Batch sparge specific question

Hi All,
I was going to be doing a batch sparge tomorrow and I was watching conflicting information on one part of it. When you drain after the mash:
A) Do you drain until all of the water is out of the mash tun and the drain runs dry, then add your sparge and drain completely again?
B) Do you drain until the level is at the grain bed, then add your sparge, THEN drain completely?
I have seen John Palmer drain his mash tun only till level with the grain bed, but I have seen others drain completely before the sparge.
Any advice?

Choice A is what I have had success with, and is in line with Denny Conn's batch sparge method that many recommend. Don't forget to give it a good stir before draining.

tpaulsen said:

Hi All,
I was going to be doing a batch sparge tomorrow and I was watching conflicting information on one part of it. When you drain after the mash:
A) Do you drain until all of the water is out of the mash tun and the drain runs dry, then add your sparge and drain completely again?
B) Do you drain until the level is at the grain bed, then add your sparge, THEN drain completely?
I have seen John Palmer drain his mash tun only till level with the grain bed, but I have seen others drain completely before the sparge.
Any advice?

Click to expand...

"A" is correct for batch sparge. You also want to stir the mash well prior to draining the first runnings. Then stir well again after adding the sparge water. Run off rate doesn't matter for batch sparge.

Edit: Beat by someone faster on the keyboard again.
Brew on

A is batch sparge.
B sounds like fly sparge or a derivative.

I thought that if you drained your mash tun before sparge that you might be at a bit more risk of a stuck mash? I will try method A today and see how it goes. Making a Canadian Wheat Ale.

tpaulsen said:

I thought that if you drained your mash tun before sparge that you might be at a bit more risk of a stuck mash? I will try method A today and see how it goes. Making a Canadian Wheat Ale.

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I've never had that issue. My understanding is that stuck sparge can occur if your grain is milled too fine or you use a large percentage of wheat malt in your mash. Rice hulls help to prevent a stuck sparge.

tpaulsen said:

I thought that if you drained your mash tun before sparge that you might be at a bit more risk of a stuck mash? I will try method A today and see how it goes. Making a Canadian Wheat Ale.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a fable spun by fly spargers hatin' on the superior batch sparging concept.

doug293cz said:

"A" is correct for batch sparge. You also want to stir the mash well prior to draining the first runnings.
Brew on

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doug- just curious- why would you want to stir just before you drain your 1st runnings? I thought you wanted to vorlauf and let the grainbed settle before draining.

JimRausch said:

doug- just curious- why would you want to stir just before you drain your 1st runnings? I thought you wanted to vorlauf and let the grainbed settle before draining.

Click to expand...

I can answer this one.... efficiency. If conversion is still happening during the last few minutes of the mash, but you don't stir, then much of the newest converted sugars will remain inside of the husks and might not come out with your runnings. A quick stir a minute or two before you runoff will get these sugars more readily into solution.

Admittedly, the above matters more for really big beers, and/or if you don't do a very fine crush of the grains. With an excellent crush and standard gravity, you might not notice any effect on efficiency one way or the other. So, it kind of depends.

Hope this helps. Think about it.

JimRausch said:

doug- just curious- why would you want to stir just before you drain your 1st runnings? I thought you wanted to vorlauf and let the grainbed settle before draining.

Click to expand...

The grain will naturally settle and compact if it sits undisturbed for a while, stirring helps loosen things up.

You can stir and let it settle for a minute or so before vorlauf, but you dont want to allow it to settle after vorlauf.

I don't think you saw a batch sparge done as you say in B. It is just not done that way.

Finish the mash, Stir well, vorlauf until the wort runs clear. Drain the mash tun. Add sparge water, stir it well, vorlauf until it runs clear, drain. I do the sparge in two steps. I sparge with half of what is left after the mash to my preboil amount. I then measure how much I need to get to my final amount for preboil. Add that, stir, vorlauf, drain then start the boil.

Stuck sparges do not have much to do with the method. More it is too fine a grind or sticky ingredients. As already stated you can use rice hulls to give the mash more porosity.

JimRausch said:

doug- just curious- why would you want to stir just before you drain your 1st runnings? I thought you wanted to vorlauf and let the grainbed settle before draining.

Click to expand...

Yes, you should stir before you vorlauf, if you are going to vorlauf (I don't because I BIAB.) I was just focusing on the need to homogenize the wort prior to run-off. Vorlauf can help your efficiency if you have a large volume below a false bottom. The reason is that the wort below the FB is likely to have a lower SG than the wort in the grain mass, and it's hard to mix in the wort under the FB just by stirring. To get the efficiency benefit of the vorlauf, you should probably recirculate at least the volume below the FB. Don't stir after vorlaufing, as you will undo clarifying effects of the vorlauf.

dmtaylor said:

I can answer this one.... efficiency. If conversion is still happening during the last few minutes of the mash, but you don't stir, then much of the newest converted sugars will remain inside of the husks and might not come out with your runnings. A quick stir a minute or two before you runoff will get these sugars more readily into solution.

Admittedly, the above matters more for really big beers, and/or if you don't do a very fine crush of the grains. With an excellent crush and standard gravity, you might not notice any effect on efficiency one way or the other. So, it kind of depends.

Hope this helps. Think about it.

Click to expand...

This is correct. To maximize the lauter efficiency of a batch sparge you want the wort as homogeneous (w.r.t. sugar concentration) as possible. If the wort is not homogeneous, it is likely that the higher SG wort is absorbed in, or adsorbed on, the grits. And thus, the wort retained in the mash due to grain absorption will be higher SG wort, so more sugar will be retained in the grain mass. Max lauter efficiency is obtained by leaving the least possible amount of sugar in the grain mass after each run-off step.

Brew on

Yes. Stir. The let settle for about 10 mins. It does a pre wash of the grains to loosen sugars and suspends them.

kh54s10 said:

I don't think you saw a batch sparge done as you say in B. It is just not done that way.

Finish the mash, Stir well, vorlauf until the wort runs clear. Drain the mash tun. Add sparge water, stir it well, vorlauf until it runs clear, drain. I do the sparge in two steps. I sparge with half of what is left after the mash to my preboil amount. I then measure how much I need to get to my final amount for preboil. Add that, stir, vorlauf, drain then start the boil.

Stuck sparges do not have much to do with the method. More it is too fine a grind or sticky ingredients. As already stated you can use rice hulls to give the mash more porosity.

Click to expand...

Big +1 on the "double" batch sparging.
Always 82-86% efficientcy.
Stir and let em sit for a few, re-circulate, then run it hard.

GHawk said:

Big +1 on the "double" batch sparging.
Always 82-86% efficientcy.
Stir and let em sit for a few, re-circulate, then run it hard.

Click to expand...

Here's a chart that shows the difference in lauter efficiency for no-sparge, single batch sparge, double batch sparge, and triple batch sparge. It also shows the difference for typical MLT grain absorption of 0.12 gal/lb, and an aggressively squeezed BIAB with an absorption of 0.06 gal/lb. Each additional sparge step gets you less improvement in efficiency than the previous sparge step. It's up to you to decide on a balance between additional work, or slightly lower efficiency. There is no wrong answer.



Brew on

Is the grain weight / pre boil volume text on the bottom correct? Thinks it needs to be inverted.

ba-brewer said:

Is the grain weight / pre boil volume text on the bottom correct? Thinks it needs to be inverted.

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Yes it is correct. It turns out that lauter efficiency for any specific sparge process is constant w.r.t. grain weight / pre-boil volume. For example, if you use a double batch sparge @ 0.12 gal/lb grain absorption, the lauter efficiency will be the same for a 5 gal batch with 6.5 gal pre-boil volume and 10 lbs of grain as for a 10 gal batch with 13 gal pre-boil volume and 20 lbs of grain. This ratio is used to make the chart universal rather than for a particular batch (pre-boil) volume. As far as I know, I am the originator of this ratio as a normalizing factor for lauter efficiency (if anyone knows otherwise, please let me know so I can stop taking credit.)

You could invert the ratio as you suggest, but then the chart gets distorted, and the value of the ratio would get smaller as the beer gets "bigger" which is counter intuitive. Since I originated this method of presenting lauter efficiency data, I got to choose how it would be done.

This ratio is different than mash thickness which is usually expressed as strike volume / grain weight.

Brew on

dmtaylor said:

I can answer this one.... efficiency. If conversion is still happening during the last few minutes of the mash, but you don't stir, then much of the newest converted sugars will remain inside of the husks and might not come out with your runnings. A quick stir a minute or two before you runoff will get these sugars more readily into solution.

Admittedly, the above matters more for really big beers, and/or if you don't do a very fine crush of the grains. With an excellent crush and standard gravity, you might not notice any effect on efficiency one way or the other. So, it kind of depends.

Hope this helps. Think about it.

Click to expand...

Great, Thanks Dave. It just seemed curious to me. I'm all for getting whatever few extra points I can.
edit: And Thank you Doug as well. I saw and answered dave's post before I moved on to p.3

doug293cz said:

This ratio is different than mash thickness which is usually expressed as strike volume / grain weight.

Brew on

Click to expand...

OK, I get it now, thanks. I am used to seeing or thinking of things in term of the mash thickness.

This is interesting!
Ive been having 60% efficiency with fine crush and no stir and would be happy to try this and see how this plays out.
Good read and find.
Thanks

kh54s10 said:

I don't think you saw a batch sparge done as you say in B. It is just not done that way.

Finish the mash, Stir well, vorlauf until the wort runs clear. Drain the mash tun. Add sparge water, stir it well, vorlauf until it runs clear, drain. I do the sparge in two steps. I sparge with half of what is left after the mash to my preboil amount. I then measure how much I need to get to my final amount for preboil. Add that, stir, vorlauf, drain then start the boil.

Stuck sparges do not have much to do with the method. More it is too fine a grind or sticky ingredients. As already stated you can use rice hulls to give the mash more porosity.

Click to expand...

Search you tube, All grain brewing with john palmer.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5J8S5nBdUc[/ame]
About 13 minutes in, he adds the sparge water but doesnt drain right to the bottom first. He drains to the start of the grain then adds the sparge water, stirs and sits it.

tpaulsen said:

Search you tube, All grain brewing with john palmer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5J8S5nBdUc
About 13 minutes in, he adds the sparge water but doesnt drain right to the bottom first. He drains to the start of the grain then adds the sparge water, stirs and sits it.

Click to expand...

At 12:35 he says you want to drain it all.

You definitely drain all the wort from the mash. Then sparge.

I'm a 2 step batch sparger as well. Collect first runnings add half of total sparge water, stir like a mad man, let sit for 10 minutes, vorlauf and drain 2nd runnings. Then repeat with second half of sparge water.

BigTerp said:

I'm a 2 step batch sparger as well. Collect first runnings add half of total sparge water, stir like a mad man, let sit for 10 minutes, vorlauf and drain 2nd runnings. Then repeat with second half of sparge water.

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Mostly the same for me. I double batch sparge higher OG beers and single batch sparge lower OG beers. I also line my cooler mash tun with a Wilserbrewer mesh bag. No vorlauf, no stuck sparges, no concerns about drain rate, and easy indoor cleanup for somebody who lives and brews in a townhouse.

I double-batch sparge for really big beers >1.085 or so, and skip the sparge altogether for small beers <1.050. Otherwise single sparge is good enough for me.