New info regarding Perlick 650SS and Ciders

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MrE_the_Great

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Just wanted to pass this on in case it's pertinent for others. I recently ordered 4 650SS faucets and when checking AiHB for shipping information saw a new line in the description stating that these were not recommended for low pH liquids like Ciders.

I have been unable to find the information anywhere else so I emailed AiHB and promptly received this response:

Jason,

This is information we just learned from Perlick yesterday. I guess the flow control mechanism is a different grade of stainless and this can cause issues with lower ph liquids. The end result is a sulfur smell coming from the faucets. If you do not think you can use the faucets you are more than welcome to return them.

Sorry about any inconvenience this may cause. It looks like perlick is just now releasing this information to the vendors


Interesting information just being released. May save you the step of exchanging a faucet if you planned to put a cider on one like I did.

That said, anyone use flow control faucets on cider? What's your experience?
 
Has anyone tried running a cider or sour beer through these to see if there is actually a problem?

Anyone know what grade stainless is at risk? Might be that Perlick is being a little conservative from the manufacture point of view...if we looked up the stainless grade we could confirm the material pH from an alternate source.

I really want to buy a couple of these but the no sour beer thing is maybe a deal breaker...no Berliner's on tap???

On a side note there's a local taproom here that has about 20 of these faucets and they always have at least a handful of sours running through them too. That's what makes me think you can get away with it.
 
I wonder if this has something to do with this other thread?

This guy was using 650s flow control faucets and getting a sulfur smell after use. Turns out he was turning the tap off using the flow control instead of the tap handle, which left a pocket of beer and ambient air to sit and ripen overnight.

Or maybe that was going on, and there's also an unrelated issue with the type of stainless that also results in a sulfur smell?
 
I wonder if this has something to do with this other thread?

This guy was using 650s flow control faucets and getting a sulfur smell after use. Turns out he was turning the tap off using the flow control instead of the tap handle, which left a pocket of beer and ambient air to sit and ripen overnight.

Or maybe that was going on, and there's also an unrelated issue with the type of stainless that also results in a sulfur smell?

It's certainly possible. I ended up exchanging mine for non-flow controls so I can't comment on the real world application. Although I'm extremely pleased with my 630s, I'm still curious as to the conclusion of this "issue."
 
Phew, I missed that the 650SS was flow control. I have a cider on newish 630SS so panicked for a second.
 
Just an update for anyone curious...

I have (4) 650SS's on my keezer and just tapped a Destihl Wild Sour... After sitting overnight, the initial pour was pure sulfur odor. After the first 1oz or 2oz though, the odor goes away and it's fine. I bought these faucets new about a month ago or so.

Unfortunately, this issue has yet to be fixed... You think being a material issue they would correct this for more universal use!
 
Interesting. I haven't had issues so far with my cider and with my sours. I don't pour them that often though, so I'm not checking regularly. I'll try checking tonight or tomorrow night to see if I notice anything. I've got to say that so far, I am very happy with the 16 650ss faucets that I have in total.

With all the reports though, it definitely seems like they used 303 or 416 stainless for at least one part. From what I've read and an informal experiment performed by a brewer, they believe it is the perl lever itself that is the culprit - I originally thought that if anything it would be the flow control conical section.

I don't know if the 650ss and 630ss share the same lever, because if they did, I don't know why they would use a different alloy for the 650ss.

Does anyone have a 630ss and 650ss to compare the handle levers?
 
fwiw, according to the Perlick 600 series parts listing, the 650 does indeed use a different handle lever than the 630...
perlock_600_series_parts.jpg

Cheers!
 
fwiw, according to the Perlick 600 series parts listing, the 650 does indeed use a different handle lever than the 630...
View attachment 331642

Cheers!

Good find! I wonder if Perlick would be willing to machine new parts out of 304 or 316 to make available, even as aftermarket. I know I would be willing to buy the pieces for a reasonable cost.

If they aren't willing to, I wonder if they would at least be willing to license the design (I assume it is part of their intellectual property) so that a machine shop could be hired to make the part in a better alloy.

I remember contacting them months ago asking about the 650ss and the issues I had been reading about, but they never responded to me.
 
Well, I've pulled from my two sours on tap, and I don't notice any funky smell, and they taste just as I expect.

Now that I think about it, when I did my initial long star san soak, I did notice the sulfur smell, but ever since then I haven't smelled it since.

I still need to check my cider tap and see how it is going, but at this point I'm not to worried about it. If I notice any sulfur smell in the future, I'll report back.
 
Very interesting info. Thanks for the heads up.

Still, I've had poured 2 ciders with my 650SS and haven't experienced any of the 'sulfur' issues mentioned in thread thread as of yet. Both times the keg was emptied within a few hours - could have an influence on things if cider sits too long in the tap and funky stuff starts to happen?

But will keep a keen nose on things since I'll be kegging another cider in a few weeks time.
 
I agree with those who posit that the sulfur issue is due to using the flow control to shut off the faucet, creating a partial air pocket between the flow control and the lever.

I recently started using three 650ss, and I get the sulfury thing on my ales after overnight when using the flow control as a shut-off valve. When I don't do that, I don't get the sulfur. Kinda sucks really, because it just about negates half the reason I bought these faucets, so that I could simply and elegantly shut off the faucets against my animals accidentally knocking the handles forward. (Other half being for good slow bottle or growler fills, which I have not yet investigated, and may yet be the "saving grace" on these things).

I'm going to have to come up with a different "locking" system, or just disconnect the lines at the kegs when not using...either of which is going to be a huge inconvenience. Yeah, one could just ditch the first 2oz of the day from the tap, but that sulfur blow is so strong I ain't gonna subject wife or guests to that.

Another knock on the 650ss: the flow control valve at the rear of the faucet clogs readily if you have any hop debris in your beer. If I don't rack perfectly cleanly out of my fermenter, I have to blow the first 1/2 pint off with a picnic tap before hooking up to the beer line in the keezer in order to avoid clogging. Not that big a deal, but does have me wondering again if I made the right choice of faucet.
 
I agree with those who posit that the sulfur issue is due to using the flow control to shut off the faucet, creating a partial air pocket between the flow control and the lever.

I recently started using three 650ss, and I get the sulfury thing on my ales after overnight when using the flow control as a shut-off valve. When I don't do that, I don't get the sulfur. Kinda sucks really, because it just about negates half the reason I bought these faucets, so that I could simply and elegantly shut off the faucets against my animals accidentally knocking the handles forward.

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of confusion running around about what those handles are for. They were never, ever supposed to be used to shut off the beer flow. They are for fine tuning your flow after getting reasonably close with line balancing, to get the right head on your pour.

That said, you should be able to get what you're after if you close the tap handle first and then close the flow control. As long as the inside area stays full of beer (or cider or whatever) you should be fine.

Yes, the tap will still contain a small amount of beer that could be released. Nothing a drip tray shouldn't be able to handle. If that happens, close the tap handle, open the flow control, pour a taster to flush out the air bubbles,, close the tap, and close the flow valve again.

And most importantly, if you have cats that like to turn on your beer faucets, make sure you post videos!

(Other half being for good slow bottle or growler fills, which I have not yet investigated, and may yet be the "saving grace" on these things).

I somewhat doubt this would be a success, unless your lines and pressure are already tuned for a slow-ish flow to start with. If you significantly choke off the flow close to the exit, you're going to get foam. That's how stout taps work.

I'm going to have to come up with a different "locking" system, or just disconnect the lines at the kegs when not using...either of which is going to be a huge inconvenience.

Or get ball valves on the line just behind the taps. You may even be able to find electrical ones that don't require opening anything, just flipping a switch. (Which could be a keyhole switch, if you're worried about smart pets learning to flip it.)

Another knock on the 650ss: the flow control valve at the rear of the faucet clogs readily if you have any hop debris in your beer. If I don't rack perfectly cleanly out of my fermenter, I have to blow the first 1/2 pint off with a picnic tap before hooking up to the beer line in the keezer in order to avoid clogging. Not that big a deal, but does have me wondering again if I made the right choice of faucet.

Not sure what to say about that, but when I had my tap open for cleaning the openings did not look small enough to clog from any of the sediment I'm accustomed to dealing with. Anything that would get stuck in the holes of the flow control in its normal range of operation would also be a problem for any tap.

Did you balance your lines to the point that they would pour reasonably close to the right rate if you were not using flow control faucets? Because if you are like many others and are just connecting a short line and trying to let the faucet do the work, you're probably having to almost shut the flow valve to get your pour correct, and that would leave you with a small enough opening for your typical small particles of yeast and hops to get stuck.

If you have large pieces of flotsam floating around in your beer at kegging time (and the usual cold crashing / careful handling doesn't help) then you could pour through a sanitized cheesecloth into the keg. Just prime the keg with CO2 to avoid oxidation. Anything that makes it through a few folds of cloth should be small enough to not cause problems, and it shouldn't take out any of the sediment responsible for desirable flavors like I've heard some people say about gelatin.
 
Well cornies were "never ever" meant to hold beer, but that works! :D

And it's my dog, he's a lush. I've put my keezer up on a pedestal I made, and now the faucets are high enough he's too lazy to mess with them.

I am backpedaling on the belief that it's an air pocket causing the sulfur smell. I left the flow controls in the "halfway" position and managed to NOT pull a draft off the keezer for three full days (that was hard to do! ), and the sulfur was back.

After reading more testimonials on the web regarding sulfur smell from the 650ss and finding info about passivation processes for various grades of stainless (e.g., 303 vs. 304), I now believe that the issue IS in the grade of stainless used on certain part(s) (prime suspect being the handle lever) in the 650ss--probably made from free-machining sulfur-added 303, which in itself is probably not so bad, and is probably also the case for internal parts of others in the line like the 630ss--but in this case perhaps followed by improper passivation technique at whatever factory these particular parts are subcontracted out to.

I'm going to run some experiments and post up a new thread. I'm going to make this thing work, and get rid of this sulfur!
 
I would focus on the compensator.
The faucet lever is so similar to all of the other models I expect they use the same material.
And only the FC faucet seems to be an issue wrt ciders.

Otoh, there's nothing like that compensator in any other Perl...

perlock_600_series_parts.jpg

Cheers!
 
690ss uses same compensator, but probably not a common enough faucet to have anything online about it, not that I can find anyway.

And sure they all could be using the same material for their handles, but could be made in different factories and/or have different passivation treatments specified (possibly by mistake), etc.

Anyway, here's my promised thread on examining possible solutions:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7461459
 
Saw the thread, good start to a cure :)
Although I've had that parts list diagram for a year or better and saw the 690 model (FC with creamer) I've yet to read on HBT of anyone buying one, so no comparative data to work with there, yet...

Cheers!
 
I'll tell you what mystifies me: why can the 680 and 690 use the same handle lever part number, but the 630 and 650 use different part numbers from each other? Does not seem to be any reason to it, given that in each pair the difference (flow control vs not) is the same.
 
I wonder if the handle number under the 650 column has a typo in it...

Cheers!

You know, you might be right. If you go to perlick's website looking for replacement parts, both 630ss and 650ss list the same part number for the handle lever, the same part number the 630ss lists in that diagram:

https://www.perlick.com/store/webcatalog2.php?catno=1&sectno=1&grpno=2

Of course, I guess that COULD be a later correction to cover a screw up on initial production runs of the 650ss...
 
I have 2 650SS's and have a sulfur smell/taste out of both. I tried leaving the flow control valve all the way open (in which case why even bother to buy a flow control) and still would get a sulfur smell. I switched my soda off the 650 flow control to my 630 and no more sulfur smell.
 
I have 2 650SS's and have a sulfur smell/taste out of both. I tried leaving the flow control valve all the way open (in which case why even bother to buy a flow control) and still would get a sulfur smell. I switched my soda off the 650 flow control to my 630 and no more sulfur smell.

Can you check the lot codes on the bottoms of your faucets?

One of my 650ss says A0815G and two of them say A0915G, I wonder if those are MMYY date codes?

20160310_173747.jpg
 
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