stuck barleywine, looking for input...

Ok, so I still have my stuck barleywine/imperial smoked porter and I am looking for some input on what I am about to do next.

The story...
I had a few AG batches under my belt and was really wanting to make a BW so I started to read up on how to brew them. I had a poor mix in the MLT cooler and my efficiency sucked. It should have come out WAY above 1.1 and the OG was 1.096. My temps were right. I do not think I stirred/mixed the mash enough and that was my undoing. The day was gone and so was my patience so I pitched it with 1024 Irish ale yeast smack pack, no starter, the smack pack was like a rock when I pitched it...

It fermented at a pretty constant 62-64 degrees. 3 weeks later the SG was at 1.040 this did not change for 5 days. I then pitched, with a starter, champagne yeast into it. It went nuts for 3 days after I took a reading and it was at 1.034. It has not moved since then. I sampled it and I am not sure if I am dealing with unfermentables or a stuck fermentation...but it has a sweet taste to it...it is supposed to be a smokey BW and mixed with the sweet taste it is not very pleasant tasting IMO.

In a few days I will have a fresh cake of K1v111 wine yeast. I have read that pitching a good cake into a stuck fermentation may kick start the fermentation again. I fully understand that this yeast may drop the SG below 1.000 but I am willing to risk it to get it out of the 1.034 range. I will also bring the temp up to 68-70F before I repitch.(I did this with the champagne yeast as well.)

My questions are, is this my last hope to get the fermentation rolling again?

Is this a bad idea?

What is the worst that can happen?

Thanks.

I guess the worst that can happen is that it is still stuck and it ends up infected which is what happened to my only stuck fermentation, it is getting better though: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/13-gallons-unintentionally-wild-brown-can-i-use-133003/

If I were you I would try the third pitch, the only other thing you could do is ADD more fermentables which may seem counterproductive but has worked for some, or so I've read.

If you're going to ferment down another 20 points, I wonder if you should oxygenate it some more before re-pitching.

Rouse your yeast you have right now. It may not work, but worth a try.

While it is true that a large amount of yeast may kick start a stuck fermentation, it's not a guarenteed fix. Plus you may end up with a really, really dry BW, which, from what I've read in Brewing Classic Styles, is not ideal.

Maybe ramp up the temps a bit after rousing since you're fermenting in the lowest range of your original yeast (Wyeast 1084). Also, oxiginate it if you can. Attack from all angles!

-Amanda

Champagne yeast can't ferment maltose. There is likely a bunch of this in your beer that the first set of yeast didn't take care of. Unfortunately, the best way to deal with stuck ferments is not to have one in the first place. You likely underpitched with 5-10X too little yeast for that gravity. Straight O2 at the beginning would have helped as well.

You might get some more points with a big (2L at least) starter of Cal Ale or similar ale yeast to attack the maltose. Alternatively, you can hit it with some enzymes which should break down the maltose into shorter chain sugars that the champagne yeast can metabolize. I wouldn't add any more O2 at this point as it would likely oxidize the beer.

I really appreciate the help and the replies. I have warmed it up, roused the yeast, and feel I have pretty well exhausted my options.

I am also thinking that Wonderbread may be onto something here. I will swing into my LHBS and try some Amylase Enzymes before, I toss in my yeast cake of K1V111. I think I will actually save the K1V111 as the final "ace in the sleeve" to drop the gravity. Unless this is a bad idea...

What was your mash temp? Is it possible that you mashed too high and did not create as much fermentable sugar as you thought?

winvarin said:

What was your mash temp? Is it possible that you mashed too high and did not create as much fermentable sugar as you thought?

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This is possible but not probable. I mashed for 60 minutes and paid close attention to my temps, checked every 10-15 minutes. I do not think my "giant spoon" reached down far enough to work out the "dough balls and stuff" on the bottom of the MLT, causing poor efficiency. That is my theory anyways...I almost always shoot for a temp of 155.

Do you add your grain then your water when mashing, or do you add water to your mash tun first then add grain?

I used to do grain first. But I was having problems with dough balls. Once I changed and started mixing the grain into the water that was already in the mash tun, things were much better

1.034 isn't too bad of a final gravity. What was your expected? I wouldn't imagine it would be any less than 1.028 or 1.026, right?

Also, with a mash temp of 155, its not too surprising that you are at 1.034. The higher mash temp, the more unfermentable sugars you end up with. I could be wrong, but I doubt you will be able to squeeze much more, if any, out of it.

winvarin said:

Do you add your grain then your water when mashing, or do you add water to your mash tun first then add grain?

I used to do grain first. But I was having problems with dough balls. Once I changed and started mixing the grain into the water that was already in the mash tun, things were much better

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I add water into the MLT then add the grains into the MLT.

The issue was I had 25lbs of grain in a 10 gallon cooler...lol. It was a piss poor idea on MY part. I reduced the water to grain ratio to get it to all fit into the MLT and so I did not need to boil this mess down for 2 days. This was a batch sparge and as I posted above I knew I had issues with the 1st runnings and it did not improve with the next 2...I should have tried a bunch of things but I was exsausted and just wanted it done. What I have now is the fruit of my own stupidity...lol (BTW thanks again to everyone that has posted to help!)

bknifefight said:

1.034 isn't too bad of a final gravity. What was your expected? I wouldn't imagine it would be any less than 1.028 or 1.026, right?

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This would be true if I hit the OG but having the OG MUCH lower than expected changes the flavor profile to ABV% so that it is not nearly as enjoyable. (Think a sweet, malty, and smokey porter that resembles burnt syrup...YUK!) I would really be happy to have it hit 1.020. If it went down to or lower than 1.010 I would be REALLY happy. As it sits right now this is a malty, smokey monster and not very enjoyable.

I originally designed this to be a 1 glass of, around the campfire or @ hunting camp drink. As it sits now, it is not very tasty. I am not really concerned if most of the maltiness fades with a lower FG as it should retain the smokey qualities that I was after. I may even take some of this and freeze concentrate it to really amplify the abv% so it is a strong, smokey BW. I am seriously afraid to even attempt that now as it currently is...

I think you should settle for what it is. If you really don't like it, then you need to brew something else and blend the batches.

I think all these ideas about pitching onto other cakes are just turning this thing into a science experiment. Remember - a yeast cake is post fermentation, and those yeast are exhausted. If you want to pitch more yeast, you should be making a starter of a highly attenuative yeast and pitch these FRESH yeast into the beer.

But I think you're done. Mashing at 155 with a huge beer, plus a medium attenuative yeast like Irish and I'm not surprised you're in the 30s.

Learn a lesson about starters?

In all reality with a beer like this you have no idea how it will taste aged and carbed up. I just bottled an english BW a couple of weeks ago. I missed my OG by about 12 points and it finished at 1.028(used two packs of windsor and mashed at 149). I say let it bulk age for a month or so then bottle that puppy up. Or introduce some bugs to it, that might bring it down.

As for learning about starters...I learned ALOT about BIG beers from this "experiment". From mashing to starters. This batch taught me ALOT about the whole process and what NOT to do... Also, I thought that Irish yeast would hit 10% ABV or better easy.

As for the starter and pitching onto a yeast cake...I was planning on rinsing the K1V111 and making up a 2L starter if it comes to that. Since this yeast was on a apple mead I would need to do this anyways as to not add more odd flavors to the mix...

I know that what I have I will NEVER be able to reproduce and that is just fine with me. I will be happy making up some strong and Imperial class beers and have done so with great success already! I just do not need another batch of "meh" or "ack" beer. I have 2 of these already and have just about finished them off from my Extract/PM days.

Thanks to everyone for posting the help. I am going to add in some Amylase Enzymes, hopefully tonight, to see if the yeast that is in it will come back for a few more points. If it does, GREAT if not, I know that I can then pitch my K1v111 onto it in a few days and that should chew it down to near 1.000, from what I have read.

BTW, I do not mind dry beers/wines, I almost prefer them to sweet ones.

I will come back and update this thread when I have something new to add unless someone here "knows better" and wishes to say something about my plan. If so, I certainly would appreciate it!

Thanks to all!

Zamial said:

The issue was I had 25lbs of grain in a 10 gallon cooler...lol. It was a piss poor idea on MY part. I reduced the water to grain ratio to get it to all fit into the MLT ...

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To be honest, that is exactly what has kept me from brewing two of my favorite package store varieties (barley wines; imperial stouts). I have a 10 gallon cooler and there is no way I can put the full grist volume for a barley wine in there.

I've recently been toying with the idea of taking a barley wine or RIS recipe and and scaling it down for a 2.5 or 3 gallon batch. That way I could do a big beer without re-tooling my equipment or having to make up for gravity points with extract.

winvarin said:

To be honest, that is exactly what has kept me from brewing two of my favorite package store varieties (barley wines; imperial stouts). I have a 10 gallon cooler and there is no way I can put the full grist volume for a barley wine in there.

I've recently been toying with the idea of taking a barley wine or RIS recipe and and scaling it down for a 2.5 or 3 gallon batch. That way I could do a big beer without re-tooling my equipment or having to make up for gravity points with extract.

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I recently upgraded to a 3 keggle brewery. At the time I did this I was brewing inside, on the stove and doing split boils. AKA a BAD idea lol...

Yeah, every thread I've read says to mash Barleywines at 149F and not use much crystal/caramel malts because its common to have a HIGH ending FG. I'm making one this weekend and plan on mashing at 147-149 as well as using 2-3 packs of Notty (not from the bad lot) to get better attenuation.

I agree with what has been stated. I have been reading a lot about BW lately. It seems that a 149range mash is neccesary, and that a high FG is normal. It makes sense, because BW is typically really sweet anyway (even the one I had for breakfast , Victory Old Horizontal had a pretty sweet malt flavor behind all the hops).

As far as input - This sounds like a fun batch. Just be careful. Patience is the most important thing here, as there are some intense flavors that will need maturing. As it is, I think it might end up being ok if you age it well. If you insist on playing with it, then have at it, just be careful with sanitation (goes without saying, I know, but it would be even more terrible to lose a batch as interesting as this). The wine yeast... meh... try this first:

Add sugar

Yep you heard me. I believe (IIRC) that if you throw some highly fermentables in, and perhaps rouse the yeast, that this will kick the yeast into overdrive, fermenting not only the sugar, but also any tougher to digest fermentables. As a nice side effect... more ABV! Try 0.5-1.0 lbs of table sugar.
I would do this before the wine yeast.

NuclearRich said:

. The wine yeast... meh... try this first:

Add sugar

Yep you heard me. I believe (IIRC) that if you throw some highly fermentables in, and perhaps rouse the yeast, that this will kick the yeast into overdrive, fermenting not only the sugar, but also any tougher to digest fermentables. As a nice side effect... more ABV! Try 0.5-1.0 lbs of table sugar.
I would do this before the wine yeast.

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This is actually probably one of the best solutions. Sugar is known to dry beer out quite a bit without needing much to do it. This might be the best route, although its all up to the yeast in the end.

I decided to go with the AE. I got quite a bit of bubbling and it since has stopped for over 3 days. I took a SG and I have hit 1.020 on the money. I tasted the sample and it was MUCH better. I will track the SG for the next 3 days to be sure it is all done.

This is now over 10% by just a smidgen. I really like the flavor but it is HOT. I am pretty sure this is going to really need some time to mellow out but when it does I think I will have a great to fantastic drink!

I have a friend who used AE on a stuck beer (extract batch and the dreaded 1.020 curse) and the beer continued to ferment (and dry) forever. Your mileage may vary: I would take my readings on a whole week, just not three days, just to be on the safe side.

jfr1111 said:

I have a friend who used AE on a stuck beer (extract batch and the dreaded 1.020 curse) and the beer continued to ferment (and dry) forever. Your mileage may vary: I would take my readings on a whole week, just not three days, just to be on the safe side.

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For the record, AE is completely different from Bean-o. This sounds much more like a Bean-o story than an AE story. AE will only "chain out" so far where Beano-o, being more of a chemical reaction than a natural reaction WILL break every sugar down to a simple sugar until it is all simple sugars.

Yeah, it probably was beano, sorry.

jfr1111 said:

Yeah, it probably was beano, sorry.

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No need to be sorry at all! It is cool that you were looking out for someone! There are a few threads floating around that say they are the same and then late in them someone steps in to put the record straight.

The AE has done a FANTSTIC job. It shaved 12 points off the FG and after letting it sit it is going to be bottled tonight. I do not detect any odd or off flavors and SWMBO even likes it...Thanks to those that helped!

This the first use of amylase enzyme that I found where someone actually had a problem then used the AE and then said how it worked. I am going to pick some up I have a huge RIS that is stuck at 1.045ish. So wednesday I'll be picking up some AE to throw in the fermentor. I'm hoping to bring mine down to 1.020ish also.