Thus a faster ferment.
Second, insuring viability of the yeast pack. - for this he blames handling in transit as perhaps killing off yeast in the package.
Third, the yeast will be more acclimatized to the must and 'explode into action' which really seems like a continuation of the first - shorter active fermentation phase.

He does not mention 'off flavors' like beer makers do, with the exception of a general idea that if you are making from scratch (not kits) other bacteria could get into the wine ahead of the yeast, possibly damaging it.

This answers some of my question, but not all of it... >shrug<... anyhow found that you need about 3lb of peaches per gallon of must

I guess I think that 3 lbs /gallon of fruit makes for a very thin flavored wine... but hey! to each his or her own.. Beer makers use water .. wine makers are better served by using the juice they express from the fruit... but that is simply my opinion (I don't drink diluted fruit juice - so I don't dilute the juice I ferment )...

bernardsmith said:

I guess I think that 3 lbs /gallon of fruit makes for a very thin flavored wine... but hey! to each his or her own.. Beer makers use water .. wine makers are better served by using the juice they express from the fruit... but that is simply my opinion (I don't drink diluted fruit juice - so I don't dilute the juice I ferment )...

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The recipes had more than that in it - in fact it specified that peach is rather thin, and needs something like grape juice or raisins to help it out... I just needed a bench mark for the peaches themselves for later acquisitions.

To go 100% peaches, well I've found that with most fruit, the quantity of juice acquired is usually no more than 50% by weight, so as abase 16lb per gallon at 100% juice (and only juice, no water). But many wine recipes are # pounds plus sugar plus water to 1 gallon.

ACbrewer said:

The recipes had more than that in it - in fact it specified that peach is rather thin, and needs something like grape juice or raisins to help it out... I just needed a bench mark for the peaches themselves for later acquisitions.

To go 100% peaches, well I've found that with most fruit, the quantity of juice acquired is usually no more than 50% by weight, so as abase 16lb per gallon at 100% juice (and only juice, no water). But many wine recipes are # pounds plus sugar plus water to 1 gallon.

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I agree... and I guess that is why I don't use published recipes - for some reason most of the published recipes are really more about fermenting sugar water, flavored with some fruit. Me? I prefer to ferment the fruit - and leave the water for sanitizing my equipment or for flower wines, meads and beer. Those liquors really need water. Fruit comes pre-packaged with all the water it - and I need (bananas may be one exception) ...

If using enough fruit to make a batch of wine is too expensive then I vote to make a smaller batch and not a more diluted batch - The two other exceptions I am aware of are wines from oranges and wines from cranberries - and the reason is that both oranges and cranberries seem to me to be too tart for wine without the addition of a little water to cut the acidity. But to add water to strawberries or water to papayas or mangoes to make strawberry or papaya or mango wine is not my cup of tea... extract the juice and ferment that juice (add sugar to increase the ABV - mangoes are not wine grapes, but don't add water to dilute the flavor)

Update- Just took a reading on this, 1.030, still quite sweet of course but no off flavors and there is still activity in the airlock. One month ago it was 1.040 so it is still dropping. Is it okay to leave it on the yeast and keep fermenting?

yeah by all means let it go. You can leave it for at least 6 months with no issue

So it will continue to drop in gravity for that long of a period? Can I do anything at this point to speed this up?