Fermentation question:

I'm brewing a blonde ale. I followed the directions except at the last 10 minutes of the boil I added a cinnamon stick. the whole thing must have disintegrated because it disappeared. Anyway, it's been about 27 hours since pitching the yeast and I'm not getting any activity. Also, the O.G. reading was 1.079. I'm not sure if the cinnamon stick is acting as an antifungal or the OG is too heavy? I'm a little frustrated and don't know how to save this batch. 6 Gallons by the way.

I don't think the cinnamon is causing issues. I've heard on the BN people talk about using cinnamon in the mash to prevent oxidation of the wort (not sure if this is definitive). I think it was for the Monk's Blood... anyway.

1.079 is pretty damn high for a blonde ale, unless you mean a Belgian golden strong. What yeast strain are you using and what did you pitch - smack-pack, starter (what size?), etc.?

wow. 1.079 is super high gravity for a blonde. Post the grain bill/ extracts used as well as the volume collected.

How did you prepare the yeast before pitching. If you just dumped it in you may not see visible signs of fermentation for about 48 hours. Look into doing a 'yeast starter' to get a faster initial fermentation, especially when brewing beers over 1.060.

I would stick to simple recipes with no weird procedures or ingredients until you are sure you have a good process. It will be easier to identify issues with plain beer than beer that has a bunch of herbs, spices, fruit, and crap in it.

When you have a good handle on a recipe and style, then it becomes easy to experiment with non-traditional ingredients.

where did you get your kit? what yeas tdid you use?

yeast strain: White Lab's German Ale/Kolsch Yeast, net volume 35mls. It came in a vial. I took it out of the fridge, got it up to 70degrees, shook the vial opened it and put it in the wort/carboy.
Grains: it was a mix that i got from Seven Bridges Cooperative Organic Home Brewing and Home Coffee Roasting. gambrinus pilsner, great western 2 row malt, briess carpalis, briess caramel.
Extracts: about 1/8 lb of dry malt extract, about 1/2 a gallon of pure malt extract and 1 kilo of corn starch.
Potential alcohol by volume: 8%
BRIX: 15.5%

I may do a starter. Thanks for the info. Any other feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Wow man! 36 hours and the krausen is finally starting to form.

First 12 hours I started to question my actions, at 24 hours i was ready to dump this one and brew another, at 26 hours i talked myself into figuring out the problem. This morning, at 36 hours, the Krausen is doing it's thing, and I'm one happy amatuer!

Strange: I posted all my ingredients, specifications, methods and where I bought the stuff...twice. And, those 2 posts have not shown up yet? What's up with that? I have to wait for a moderator to review?

mtg4772 said:

Wow man! 36 hours and the krausen is finally starting to form.

First 12 hours I started to question my actions, at 24 hours i was ready to dump this one and brew another, at 26 hours i talked myself into figuring out the problem. This morning, at 36 hours, the Krausen is doing it's thing, and I'm one happy amatuer!

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Patience is the key!

Thanks!

I'm glad you've got an active fermentation, but I'm still confused as to how a kit Blond can even get close to 1.079! Was this a partial boil and you took the gravity before adding top-off water? Not trying to be smart, just thought there may be another issue to address

Grizzlybrew said:

I'm glad you've got an active fermentation, but I'm still confused as to how a kit Blond can even get close to 1.079! Was this a partial boil and you took the gravity before adding top-off water? Not trying to be smart, just thought there may be another issue to address

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Well, we mashed and sparged 8 pounds of grain, boiled it for an hour (maybe 5 minutes less than an hour, but we were watching the clock pretty closely). We did add more sugar than the recipe called for because I wanted a higher alcohol content. I figured more sugar contributed to the heavier OG. I took the OG right after it was cooled down to 70degrees. If I remember right, the recipe said the OG should be between 1.064 and 1.070. I'm a little bit outside the window, but happy with it. Go check out Richard's farmhouse blonde ale at 7 bridges, that is the recipe I followed. You're making me think I did something really wrong?

I'll be happy to address any other issues. I want a quality beer. Thanks for the guidance. I really appreciate it.

mtg4772 said:

Well, we mashed and sparged 8 pounds of grain, boiled it for an hour (maybe 5 minutes less than an hour, but we were watching the clock pretty closely). We did add more sugar than the recipe called for because I wanted a higher alcohol content. I figured more sugar contributed to the heavier OG. I took the OG right after it was cooled down to 70degrees. If I remember right, the recipe said the OG should be between 1.064 and 1.070. I'm a little bit outside the window, but happy with it. Go check out Richard's farmhouse blonde ale at 7 bridges, that is the recipe I followed. You're making me think I did something really wrong?

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You can add sugar to a recipe to add alcohol. Certainly if you want a good kick, this strategy will work well. However, beers with this level of alcohol can be tricky to get a good balance. The sugar will ferment almost 100% and leave very little body. If the beer is too alcoholic, overwhelming the residual malt and hop flavors, then make sure to eliminate it next time. Keep in mind that most brewers consider anything over 1.060 to result in a high alcohol content.

I mostly brew beers in the 1.040-1.050 range so I can drink 2 or 5 and still function the next day.

If you don't like it you can always brew again!

You did correct for temp with your grav reading, right? Did you use an ATC refrac or a hydrometer?

prrriiide said:

You did correct for temp with your grav reading, right? Did you use an ATC refrac or a hydrometer?

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I believe he states that the OG was measured at 70 degrees. Shouldn't need a correction. Your hydrometer is probably calibrated for 68 degrees or so. I wouldn't think a couple of degrees can make a big change.

HopLife said:

I believe he states that the OG was measured at 70 degrees. Shouldn't need a correction. Your hydrometer is probably calibrated for 68 degrees or so. I wouldn't think a couple of degrees can make a big change.

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I did adust for the temperature; I added .001 to my reading. That's what my chart said to do. I used a hydrometer. I'm not familiar with the other thing you mentioned.

Thanks for the info. I'm learning a lot from this dialogue!

HopLife said:

You can add sugar to a recipe to add alcohol. Certainly if you want a good kick, this strategy will work well. However, beers with this level of alcohol can be tricky to get a good balance. The sugar will ferment almost 100% and leave very little body. If the beer is too alcoholic, overwhelming the residual malt and hop flavors, then make sure to eliminate it next time. Keep in mind that most brewers consider anything over 1.060 to result in a high alcohol content.

I mostly brew beers in the 1.040-1.050 range so I can drink 2 or 5 and still function the next day.

If you don't like it you can always brew again!

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I'm very interested in this balance you mentioned. I'm not real clear on how the characteristics of the beer and ingredients interact. Maybe if I add more sugar I should add the hops earlier in the boil? or increase hops?

Oh well. I'll let you know how this batch turns out. I hope to boil an IPA this weekend. But the IPA ingredients belong to my brother, so it's up to him if we brew or not.

Wow, that is a HIGH OG for sure. Glad things kicked in. If your yeast was still "waking up" from being in the fridge (even though it was up to temp) that might have accounted for the slow start. I'd recommend making a starter. Since I've been making starters, I'm doing it for all my brews (though it's not necessary.)

Check out my blog post about making a yeast starter: Culturing Yeast (Making a Starter) from Bottled Conditioned Ale | The Brew Garden

In my case, I made it from yeast captured from a Fullers 1845, but the same principle applies.

The vial of yeast you mentioned typically isn't enough to get a great fermentation on many beers - especially for one with such a high OG. For anything over.... Say 1.050 you really need a starter (regardless of what it says on the package) and I personally wouldn't attempt any beer without a starter while using liquid yeast.

Not to say you won't make beer (you will and you will probably enjoy it), but pitching a single vial of yeast into that big a gravity will more than likely stress the yeast and contribute off flavors into your final product. You want the true flavors o yeast, malt, and hops to shine - not be joined by unwanted flavors. Mr. Malty website has a great yeast pitch calculator to use as a guide. I don't use it religiously, but it's a great guide to point you in the right direction.

You mentioned the OG came to ~1.070... Based on the grainbill of 8 lbs in 5 gallons, my estimate of OG would be around 1.040 (didn't do the math exactly, but I should be in the ballpark). My concern is that to jump from 1.040 to 1.070 with just a simple addition of sugar requires a metric ton of sugar. Because simple sugar ferments completely out, it appears that 40% of the makeup of your OG adds no flavor, which in turn will dilute the flavors you do have.

Adjuncts (of the simple sugar variety) should be only a very small portion of your total grainbill. For a grainbill your size, I wouldn't add more than .5 lb of sugar (roughly speaking .6% abv - again not doing the exact math) unless you are trying to dry out the beer.

I would absolutely echo an earlier poster - get comfortable doing normal recipes and then tweak. I enjoy a skull-splitter as much as the next guy, but I'd much rather have a lower abv I really like than a monster abv that I'm lukewarm about. But that's me. Enjoy what you have! Sorry for the book.

mtg4772 said:

I'm not familiar with the other thing you mentioned.

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A refractometer with automatic temperature correction. It's ideal for measuring the OG of unfermented wort.

I'm assuming that your wort temp was fairly close to your yeast temp when you pitched?

cimirie makes some really good points about the sugar levels.

FWIW my hydrometer is calibrated to 60 degrees. At 70 degrees it would be corrected by adding 1 point.

IMO the lag time was because of not pitching the proper amount of yeast.

mrmalty.com suggests 5.7 vials for 6 gallons at that gravity.

The yeast had a LOT of reproducing to do to get to sufficient numbers to ferment that wort.

Research starters at mrmalty.com and YeastCalc Yeast Calculator

You will have to just ride it out now and hope the yeast weren't too stressed in the beginning producing any off flavors.

Let us know how it ends up.

Grizzlybrew said:

1.079 is pretty damn high for a blonde ale, unless you mean a Belgian golden strong.

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mtg4772 said:

Go check out Richard's farmhouse blonde ale at 7 bridges, that is the recipe I followed. You're making me think I did something really wrong?

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Your post above confirmed my suspicion from the time I saw the word 'farmhouse'. I checked out the site and saw the recipe listed as a Belgian Golden Strong winner. It makes perfect sense. I think some (including myself) originally thought you were brewing a blond/kolsch-type ale. I think the numbers are fine. Nothing wrong at all as long as you manage your fermentation well.

+1 to the starter comments, especially in big beers like this. Even the original recipe without sugar added could have used a starter for healthy fermentation.

Grizzlybrew said:

Your post above confirmed my suspicion from the time I saw the word 'farmhouse'. I checked out the site and saw the recipe listed as a Belgian Golden Strong winner. It makes perfect sense. I think some (including myself) originally thought you were brewing a blond/kolsch-type ale. I think the numbers are fine. Nothing wrong at all as long as you manage your fermentation well.

+1 to the starter comments, especially in big beers like this. Even the original recipe without sugar added could have used a starter for healthy fermentation.

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Man! That makes me feel a lot better! Thanks!

I read the blog on creating a yeast starter, but maybe someone can refer to more resources so I get a better idea what this "yeast starter" really means?

A yeast starter is a way to increase the yeast count that you pitch into your wort. You're basically just making a minature batch of beer with out the hops. Boil 1000ml of water 100 grams of light dry malt extract for 15 minutes to sanitize and then cool to pitching temps, pour into a sanitzed jug, aerate it like you normally would, pitch the yeast and cover the top with some sanitized foil.

Then over the course of next few days give the jug a shake evertime you walk by it. The yeast will multiply significantly and won't have to work so hard reproducing once pitched into your wort which leads to less stressed out yeast and potential off flavors, will also decrease lag time.

Check out Mr Malty. And you can play around with the numbers.
Also I believe the 10 to 1 ration is about the norm. You want your starter gravity to be around 1.040 range so the yeast don't get stressed out.

Yeast starter is simple. You are taking the yeast you have on hand, and making a mini-batch of beer for them to munch on. While they are waking up and munching they are multiplying. The number of yeast in a white labs vile is ~100 billion. When you make a starter of say 150grams of DME and 1.5 liters of water that will increase the total yeast count to ~177billion cells. Or you could pitch 2 vials of the same yeast and have similar results. The difference is when you make a starter you can more accuratly match your yeast cell count to your wort SG and the biggie for me, it is cheaper to make a starter than it is to buy another vial of yeast. Another advantage in a starter is all the yeast are awake and multiplying so there is a shorter lag period p before fermentation begins. Well that's my $.02 worth.

With a yeast starter you are basically making a small volume of wort out of water and light DME. Boil about 1/2-2/3 a cup of DME in 750 ml for 10 mins. Than cool the wort in ice bath to 70 degrees. Pitch your vial of yeast into a flask with the wort cover with foil give it a good shake once in awhile. Some people, including myself, put the flask on a stir plate so nits constantly mixing. The starter wakes up the yeast and it reproduces so you have a larger culture to pour into your wort. When you under pitch yeast it can cause off favors in your beer because the yeast are more stressed out

Also. I would recommend doing the starter for only a day. There isn't much sugar in there for all that yeast to eat. It will be done very quickly. You want to pitch it right when it finishes or stick it in the fridge and decant off extra fluid. It will stress out your yeast if you leave it in the starter for several days

This is the instructions from Wyeast on making a starter

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_makingastarter.cfm

At 72 degreesF: FG: 1.020, added .001 for the temp so 1.021
% alcohol volume 2.5% so 5.5% I was hoping for higher.
Balling: 5%
Not bad for my 3rd batch. Gonna try the yeast starter next time. What else can I do to improve?

mtg4772 said:

At 72 degreesF: FG: 1.020, added .001 for the temp so 1.021
% alcohol volume 2.5% so 5.5% I was hoping for higher.
Balling: 5%
Not bad for my 3rd batch. Gonna try the yeast starter next time. What else can I do to improve?

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Actually it should be 1.019 because the warmer wort the less dense it is.

doktorhook said:

Actually it should be 1.019 because the warmer wort the less dense it is.

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My hydrometer instructions indicate to add the .001 to the 1.020 reading.

This batch has been force carbonating for 2 weeks. Is it still too late to dry hop?

in the keg? No. Not at All. Sometimes I'll have a beer in there for a month and decide that it needs dry-hopping. I sanitize the lid of the keg (spray with starsan), open the top minimally and throw the hops in.

I believe the yeast did get stressed and produced off flavors. Live and learn. At least I know how to make a yeast starter now.

Do u think dry hopping will offset some of the off flavors from the stressed yeast?

mtg4772 said:

At 72 degreesF: FG: 1.020, added .001 for the temp so 1.021
% alcohol volume 2.5% so 5.5% I was hoping for higher.
Balling: 5%
Not bad for my 3rd batch. Gonna try the yeast starter next time. What else can I do to improve?

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ABV is calculated as (OG-FG) x 131, so for this beer it would be (1.079-1.021)x131, which gives you just about 7.6% ABV. Seems plenty high enough to me.

JLem said:

ABV is calculated as (OG-FG) x 131, so for this beer it would be (1.079-1.021)x131, which gives you just about 7.6% ABV. Seems plenty high enough to me.

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Very interesting! Thanks for the info!

This batch is all gone, and I gotta say it was incredibly good.

Yeast starters: I'm a believer now!:rockin:

I just started a batch of IPA and all is well, very well.