Better Bottle carboys for fermentation, aging and CARBONATION ?

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brewman !

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Things have changed since I last brewed beers !

I am looking for a vessel system for primary fermentation, secondary fermentation, aging and carbonation.

I am strongly considering using Better Bottle carboys.

http://www.better-bottle.com/products_master.html

Could I use a better bottle carboy for the following:

1) Primary fermentation. A no brainer, right ? I like the air lock products that are made for the Better Bottle carboys.

2) Secondary fermentation. A no brainer, right ? I like the ability to use CO2 to push the beer from one carboy to the other through the optional racking valve.

Now, here is something interesting. Several local brewing stores carry the Better Bottle carboys. But none carry the carboys with the racking port. In fact one shop told me that the Better Bottle racking valves leak. Can anyone comment on this from experience ? Do the valves leak ? How about under pressure ?

3) Long term storage and carbonization.

OK, here is where I start to wonder. I guess a Better Bottle carboy would work well for long term storage. I'd like to take that one step further and put the carboy in the fridge and pressurize it with CO2 and serve beer right from the carboy. The carboys are rated for 14.5PSI and have a working temp range down to -30C.

Is anyone using Better Bottle carboys in this manner ? Does anyone see a problem ?


If the Better Bottle racking valve leaks, has anyone built a racking valve that doesn't leak ?

Thanks.
 
Well, I use BBs only for secondary, and I have a racking port. It does not leak at all, but either I'm a moron (entirely possible) or they aren't that great. When I open it fully, it goes so slowly through the tubing into my bottling bucket that it's just faster to siphon it with my racking tube. It's more than a trickle, but not much more than that. I love the BB, though, and am hoping to get a couple more. I'll save a couple dollars, though, and get the unported ones.

I don't use it for primary, because I don't think they come big enough for me to primary in them. Otherwise, I would. Now I still just use my primary bucket.

It never occurred to me to use it instead of a keg- off the top of my head, I'd say "No.". First of all, they are clear and I'm not sure I'd store it in a clear container. The plastic seems a bit "flimsy" to me and I wouldn't think it would really hold up that well under pressure. And what would you use for a seal? Any carboy cap and/or bung would blow off under pressure. These BB carboys are super lightweight and wonderful for fermentation, but I'm not sure it would be good for carbonating in.

Lorena
 
The first thing I notice is that there doesn't appear to be a bung for the Better Bottle carboys that is designed to handle significant pressure. That doesn't mean one couldn't be made. Any ideas ?
 
Secondary fermentation. A no brainer, right ? I like the ability to use CO2 to push the beer from one carboy to the other through the optional racking valve.
Click to expand...

I do that with glass carboys, no extra equipment neaded

I like the air lock products that are made for the Better Bottle carboys
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Can't see why you'd need more than this.

CCap.jpg

vinty_airlock.jpg


But I'd say go for what ever you feel happier with.


My main concern would be scratching, cleaning, holding flavours.
 
Thanks for replying !

Well, I use BBs only for secondary, and I have a racking port. It does not leak at all, but either I'm a moron (entirely possible) or they aren't that great. When I open it fully, it goes so slowly through the tubing into my bottling bucket that it's just faster to siphon it with my racking tube. It's more than a trickle, but not much more than that.
Click to expand...

Well that is a great thing to know. Do you have the new style valve or the old style ? Apparently there was an update to the valves at some point in time.

Being that I can't find a ported BB, I might make a bung that will support 15PSI of pressure and that I can insert a racking tube through as well.

I love the BB, though, and am hoping to get a couple more. I'll save a couple dollars, though, and get the unported ones.
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That is great info for me. Thanks again for sharing.

I don't use it for primary, because I don't think they come big enough for me to primary in them. Otherwise, I would. Now I still just use my primary bucket.
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Funny you say that. I sent BB an email asking for larger carboys !

It never occurred to me to use it instead of a keg- off the top of my head, I'd say "No.". First of all, they are clear and I'm not sure I'd store it in a clear container.
Click to expand...

One could shield them with a blanket or put them in a dark room. Mine will probably reside in a fridge.

The plastic seems a bit "flimsy" to me and I wouldn't think it would really hold up that well under pressure.
Click to expand...

So are plastic pop bottles. But a plastic Coke bottle will hold 40 PSI without too much trouble. BB rates their carboys for 15 PSI, which should be enough for carbonation.

And what would you use for a seal? Any carboy cap and/or bung would blow off under pressure. These BB carboys are super lightweight and wonderful for fermentation, but I'm not sure it would be good for carbonating in.
Click to expand...

I don't know what I would use for a cap. I'm now starting to think that the distilled water bottles might be worth checking out. The first thing I would do is pressurize them to 15 PSI and see exactly how porous they are.

I'd love to hear more discussion on this.
 
My main concern would be scratching, cleaning, holding flavours.
Click to expand...

All the shops I'm talking to speak highly of the BBs. The BB website goes to great lengths to discuss flavoring. It is interesting reading.
 
Using CO2 to move the ale from primary to clearing and clearing to priming bucket would only take a few psi, so no biggie.

Cornies are rated at 135 psi, so we have a huge safety margin. I have a serious problem operating something close to its design pressure for long periods and 14.5 psi is only two volumes, not enough for many brews. Having seen a 2-liter bottle explode, I would hate to be within 100 feet of a five gallon better bottle cutting loose.
 
brewman ! said:
Thanks for replying !



Well that is a great thing to know. Do you have the new style valve or the old style ? Apparently there was an update to the valves at some point in time.


I don't know- I've had it about 3 months or so. I assume it is a "new" one. It's label "Hi-flow" valve or something like that. It was fairly easy to put together, but still a bit of a PITA to do it. They don't come assembled- you get the BB with a hole in it and the valve assembly. I was expected it to be like the valve on my bottling bucket, but it's a little different. Not really a big deal, but I don't use it. I should have just got a regular BB.

I like racking better from my glass carboy- I have the carboy cap pictured in an above post, and I put my racking cane through the middle hole. I blow into the other hole, and BOOM. Got a siphon. That carboy cap does NOT fit the BB properly. It fits my 5 gallon glass carboy perfectly, though. I haven't had any smell/odor or scratches in the BB. But I've only done about 4 or 5 batches of beer with it.

The only advantage I see that the BB has over glass is being light weight and unbreakable. Otherwise, glass wins over the BB.

Lorena
Click to expand...
 
I like racking better from my glass carboy- I have the carboy cap pictured in an above post, and I put my racking cane through the middle hole. I blow into the other hole
Click to expand...

That's the way I do it but with a quick squirt of CO2.
 
Using CO2 to move the ale from primary to clearing and clearing to priming bucket would only take a few psi, so no biggie.
Click to expand...

It can take a few more PSI if one is filtering. But yes, only a few PSI.

Cornies are rated at 135 psi, so we have a huge safety margin. I have a serious problem operating something close to its design pressure for long periods and 14.5 psi is only two volumes, not enough for many brews.
Click to expand...

I don't know if you are an engineer or not, but a vessel designed to be operated at X PSI is usually designed to withstand a pressure of 2X or 3X, leaving a large safety margin.

Mythbusters had an episode about bottle air rockets. The first incarnation used pop bottles. I believe the second carnation used water cooler bottles. I think they went to 40PSI or so. I never paid attention at the time.

Having seen a 2-liter bottle explode, I would hate to be within 100 feet of a five gallon better bottle cutting loose.
Click to expand...

Mythbusters blew the water cooler bottle straight up. I think it went about 50 feet in the air. Nothing lethal. I'd be way, way more concerned with pressurizing a glass carboy because it if blew, glass could fly.

Do you have the new style valve or the old style ? Apparently there was an update to the valves at some point in time.

I don't know- I've had it about 3 months or so. I assume it is a "new" one. It's label "Hi-flow" valve or something like that.
Click to expand...

That is a new style valve.

It was fairly easy to put together, but still a bit of a PITA to do it. They don't come assembled- you get the BB with a hole in it and the valve assembly. I was expected it to be like the valve on my bottling bucket, but it's a little different. Not really a big deal, but I don't use it. I should have just got a regular BB.
Click to expand...

I'll learn from your experience and purchase a plain carboy.

I like racking better from my glass carboy- I have the carboy cap pictured in an above post, and I put my racking cane through the middle hole. I blow into the other hole, and BOOM. Got a siphon. That carboy cap does NOT fit the BB properly. It fits my 5 gallon glass carboy perfectly, though. I haven't had any smell/odor or scratches in the BB. But I've only done about 4 or 5 batches of beer with it.
Click to expand...

The more I think about it, the more I like sticking the racking cane in the neck and pressurizing the carboy. Especially if the cane plugs, I can pull it out and clear it and start it over again. That would be pretty hard to do with the racking valve. I guess I have too many horrible experiences racking fruit wines !

The only advantage I see that the BB has over glass is being light weight and unbreakable. Otherwise, glass wins over the BB.
Click to expand...

The ability to handle more pressure and possibly carbonation is big for me. They don't appear to cost much more than glass. I like the dry air lock that is available too, especially for aging. Several times I've had air lock sterilizer sucked into the carboy.

Hmmm.... lots to think about here.
 
I use my better bottles with the the racking port as secondarys. No leaks and mine comes out just fine. I would recommend them.
 
1. Anyone who uses the safety margin is NOT an engineer. And I am.

2. I'm talking about a 2 liter bottle exploding, not flying through the air. It covered a 100 foot radius with plastic fragments. Which, I assure you, cut through a number of things.

3. Sounds like you'll be doing this regardless of what anyone says.
 
Anyone who uses the safety margin is NOT an engineer. And I am.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... I might be missing something, but we recently did some pressure vessel design and a safety factor was used.

Yes, I'll be pressurizing my BB.

I am an engineer too. A real one, with a degree. The BB carboy has an operating pressure limit is 14.5PSI. To me that means someone designed the vessel be used at pressures up to... wait for it... 14.5PSI ! Why I should be afraid to operate a vessel at its rated operating pressure ?

I'm not going to comment on your exploding pop bottle scenario other than to say I'll continue to consume pop without worry.

I'm talking about a 2 liter bottle exploding, not flying through the air. It covered a 100 foot radius with plastic fragments. Which, I assure you, cut through a number of things.
Click to expand...

Mythbusters blew up at least one pop bottle and one cooler bottle to determine the burst limits. I'll be watching reruns to see how they failed. If I remember correctly, the wall split open. No catastrophic shattering failure. No flying debris.
 
Just because the design specs say that it has a pressure limit of 14.5 psi does not mean that the manufacturer ever intended for Better-Bottles to be used as pressure vessels. I have been using Better-Bottles for over a year now. I have four of them, all with racking adapters and high flow valves. They work perfectly and I have never had any of them leak.

I think you are wasting your time, but I'm sure from reading your posts and noting that you are an engineer, a real one, with a degree, that you couldn't care less what I think. Best of luck to you.

John
 
Please explain to me why, if the manufacturer rates the carboys as being good to 14.5PSI and if 14.5PSI gives me a suitable level of carbonation

a) I shouldn't use them as carbonation vessels ?

b) I am wasting my time ?

Coke bottles weren't intended to be used as carbonation vessels either. But they sure work well ! (I carbonated a wine with coke bottles once.)
 
A coke bottle, or any soda bottle for that matter has a threaded top and a threaded cap with a gasket to seal it. A Better-Bottle does not. I use nitrogen through the 90˚ barb fitting and ported closure to speed up the transfer sometimes and if I get more than about 1 psi the ported closure gets blown out.

I know you wrote that you were thinking of a way to seal up the opening somehow, but I just think that is a waste of time and thought, when there are more purpose built alternatives available.

As far as the pressure limit is concerned, I think this is a perfect example of... Just because you could does not mean that you should.

Give Better-Bottle a call at 1-800-435-4585 and ask one of their engineers about it. I have called them several times with questions and have found them to be very helpful.

John
 
JnJ said:
I use my better bottles with the the racking port as secondarys. No leaks and mine comes out just fine. I would recommend them.
Click to expand...
Same here.

As for using a Better Bottle like a keg - I don't see anything wrong with it from the safety standpoint, but I'm not gonna pioneer the effort either. I like cornies, and I can get them cheaper than Better Bottles anyway (www.homebrewing.org).
 
I did some investigation. The neck of the BB could be sealed up by making a cork using 1.75" PET plastic rod (www.mcmastercarr.com, item #8598K17). The cork would have to have a groove in it for an O Ring (9464K301)

The cork could then be drilled and tapped for a 1/4 or 3/8" NPT port.

There will be some force on the cork, tending to push it out.

Force = pressure x area = 14.5PSI x 1.77"^2 x pi/4 = 14.5 x 2.46 = 35.7 pounds

The BB neck has ridges on it. One could use some wire and possibly a hose clamp to secure the cork just like a cork is secured in a champagne bottle.

The 1/4" NPT port could both admit CO2 and hold a racking cane or pickup tube for dispensing a finished brew.


Edit: I just measured my keg fridge and the BBs will NOT be a good fit at all. I could get only one BB in the fridge, whereas I could get 4 cornies. I guess I will keep my cornies and carbonate and serve from them. I'll still do primary, secondary and aging in the BBs. The only thing I don't like about that is the cornies are too small !
 
lorenae said:
brewman ! said:
Thanks for replying !



Well that is a great thing to know. Do you have the new style valve or the old style ? Apparently there was an update to the valves at some point in time.


I don't know- I've had it about 3 months or so. I assume it is a "new" one. It's label "Hi-flow" valve or something like that. It was fairly easy to put together, but still a bit of a PITA to do it. They don't come assembled- you get the BB with a hole in it and the valve assembly. I was expected it to be like the valve on my bottling bucket, but it's a little different. Not really a big deal, but I don't use it. I should have just got a regular BB.

I like racking better from my glass carboy- I have the carboy cap pictured in an above post, and I put my racking cane through the middle hole. I blow into the other hole, and BOOM. Got a siphon. That carboy cap does NOT fit the BB properly. It fits my 5 gallon glass carboy perfectly, though. I haven't had any smell/odor or scratches in the BB. But I've only done about 4 or 5 batches of beer with it.

The only advantage I see that the BB has over glass is being light weight and unbreakable. Otherwise, glass wins over the BB.

Lorena
Click to expand...

I have the BB with the hi-flow valve and it works just fine. It's a bit slower than my racking cane, but that's because I'm using the 1/4" tubing for racking. You may want to blow some CO2 through the valve, from the outside, to ensure there is no gunk stuck in it. Do that with fluid in the bottle to give a bit more back pressure to the CO2. If it's clear, you may have something clogging the tubing adapter that you use in the bung when you rack.
Click to expand...
 
Hopfan said:
lorenae said:
I have the BB with the hi-flow valve and it works just fine. It's a bit slower than my racking cane, but that's because I'm using the 1/4" tubing for racking. You may want to blow some CO2 through the valve, from the outside, to ensure there is no gunk stuck in it. Do that with fluid in the bottle to give a bit more back pressure to the CO2. If it's clear, you may have something clogging the tubing adapter that you use in the bung when you rack.
Click to expand...

GREAT idea- that never even occurred to me! I'll try that next time. Thanks!

Lorena
Click to expand...
 
Just an FYI, you can use 1/2" ID tubing for racking with the high flow valves from Better-Bottle. It fits on the OD of the valve outlet and the 1/4" fits in the ID of the valve outlet.

Here is a photo and a list showing all the different configurations of tubing that can be used with the Better-Bottle high flow valve.

valve_hose_adapters.jpg


A) 1/2" ID PET-lined tubing pushed over the output port. B) 3/8" ID PET-lined tubing coupled to 1/2" ID PET-lined tubing that is pushed over the output port. C) 3/8" ID PET-lined tubing coupled to the output port with 1/4" ID PET-lined tubing that is pushed into the output port. D) 1/4" ID PET-lined tubing pushed into the output port. E) Soft 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD tubing stiffened with a short length of rigid or semi-rigid tubing and pushed into the output port.

These descriptions all mention PET lined tubing, but I have been unable to find a supplier for this type of tubing. The regular vinyl siphon tubing that we all use works just fine.
 
Bottle Rocket Myth is on Mythbusters right now ! I'll watch it and report what happens on the show when they bust the pop bottles and cooler bottles.

Edit: In the first segment, they were pressurizing pop bottles to 60 PSI. They then tried a cooler bottle with no built in handle. They didn't say what pressure was used, but it went quite high and came down with a thud. They found the rockets went the highest filled 1/3 full with water. Just saying...

Edit2: In the next segment, they test the burst pressure of the "3L" soda bottle and a water cooler bottle. The Soda bottle bursts at 150PSI. The water cooler bottle bursts at 90 PSI.

Anyone want to test the burst pressure of a BB? *chuckle
 
brewman ! said:
Bottle Rocket Myth is on Mythbusters right now ! I'll watch it and report what happens on the show when they bust the pop bottles and cooler bottles.

Edit: In the first segment, they were pressurizing pop bottles to 60 PSI. They then tried a cooler bottle with no built in handle. They didn't say what pressure was used, but it went quite high and came down with a thud. They found the rockets went the highest filled 1/3 full with water. Just saying...

Edit2: In the next segment, they test the burst pressure of the "3L" soda bottle and a water cooler bottle. The Soda bottle bursts at 150PSI. The water cooler bottle bursts at 90 PSI.

Anyone want to test the burst pressure of a BB? *chuckle
Click to expand...

Aren't Better bottles supposed to be made from a different "better" plastic than water cooler bottles?

They will have completely different properties.
 
I don't know about the materials for water cooler bottles. Pop bottles are supposedly made of PET so that they aren't porous and they hold CO2 pressure.

Just to stir the pot a bit, I am wondering how porous water cooler bottles are if they hold 90 PSI. Not that there is anything wrong with Better Bottles, but if water cooler bottles hold 90 PSI, I doubt they are very porous. And they have cap on the neck.

Just thinking out loud.
 
They mean they allow things to pass through on a molecular level. i.e oxygen.
Click to expand...

Well, air is made up of O2, CO2, N2, etc. So if one would fill a bottle to 10,20 or 30 PSI and if it was passing O2 at the molecular level, then the pressure would drop over time.
 
I guess it would, but I read that even under pressure it can work both ways.
Molecules can do weird things some times.

I read up on the use of plastics before I started brewing. I made my own mind up that on balance glass was best. But I'd still use plastic if I didn't have glass.

Each to their own, you pays your money and takes your choice.

It'll all taste better than the stuff on tap regardless of what you do it in as long as you respect the basics.
 
I'm very happy with the performance of my Better Bottles. My back loves them and cleaning them is a snap. I sanitze mine with about a gallon of Star San by putting in a #10 stopper and swirling the solution all around a few times while doing other things. I then drain the solution in my bucket of sanitizer and put the better bottle upside down in a measuring cup to drain. Can't do that with glass.
 
Keep in mind that the oxygen permeability of a glass carboy is not zero. Sure, the glass is not permeable but the stopper, whether it be a gum rubber stopper or a vinyl carboy cap is permeable.

John
 
I bet if you were to get a few belts and wrap them around the carboy you could use it as a keg. The belts will help prevent it from warping and exploding they will also help in maintaining pressure.
 
mmmm. why not just buy a plastic keg designed to be used as a fermenter or a keg?
The plastic kegs over here are cheaper than the Better Bottles.

If you use the carboy as a keg how are you going to keep the pressure after you draw a few pints.
 
If you use the carboy as a keg how are you going to keep the pressure after you draw a few pints.
Click to expand...

I'd keep them hooked up to a regulated CO2 tank, just like you would a corny keg.

For the record, I bought 3 Better Bottle 6 gallon carboys on the weekend.

I've decided I will use my cornys for carbonation and storage because 4 of them fit in the lower part of my fridge. I'll bottle or consume whatever beer/wine comes out of the BB carboys that won't fit in a corny keg. I guess its nice to have a little bit of bottled product on hand.
 

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