DIY Conical Fermenter idea

I've been thinking...

HDPE2 has a melting temp of 120-130 degrees C, which is somewhere around 250 degrees F. So... What would happen if you cut a large hole in a 1x12" board, supported by bricks or whatever, then poured hot oil (dangerous dangerous, I know I know) into the bucket and used a large wooden dowel rod and slowly pushed down on the bottom of the bucket until it took on a conical shape?

Of course, you'd want to start with just a small amount of oil, to ensure that you don't melt through and have a big problem on your hands, but if you went slowly, maybe just a couple of cups of oil at a time, do you think that could work? Sort of a poor man's conical fermenter?

Of course, after it was formed, you'd dump the oil, clean it thoroughly, drill a hole, and insert a ball valve... Seems it could be done for under 20 bucks.

Good luck with that one....

Just spend the few hundred on an already made plastic one. Saving yourself that hassle and mess will be worth it.

You could probably get a conical shaped lump of plastic, but getting a lid to fit it would be a b*tch.

I think there's only one way to find out: Try it and find out! I honestly don't know if that will work or not, but if you do it outside there shouldn't be a problem. And don't mind potentially destroying a bucket and the neighbors wondering WTF you're doing.

My money's against ya, but you could try it out on a cheap 5 gallon paint bucket first...

Good Lord that sounds dangerous! Hot oil burns are horrible. How about contacting a big plastics co with the idea? There just might be a market.

Isn't the plastic going to get really thin as it deforms? I'd be worried about it becoming brittle, as well; you accidentally bump into it and it cracks. I really suspect that as the hot oil collects at the bottom, it'll burn right through.

Well, I suspect playing with hot oil in this experiment will be less dangerous than some of my other hobbies. I think a lot of people (especially in America) forget about all the wonderfully dangerous things that are actually rather safe when done with care and attention. I suppose, though, this isn't the project for a 10 year old.

As for the oil burning through, it's possible, but that's why I intend to maybe just start with small amounts. I think that, with common sense, the experiment can be done safely. Whether the results will be successful, that is another question. It doesn't seem likely, but it's almost too easy not to try, ya know?

As for the plastic thinning and deforming, that's a concern. I'm not really sure whether I'd be able to get an adequate cone shape. Anybody want to take a guess as to what the minumum (least deforming) and ideal cone angles should be?

Toot said:

As for the plastic thinning and deforming, that's a concern. I'm not really sure whether I'd be able to get an adequate cone shape. Anybody want to take a guess as to what the minumum (least deforming) and ideal cone angles should be?

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My conical has a 60 degree cone. I think anything less than 45 might be a waste of time...

Toot said:

Well, I suspect playing with hot oil in this experiment will be less dangerous than some of my other hobbies. I think a lot of people (especially in America) forget about all the wonderfully dangerous things that are actually rather safe when done with care and attention. I suppose, though, this isn't the project for a 10 year old.

As for the oil burning through, it's possible, but that's why I intend to maybe just start with small amounts. I think that, with common sense, the experiment can be done safely. Whether the results will be successful, that is another question. It doesn't seem likely, but it's almost too easy not to try, ya know?

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Sorry, I wasn't trying to act like your mom lol, in rereading my post it does sound kind of lame. I wasn't trying to imply that you weren't proceeding with caution but hot oil is friggin horrible and 250 is hot. I have done some wacky dangerous things which afterwards I think "what the heck was I doing?" (like soldering electrical connections with a Mapp torch because I was in a hurry). If you had some other way of applying heat it would be nice and leave you a little less of a hazard factor. Do you have access to a heat gun? If you do, you could invert the bucket on the rod, have someone heat the bottom while you slowly press down. Actually if you had some metal cone insert that would be best. Maybe rivet together a cone of heavy gauge sheet metal...I dunno just brainstorming...

zoebisch01 said:

Sorry, I wasn't trying to act like your mom lol, in rereading my post it does sound kind of lame. I wasn't trying to imply that you weren't proceeding with caution but hot oil is friggin horrible and 250 is hot. I have done some wacky dangerous things which afterwards I think "what the heck was I doing?" (like soldering electrical connections with a Mapp torch because I was in a hurry). If you had some other way of applying heat it would be nice and leave you a little less of a hazard factor. Do you have access to a heat gun? If you do, you could invert the bucket on the rod, have someone heat the bottom while you slowly press down. Actually if you had some metal cone insert that would be best. Maybe rivet together a cone of heavy gauge sheet metal...I dunno just brainstorming...

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It's cool. I was actually thinking about the heat gun myself today. It does seem to be a more precise method. Safety, shmafety, but precision is worth something.

The metal cone idea... meh.... I worry about any "seams" that could result in a bacteria farm. But I wonder if there is some sort of food grade adhesive that could be used to seal it...


I know I could just break down and buy a $250 plastic conical, but I'm not that dedicated yet. However, I like experimenting and if I could make something for $15, well that is certainly an expense that can be justified.

Toot said:

The metal cone idea... meh.... I worry about any "seams" that could result in a bacteria farm. But I wonder if there is some sort of food grade adhesive that could be used to seal it...


I know I could just break down and buy a $250 plastic conical, but I'm not that dedicated yet. However, I like experimenting and if I could make something for $15, well that is certainly an expense that can be justified.

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Yeah I kinda thought about that afterwards. You'd prolly get little bumps in the plastic. But the adhesive idea is good as long as it holds up to the heat. Ahh wait, let me clarify....I was basically saying to use the sheet metal cone as a form for the hot plastic to help keep it consistent, like invert the cone and then place the bucket down on top, apply heat and slowly press. Getting it started would be hard though....again just brainstorming...:cross:

I agree with not spending the $250, and heck, the way I see it if you have any materials already at home why not use them.

Give it a shot, but I think heat gun is much safer than oil. I'd like to see how this turns out. If I were going to take it on myself I'd find some type of cone form to try to use to shape your conical. Press down an entire cone into the bottom, not just a rod... I don't know, give it a shot...

Just an FYI, you can buy 6.5 gallon conicals wtih 60 degree cone (plastic) already made for < $150 at kennywoodbrewing. Comes with movable racking arm/valve and a drainage valve on the bottom. Airlock, lid, etc. I think this is a steal, but I haven't committed myself to getting one yet...

Man there are so many folks on here from central PA and PA in general it seems.

To go along with the "brainstorming" group... you might get a big funnel, like this one:

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=2451

And cut off the post, just using the cone to shape. Since there are no welded seams on the funnel, you shouldn't have to worry too much about creases or anything like that. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out (or even if it doesn't)

In order to get a cone shape you would have to form the edges of the bucket as well as the bottom. You will run out of plastic before you even get close to getting a cone shape.

All you will do is stretch the bottom and thin it out, by the time you got a 60 degree angle the walls will be paper thin.

I fear you are correct. Oy this is getting complicated.

What if I started with a larger bucket and began working in the sides from a little higher up? Seems to me that if I started with a 10gallon bucket, I could probably still have at least 7.5gals of capacity when its done...

Maybe I'll experiment with a 5 gallon bucket first and try to draw the sides in so the bottom doesn't get stretched so thin. Even if it only winds up holding 3.5 or 4 gallons or so it'll be good for experimental brews.

You guys have the ER on Speed-dial, don't you ?

Where does one buy these plastic conicals that you speak of ?

I HATE fermenting with carboys. I hate racking and I hate cleaning carboys after fermenting in them.

Are plastic conicals air tight enough to do primary and secondary fermentation, ie no racking ? How much beer is lost draining the dead yeast out the bottom ?

Thanks

brewman ! said:

Where does one buy these plastic conicals that you speak of ?

I HATE fermenting with carboys. I hate racking and I hate cleaning carboys after fermenting in them.

Are plastic conicals air tight enough to do primary and secondary fermentation, ie no racking ? How much beer is lost draining the dead yeast out the bottom ?

Thanks

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I can't vouch for the company, but I googled it for you, having remembered a few of the key words and here's the one I saw about a week ago... I'm sure the usual plastic vs stainless vs glass debate still applies.


http://www.minibrew.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5

Boy those plastic conicals are pretty pricey ! I know a company that does plastic molding for very reasonable prices. I sent them a link and asked them if they could compete.

Tell me more about the plastic versus stainless debate. I'm not worried about scratches or disinfecting. I am worried about oxidation of the beer. Has anyone done any comparisons ? How much air gets through the plastic ?

I've got a friend that made water tanks for his RV by welding plastic sheets together. Has anyone given any thought to welding together a plastic conical fermenter ?

I got tired of racking from carboys so a few years ago I used a glass cutter to cut a hole in the bottom of a glass keg. Then I built a stand to hold it inverted and mounted a large ball valve to the regular opening, now at the bottom. It worked, I guess, but it took a lot of stirring and prodding to get the trub into the neck of the carboy. I found it wasn't really worth the effort. I think the cone needs to be a lot larger to be a good conical fermenter.

Has anyone thought of silver soldering various SS pieces together to make a conical fermenter ? See 7791A43 at www.mcmastercarr.com 1 pound of solder costs $35 dollars, but should be more than enough to solder together a fermenter and a simple propane torch should create enough heat. The joint should be well strong enough for fermentation purposes.

Just thinking out loud here.

I wouldn't trust solder. Why wouldn't you just weld it? That's what Yuri is doing in this thread. If I knew how to weld, especially stainless, that's what I do too. But alas, I don't weld, so I think my money will be better spent on buying a conical.

I wouldn't trust solder.

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silver solder is a lot stronger than lead solder. Its not a weld, but its strong. Glasses frames are silver soldered or they used to be. They might be resistance welded these days.

Why wouldn't you just weld it? That's what Yuri is doing in this thread. If I knew how to weld, especially stainless, that's what I do too. But alas, I don't weld, so I think my money will be better spent on buying a conical.

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Because I don't have a TIG welder ! If I had a TIG welder, I wouldn't have bothered asking !

I was eyeing this ParkerMP 40A Plasma Cutter/160A TIG/Stick Combo Machine on ebay.

It's affordable, which means it's probably not really a good plasma cutter or TIG welder. Anyway, it was just a thought. I don't have time to learn how to weld.

The ebay listing itself is one of the most annoying I've ever seen, but that has nothing to do with the item, just the eccentricity of the seller.

That may be a decent machine.... if you can run 220V.

Its easy to run 220V. Almost all dryers these days are 220V. Run a feed from the dryer breaker into the garage and put a 220V outlet there. Or add a new breaker to the breaker box. As a bonus, you could run high power electric elements in the brew pots.

That machine looks pretty enticing. Thanks for sharing that link. I don't think I would use it for stick welding because I don't think it is heavy enough for that. But the combo of TIG and Plasma cutting looks excellent. I'm in dire need of a plasma cutter too. The fact that they are both available in this combo makes it much easier for me to justify.

brewman ! said:

Its easy to run 220V. Almost all dryers these days are 220V. Run a feed from the dryer breaker into the garage and put a 220V outlet there. Or add a new breaker to the breaker box.

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Add another breaker...SWMBO (and you) will be pissed the first time you try to lay a bead while the dryer is running, and the breaker pops. I had two 50A 220V circuits added to my garage as my house was being built. It's perfect for my compressor, welder, and big oven (yes...in the garage).

That machine on eBay looks pretty cool, but I'm sure it's fairly minimal on features. It says "foot pedal ready," so one must not be included. Then they talk about using a foot pedal for plasma cutting - interesting... I don't think I'd like to try TIG welding without a foot pedal (or thumb control), but I can't think of many applications where varying plasma arc power is all that necessary.

Their website focuses a lot on the plasma cutting ability (quite impressive for the price), but doesn't really mention much about welding. I doubt this unit has AC welding capability (precluding you from making a decent aluminum weld) or high frequency arc-starting (meaning you have to "scratch start" - an easy way to contaminate your welds).

For the price, it looks decent - you can't beat the advertised plasma cutting ability, and you could probably put some decent welds on steel with it. Just be forewarned that what looks too good to be true probably is...

Add another breaker...SWMBO (and you) will be pissed the first time you try to lay a bead while the dryer is running, and the breaker pops. I had two 50A 220V circuits added to my garage as my house was being built. It's perfect for my compressor, welder, and big oven (yes...in the garage).

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I live in a house with a full breaker box.

I put a new 220V breaker in for the air compressor.

I doubled up the dryer breaker for the welder. I have a big 250A Miller stick welder. Its easy to prevent blowing the breaker. I just tell my wife that I am going to do some welding and not to use the dryer. No big deal.

I doubt this unit has... high frequency arc-starting (meaning you have to "scratch start" - an easy way to contaminate your welds)

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It does have hf arc starting. See the specs image.

It might not be an optimal machine. I was ready to spend more than this on just a plasma cutter, so if it was a decent plasma cutter, the TIG functionality would be a bonus.

brewman ! said:

It does have hf arc starting. See the specs image.

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Damn...I looked all over for that...

I wasn't bashing your circuit breaker setup, merely making a suggestion.

I totally agree with your opinion on the machine, but I definitely wanted to point out some of the potential flaws since the majority of the folks here aren't welders.

I never knew this sort of machine existed at all. I should spend more time learning about brewing ! I'll do a bit more research before I pull the trigger on buying one.

I've long thought that the electronic welders (TIG, MIG and Plasma) are way over priced for what is inside them.

brewman ! said:

I never knew this sort of machine existed at all. I should spend more time learning about brewing ! I'll do a bit more research before I pull the trigger on buying one.

I've long thought that the electronic welders (TIG, MIG and Plasma) are way over priced for what is inside them.

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What do you mean? I always assumed there are little gnomes in corduroy pants living inside. When you turn the machine on, they rub their legs together to make electricity. Do you think it's cheap to catch gnomes and force them to wear corduroy pants??!!!!!!

brewman ! said:

I've long thought that the electronic welders (TIG, MIG and Plasma) are way over priced for what is inside them.

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COMPLETELY agreed! I spent way too much a few years ago for the Lincoln Squarewave machine in my garage. It's treated me well, but for the price, I should be able to walk away from a project while the machine completes it! Prices have come down significantly since then, and Miller has some really attractive light/medium duty machines that I'd love to have.

If you decide to get one of these "all-in-wonder" machines, post a thread about it (so we can quit hijacking the molten plastic gamble thread). I'd love to hear how it works!

Great discussion guys !

COMPLETELY agreed! I spent way too much a few years ago for the Lincoln Squarewave machine in my garage. It's treated me well, but for the price, I should be able to walk away from a project while the machine completes it! Prices have come down significantly since then, and Miller has some really attractive light/medium duty machines that I'd love to have.

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What I can't understand is why the tiny little MIG/TIG/Plasma boxes cost as much as my big, heavy stick box.

I weld with this.
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/stick/dialarc_250_ac_dc/

It weighs 365 pounds and welds beautifully. The MIG/TIG/Plasma boxes weigh about 35 pounds ! The price of electronics has fallen like a rock.

If you decide to get one of these "all-in-wonder" machines, post a thread about it (so we can quit hijacking the molten plastic gamble thread). I'd love to hear how it works!

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I definitely will.

brewman ! said:

Great discussion guys !

What I can't understand is why the tiny little MIG/TIG/Plasma boxes cost as much as my big, heavy stick box.

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Absolutely a great discussion.

FYI, my TIG machine weighs 200+ lbs and can kick out almost 200 Amps in TIG or stick mode...not exactly a toy either. Not that it's an excuse for the cost!

Can welding be learned easily and safely at home by reading books and practicing, or is it better to take a class?

The only classes I can find are at community colleges, and they are quarter or semester long classes that are geared more for people who are going into the trade.

beer4breakfast said:

Can welding be learned easily and safely at home by reading books and practicing, or is it better to take a class?

The only classes I can find are at community colleges, and they are quarter or semester long classes that are geared more for people who are going into the trade.

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I'm fairly self-taught with a bit of hands-on instruction as well as a pretty good background in things mechanical. I HIGHLY recommend taking a class - welding is inherently dangerous and somewhat difficult to master. I'm probably going to find a community college that offers welding courses and take a few credit hours. I don't see a reason not to take a class geared toward professionals - I want professional quality welds.

Despite my lack of formal training, my welds have withstood some pretty harsh loads, including towing. I can also run beads on rather thin sheet metal with a high degree of success. Take that for what it's worth (perhaps not much...).

I saw earlier how it was brought up that a bucket would be about paper thin when you get close to 45 degrees... Well, when I was between 10 and 16 I was(ok, still am to a degree) quite destructive. We would burn anything. We(we being the neighborhood kids my age) would cut anything, shoot with what ever could be shot. When burning we had come across buckets. We would get long rods of metal hot and poke them through anything. Roadkill, trees, doggy droppings... etc. We melted a few buckets and what I always thought to be interesting is how tough even the thin spots in a bucket were. So if a bucket was paper thin I"m sure there would still be enough integrity to hold beer as long as there was a good method for holding the unit off the floor, etc... Just my 2 cents...

I use to work in a Plumbing supply shop and we had a guy we would buy sheet copper for. he used it to weld up his own Moon shine Still. He was an experienced fabricator and did a nice job, but its nothing I could ever do.

But back to the Plastic conical Bucket...I did a little searching and found this site

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...usplastic&category_name=20726&product_id=3863

they have fill buckets 15 to 88gal from $70-$200, they would need to be outfitted with valves and you would need a stand but I bet you could save a couple hundred bucks and set up a 15gal fermenter.