Accentuate Maltiness

Hello, I am hoping for some water feedback please. I am about to brew my Oktoberfest for a comp, and would to make the maltiness more pronounced. The last comp I entered it in (which it did take first btw) the judges scored me lower on not being as malt forward. I fermented with WLP 830, big healthy starter (can't remember cell count off hand) and big dose of O2 to get it going. Temp controlled ferment at 53.

My water profile was for that batch:

pH 7.1
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 357
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.60
Cations / Anions, me/L 6.6 / 7.2
ppm
Sodium, Na 10
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 76
Magnesium, Mg 28
Total Hardness, CaCO3 307
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 13
Chloride, Cl 24
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 349
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 286
Fluoride, F 0.82
Total Iron, Fe 0.03

This is what I am brewing with for this batch:

pH 8.1

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 179
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.30
Cations / Anions, me/L / 2.9 2.8


Sodium, Na 18
Potassium, K 5
Calcium, Ca 24
Magnesium, Mg 8
Total Hardness, CaCO3 93
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 5
Chloride, Cl 25
Carbonate, CO3 6
Bicarbonate, HCO3 105
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 96
Total Phosphorus, P 0.39
Total Iron, Fe < 0.0

What recommendations for accentuating Malty goodness?

Thanks!
Caleb

More malt.

Yup, sounds like a recipe problem.

Heres my recipe. Ignore the 75% Mash Eff, because I am averaging 64%. Thats a topic for another thread.........


Style: Oktoberfest/Märzen
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 15.60 gal
Post Boil Volume: 12.22 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 10.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.063 SG
Estimated Color: 9.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 23.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 64.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 71.6 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
11 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 39.3 %
11 lbs Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 39.3 %
4 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 14.3 %
1 lbs Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.6 %
1 lbs Caravienne Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.6 %
2.00 oz Tettnang [4.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 14.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 5.3 IBUs
2.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 8 -
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 3.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg German Lager (White Labs #WLP830) [35.49 Yeast 10 -
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 11 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 28 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 35.88 qt of water at 167.9 F 156.0 F 45 min
Mash Out Add 14.00 qt of water at 203.1 F 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 6.71 gal water at 168.0

My first suggestion was going to be to reduce your bicarbonate, which you did. My second suggestion would be to try a new yeast. White Labs only rates WLP830 a 2 out of 4 for that style of beer. Although I prefer White Labs, I've used Wyeast 2633 in my O'fests with great results (and positive feedback from judges).


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I'd cut back a little on the Pilsner malt and increase the Munich - maybe like 2lbs or so. I'd also recommend trying a different yeast - WLP833 works very well in my opinion. You could also possibly cut back a little on the late hops to get the malt to come forward a little bit more. It sounds like your process is 100% solid. Congrats on the medal. I got a first in the Pilsner category in the same comp.

cadillacandy said:

I'd cut back a little on the Pilsner malt and increase the Munich - maybe like 2lbs or so. I'd also recommend trying a different yeast - WLP833 works very well in my opinion. You could also possibly cut back a little on the late hops to get the malt to come forward a little bit more. It sounds like your process is 100% solid. Congrats on the medal. I got a first in the Pilsner category in the same comp.

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Thanks everybody! I'll give this a shot on my next batch. Hopefully next week t be (barely) ready for Bockfest comp

The alkalinity of that final water is still too high for brewing a moderately pale beer. I don't see a mention of acid malt or liquid acid use, so I assume that additional neutralization of that alkalinity was not performed. The mash pH and alkalinity of the sparging water was probably too high and that will take away some of the perception of maltiness and bring in the spector of tannin astringency and roughness from any hopping. A mash pH of around 5.2 appears to be well suited to malt focused beers.

The proper use of acid for that alkalinity neutralization would make a world of difference to that beer. I do agree that the dilution you have proposed is appropriate. The reduction in the overall mineralization is good. Having that remaining chloride level in the water can be helpful in helping the water to enhance the perception of fullness in the beer. But with respect to malt flavor...water can't create or increase it. It can only hide or destroy it. If more maltiness is desired, make sure that the water isn't part of the problem, then add malt and/or reduce bittering to let that malt character out.

mabrungard said:

The alkalinity of that final water is still too high for brewing a moderately pale beer. I don't see a mention of acid malt or liquid acid use, so I assume that additional neutralization of that alkalinity was not performed. The mash pH and alkalinity of the sparging water was probably too high and that will take away some of the perception of maltiness and bring in the spector of tannin astringency and roughness from any hopping. A mash pH of around 5.2 appears to be well suited to malt focused beers.

The proper use of acid for that alkalinity neutralization would make a world of difference to that beer. I do agree that the dilution you have proposed is appropriate. The reduction in the overall mineralization is good. Having that remaining chloride level in the water can be helpful in helping the water to enhance the perception of fullness in the beer. But with respect to malt flavor...water can't create or increase it. It can only hide or destroy it. If more maltiness is desired, make sure that the water isn't part of the problem, then add malt and/or reduce bittering to let that malt character out.

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Thank you for your input. This is where I do have some confusion. With the current malt bill, And my water profile, I do mash around 5.3 without any additions. Where I can use help, is in adjusting my sparge water. I flysparge, but not from an HLT. I have an on demand water heater. So how do I calculate what is needed to correct PH during sparging?

What! You sparge with that tap water? That is a big problem. It is not anywhere near suitable for brewing without acidification. At a minimum, you need to draw off the required volume of sparging water and acidify it as necessary to reduce its alkalinity.

mabrungard said:

What! You sparge with that tap water? That is a big problem. It is not anywhere near suitable for brewing without acidification. At a minimum, you need to draw off the required volume of sparging water and acidify it as necessary to reduce its alkalinity.

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I have my own self contained brewing water "well". 275 gallon ibc tank. Can I acidify the whole thing, and then compensate my mash if needed?

96 isn't that bad on the alkalinity WRT sparge but it is pretty simple to determine how much acid will be needed to neutralize it. 96/50 is approximately 2 mEq/L and to go to mash pH takes about 0.8 times that or 1.6. 88% latic is 11.5 N and 10% phosphoric is 1.1 N) so you would need 4.4*1.1 = 1.7 mL/L phosphoric or 0.17 mL/L lactic. This will take all the water to mash pH and so is fine for both mashing and sparging.

ajdelange said:

96 isn't that bad on the alkalinity WRT sparge but it is pretty simple to determine how much acid will be needed to neutralize it. 96/50 is approximately 2 mEq/L and to go to mash pH takes about 0.8 times that or 1.6. 88% latic is 11.5 N and 10% phosphoric is 1.1 N) so you would need 4.4*1.1 = 1.7 mL/L phosphoric or 0..17 mL/L lactic. This will take all the water to mash pH and so is fine for both mashing and sparging.

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Total water usage is 19g from Dough in, to mash out, to sparge. So if I understand you correctly, I could add 0.017ml/l lactic when I dough in, to take care of everything? 19x3.78x0.017=1.22ml.

Ill sit back now and get schooled

Thank you for the help! I bought the Water book, and get so lost in it.....

That's correct but what I would much prefer you do is make a test mash using this addition and check its pH with a meter.

ajdelange said:

That's correct but what I would much prefer you do is make a test mash using this addition and check its pH with a meter.

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Yes, of course. I need a new PH meter. The one I currently have, no longer wants to calibrate itself.....

Just to update, I have been adding 2-2.5 ML of 88% lactic to the beginning of my mash. Every batch I have brewed that way has given me a mash ph of ~5.3. The only exception was a pale ale w/o any dark malts, and my ph was around 5.5. Ten grams of gypsum put my sulfate where I wanted, and dropped PH to 5.3. Without any other additions on any batch, sparging straight from my water supply, my boil ph has been 5.24-5.41. Tail runnings haven't been over 5.6

Also,after a couple of additional tweaks, I have brought my mash eff up from mid 60's to 75-78%

Thank you for your help!