Sometimes I Think The Beer Gods Are Just F'ing With Me

So under normal conditions, even mashing low, I normally don't get an FG below 1.012. Fine with me, of course, but that's the story.

On Tuesday, I brewed what should one day be a kriek. Following JZ's directions, I mashed high (156F, and yes, my thermo's are calibrated), and even added 6oz of maltodextrin to the boil...then I pitched non-rehydrated S-05, and fermented cold (64F). All of this was my attempt to have a lackluster fermentation and end up with a high FG so that, when I pitched my lambic culture in secondary, they'd have plenty of sugars to munch on.

Yet, between the cold fermentation, the non-rehydrated yeast, the high mash temps and the maltodextrin, the sumbitch finished at 1.010.

So now what? 0.010 is not really that much sugar for those lambic beasts to munch on. I'm thinking of adding a bunch of maltodextrin to secondary...I really don't see any other course at this point. I don't really want the base beer, it's just a wheat/2-row blend with some aged styrian goldings, and it's not that interesting.

So what do you guys think? If I toss maybe 12oz of maltodextrin powder solution into secondary, that should give the bugs plenty to chomp on, no?

Malto dextrine is not fermentable, No?

My understanding is no, not by normal beer yeast, but the lambic culture should eat it up.

EdWort said:

Malto dextrine is not fermentable, No?

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Not by Saccharomyces, no...

jfrizzell said:

My understanding is no, not by normal beer yeast, but the lambic culture should eat it up.

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Exactly. Bacterial cultures like lacto, etc., and maybe even Brett (not sure about that though) can eat the long-chain dextrins (which is what maltodex is). That's why sour beers finish so much lower (FG), because the long-chain dextrins that would normally be unfermentable by saccharomyces are munched on by the bugs.

So...any thoughts on this plan?

If you have enough head space you could whip up a small starter and pitch with the bugs, AFAIK that should work

Next time drop your mash time to 40 minutes to decrease the attenuation.

BierMuncher said:

Next time drop your mash time to 40 minutes to decrease the attenuation.

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Next time I'm makin' a lambic, I'll keep it in mind

niquejim said:

If you have enough head space you could whip up a small starter and pitch with the bugs, AFAIK that should work

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I'm not so worried about the bugs getting started as I am about them having enough sugars, over the course of a year, to produce enough sourness to rival, say, Cantillon's base unblended lambic. Hell, I didn't make a starter for my roeselare activator pack and it's roaring along right now.

Evan! said:

I'm not so worried about the bugs getting started as I am about them having enough sugars, over the course of a year, to produce enough sourness to rival, say, Cantillon's base unblended lambic. Hell, I didn't make a starter for my roeselare activator pack and it's roaring along right now.

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But this goes along with what I said a couple days ago. Breweries like Cantillon aren't fermenting with a neutral yeast first. They're going straight to the barrels that are innoculated with the bugs straight from their boil.

You can't expect to rival a true lambic when you're fermenting with Sacc first.

PseudoChef said:

But this goes along with what I said a couple days ago. Breweries like Cantillon aren't fermenting with a neutral yeast first. They're going straight to the barrels that are innoculated with the bugs straight from their boil.

You can't expect to rival a true lambic when you're fermenting with Sacc first.

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Right, I know, but I'm gonna get close, hopefully, following JZ's directions, without having to blend. He hasn't steered me wrong so far

I think you're on the right path in boiling up some maltodextrin and adding it to secondary. Will the bugs also eat simple sugars like sucrose and maltose? I realize that you don't have any of them left if you're at 1.010, but you could always add some to secondary as well.

What was your target FG, anyway?

ohiobrewtus said:

I think you're on the right path in boiling up some maltodextrin and adding it to secondary. Will the bugs also eat simple sugars like sucrose and maltose? I realize that you don't have any of them left if you're at 1.010, but you could always add some to secondary as well.

What was your target FG, anyway?

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I was shooting for anywhere in the 1.020's.

The bugs will eat simple sugars too. Yeah, what I think I'll do is make a nice little 15-minute mini-boil with DME and MD powder, and add it to the secondary fermenter. I'm planning on taking a higher-than-normal amount of the yeast cake with me to secondary this time so the bugs will have some saccharomyces to cannibalize after they're done with the sugars. This will give it some barnyardy character, but not too much so.

Anyway, I'm probably gonna leave it alone till I hear back from JZ.

So if my math is correct the 6oz of maltodextrin should have added 3 points of unfermentables. So you could say you really ended at 1.070, right? That is strange.

Could your hydrometer be busted?

Beerrific said:

So if my math is correct the 6oz of maltodextrin should have added 3 points of unfermentables. So you could say you really ended at 1.070, right? That is strange.

Could your hydrometer be busted?

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You mean 1.007.

Nah, it's calibrated too. Just too weird...

If you have another free 6.5 gal carboy, you could do a mini-mash and boil up 1 gallon of unfermented wort, aged hops and everything. Rack the old beer off the yeast and onto the 1 gallon and pitch the bugs. Sure, there'd still be Sacc in there, but it'd be better than nothing.

PseudoChef said:

If you have another free 6.5 gal carboy, you could do a mini-mash and boil up 1 gallon of unfermented wort, aged hops and everything. Rack the old beer off the yeast and onto the 1 gallon and pitch the bugs. Sure, there'd still be Sacc in there, but it'd be better than nothing.

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The presence of saccharomyces should add to the barnyardy character (which I like in a lambic) because the bacteria will eventually cannibalize the sacch cells, which produces that typical lambic "funk".

From Jamil just now:

Evan,

Add your bugs, wait a couple months, then you can just toss in some malt extract or corn sugar. By that time, the yeast is all dead and it will be up to the bugs to reduce the carbs back down.



brew strong,
JZ

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dead? do the bugs eat the yeast?

DeathBrewer said:

dead? do the bugs eat the yeast?

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yeah, like I said above, the bugs end up eating the dead saccharomyces cells (sort of like autolysis) and the result is that typical barnyardy "funk" that you get from traditional lambic brewers like Cantillon, Hanssens and Boon.

Hmmm... Jamil is good. I would have felt so smart if I could have thought of that.

Death- yes the bugs will chew through the dead sacc.

nice, i see it now...cannibalize...how delightfully morbid :cross:

Evan! said:

The presence of saccharomyces should add to the barnyardy character (which I like in a lambic) because the bacteria will eventually cannibalize the sacch cells, which produces that typical lambic "funk".

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DeathBrewer said:

nice, i see it now...cannibalize...how delightfully morbid :cross:

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hehe, I know. Actually it was a poor choice of words, as one is yeast and the other is bacteria, and by definition, cannibalize means "the eating of the flesh of an animal by another animal of the same kind".

yeah, you should have said "slaughters and devours"