25ft vs 50ft immersion chiller (5 gallon batches)

I just purchased a 40qt (10gal) aluminum brew pot to start getting into doing full boils for 5 gallon batches. I don't plan on ever doing more than 5 gallons... so my question: Is 50ft immersion chiller overkill for my brew pot? Should I just get a 25ft one?

I found them on amazon for $49 (25ft) and $79 (50ft) shipped with garden hose fittings. Both are 3/8 tube. Just wondering If i should spend the extra money, or if its completely overkill for 5 gallon batches.

Thank you for your input


EDIT:
I bought the 25ft one.. decided that the 50 footer probably will not be worth it, I'll spend the extra $ on other brew supplies! Thanks everyone!

It's not overkill. It will just determine how quickly and efficiently you can cool your wort. The longer chiller will cool it faster. Everyone here is probably gonna tell you to build your own though.

Obviously the 50 ft will cool it quicker.

But I have a 25 ft and do 5 gallon batches. It cools it down in about 6-8 minutes, although my water is about 40 degrees.

BendBrewer said:

Obviously the 50 ft will cool it quicker.

But I have a 25 ft and do 5 gallon batches. It cools it down in about 6-8 minutes, although my water is about 40 degrees.

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That is pretty quick!

I guess my concern was if the 50ft one sticks out of the wort, then its not really cooling it faster and its a waste since its not submerged. I was also worried it might overfill my brew pot when placed inside it.

5 gallons of brew in a 10 gallon pot, and you're worried about it overflowing when you place your IC in? Maybe I'm missing something here, but you shouldn't have a problem.

mkory said:

5 gallons of brew in a 10 gallon pot, and you're worried about it overflowing when you place your IC in? Maybe I'm missing something here, but you shouldn't have a problem.

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Sorry I'm new to brewing... I've never used one, so I wasn't sure if placing a 50ft one in there would raise the wort level up a lot. I guess I just don't know how large they really are you know?

mkory said:

5 gallons of brew in a 10 gallon pot, and you're worried about it overflowing when you place your IC in? Maybe I'm missing something here, but you shouldn't have a problem.

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No, he's worried that the chiller will be sticking out above the level of the wort.

The cooling water heats up as it travels through the coil. Eventually it will get close in temperature to the wort. Coil length beyond this point doesn't matter. I don't know where this length is, but I would imagine it would be a function of several variables: wort temp, starting water temp, source water pressure, diameter of copper. I wonder if someone here could do a thermodynamic calculation to plot water temperature vs distance in coil. FWIW, I have a homemade 25' coil, because I'm cheap and because I mostly do 3 gallon batches.

wetherel said:

The cooling water heats up as it travels through the coil. Eventually it will get close in temperature to the wort. Coil length beyond this point doesn't matter. I don't know where this length is, but I would imagine it would be a function of several variables: wort temp, starting water temp, source water pressure, diameter of copper. I wonder if someone here could do a thermodynamic calculation to plot water temperature vs distance in coil. FWIW, I have a homemade 25' coil, because I'm cheap and because I mostly do 3 gallon batches.

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I think that you really only have to worry about that if you are using a Counter-Flow chiller which the wort is inside the tubing. Too short and it doesn't cool enough, too long and it gets too cool.

I would check your local Lowes/Home Depot/BigBoxStore before you jump for the amazon.com stuff. I saw 50 ft. of 3/8 OD refrigeration tubing at Home Depot for $46.

I'd go with the 50ft. if you can swing it. It's really not that long, and there are various ways you can coil it to make sure it all fits in your wort. It'll cool faster than 25 feet for sure, especially in the summer when your water won't be near freezing.

I can completely submerge my 50 ft. coil in about 3 1/2 gallons: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/concentric-immersion-chiller-build-157662/

robertvrabel said:

That is pretty quick!

I guess my concern was if the 50ft one sticks out of the wort, then its not really cooling it faster and its a waste since its not submerged. I was also worried it might overfill my brew pot when placed inside it.

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I had 50 ft of copper tubing, but I figured out that only about 35' of it would fit into 5 gallons of wort (algebra, baby!). So I made a 35' IC and made a nice pre-chiller with the other 15'. Figured it'd be more efficient that way. Works pretty great.

Overflowing won't be a problem for you with a 10 gallon pot.

My 50 footer fits completely submerged in my 5 gallon pot, with just under 5 gallons of wort in. I do like palefire's idea A LOT.

BendBrewer said:

I think that you really only have to worry about that if you are using a Counter-Flow chiller which the wort is inside the tubing. Too short and it doesn't cool enough, too long and it gets too cool.

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I don't think you really understand his point. What he's saying is that at some point, if your chiller is long enough, the water in the chiller will be the same temperature as the wort. Because of this it will not be doing any chilling. With a little research I could probably figure this out, so I just might if I get the time, but the point is, longer immersion chillers will cool faster up to a point. Once you get past that point, all will chill at the same speed.

slowbie said:

I don't think you really understand his point. What he's saying is that at some point, if your chiller is long enough, the water in the chiller will be the same temperature as the wort. Because of this it will not be doing any chilling. With a little research I could probably figure this out, so I just might if I get the time, but the point is, longer immersion chillers will cool faster up to a point. Once you get past that point, all will chill at the same speed.

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Gotcha. I guess at some point you would just be wasting copper or the money spent on it.

BendBrewer said:

Gotcha. I guess at some point you would just be wasting copper or the money spent on it.

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Yeah this was basically my question about "overkill" . Is 50ft of 3/8 copper... to much for doing 5 gallon batches. Obviously at some point it doesn't matter how long it is, especially if its not submerged in the wort... just curious how long that is

I looked into making my own 50' IC, but just the copper tubing for the coil was going to be pretty expensive. You can go to coppertubingsales.com and get a better price, but then there's shipping and it's still not cheap.

Then I found a 25' one on Amazon for $30. I figured I'd just try to make it work and see what happens. Here in Atlanta (so, not frigidly cold tap water like other places this time of year) I get it from a rolling boil to 80 degrees in 13 minutes. That is 100% ok with me, especially since it was taking me nearly twice that long to get 3 gallons to 80 degrees using the ice bath method.

Long story short, the 25' should work fine. However, with all ICs, your water needs to be fairly cool for it to work. It's easy to get cool tap water in the winter, but if you find you have too warm of water in the summer months, you may end up needing a second one that you pass through ice water. Personally, I think I'll be fine, but I'll be willing to change the role of my current IC to be a water prechiller come summer if I need to.

I cooled 3.5 gallons to 70ish in under 5 minutes by filling a cooler with ice, and adding a gallon of water. I attached an aquarium pump to the chiller to circulate the ice water through the copper tubing.

This method will cool down your wort quicker than hooking your chiller to a faucet, and has the benefit of not raising your water bill any more than necessary.

That idea right there ^^^ is what I hope to do. I have a small submersible pump that uses garden hose fittings. Once I make my chiller, I'll use the pump to circulate ice water through the chiller and back to the holding tank.

glenn514

o4_srt said:

I cooled 3.5 gallons to 70ish in under 5 minutes by filling a cooler with ice, and adding a gallon of water. I attached an aquarium pump to the chiller to circulate the ice water through the copper tubing.

This method will cool down your wort quicker than hooking your chiller to a faucet, and has the benefit of not raising your water bill any more than necessary.

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Sounds very efficient! Funny thing is, one of the big reasons I'm looking at a immersion chiller right now is so I don't have to store gallon size ziplock bags of ice in my freezer for ice baths. Everytime I brew right now, the week before I have to start collecting ice from my maker and just filling the bags straight up to make ice blocks. Problem is it takes up a ton of room in my freezer, and we only have 1 fridge with a small freezer... so that doesn't go over very well.

I do have a spigot in my garage which has cold water... and I live in michigan which is pretty chilly especially right now. But I do like the idea of saving $ on the water bill. But I'd pretty much have buy the Ice since I'd need a lot so that kinda defeats the savings. Until I get another fridge and don't have to worry about room, I'll have to waste water!

BendBrewer said:

Obviously the 50 ft will cool it quicker.

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In most cases it won't, because the coolant has used up all its cooling capacity in the first 10 feet of copper. 50' pretty much only helps once you start getting into .5" or larger tube.


you'd be much better off worrying about circulating the wort while its cooling than worrying about chiller length.

Synovia said:

In most cases it won't, because the coolant has used up all its cooling capacity in the first 10 feet of copper. 50' pretty much only helps once you start getting into .5" or larger tube.


you'd be much better off worrying about circulating the wort while its cooling than worrying about chiller length.

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Well, here it goes........

I use the chiller itself to kind of stir the wort while it is cooling. Not vigoursly or anything, just lift it up and move it a little. I can feel the output water cooling then heating up again with a couple of swirls of the chiller.

Is this advised or frowned upon?

BendBrewer said:

Well, here it goes........

I use the chiller itself to kind of stir the wort while it is cooling. Not vigoursly or anything, just lift it up and move it a little. I can feel the output water cooling then heating up again with a couple of swirls of the chiller.

Is this advised or frowned upon?

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100% advised. The more the wort is circulating, the quicker it will chill. It's really that simple - there are no downsides (unless you find stirring a PITA!).

I tried using a PITA Member once to stir my wort, but she screamed the moment her little feat hit the kettle. :cross:

(Thanks for the reply)

Stir, don't splash, while the wort is cooling. Between boiling and something like 90 degrees the wort is susceptible to O2 damage.

Personally, when I put in my IC to sanitize in the boil, I also put in my stirring spoon to make sure it's good and sanitized too. Then at flameout I turn on the water to the IC and every 1-2 minutes I stir the wort from the center of the IC (just enough to get it moving). The temp drops pretty fast doing that.

ardentfrost said:

Stir, don't splash, while the wort is cooling. Between boiling and something like 90 degrees the wort is susceptible to O2 damage.

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Really? Not that I splash when I stir, but it seems like the no-chill people do fine with a little splashing into the fermenter. If it's HSA, that seems to have been pretty much proven to be a myth.

Not arguing, just wondering.

Palefire said:

Really? Not that I splash when I stir, but it seems like the no-chill people do fine with a little splashing into the fermenter. If it's HSA, that seems to have been pretty much proven to be a myth.

Not arguing, just wondering.

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Just going by our buddy John Palmer on this one

howtobrew said:

The objective is to rapidly cool the wort to below 80°F before oxidation or contamination can occur.

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... and ...

howtobrew said:

Gently stir the wort in a circular manner so the maximum amount of wort is moving against the sides of the pot. Minimize splashing to avoid oxidation.

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Maybe people have tested and found Palmer to be incorrect on this. For me, however, his advice has been so specific and sage (and correct about everything else), I can't help but trust it.

I wonder if 25' is better for a gravity-fed ice water setup ( mentioned in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/wort-chiller-w-ice-water-bucket-how-big-pump-99351/index3.html ): Ice water->mash tun/cooler->hose->immersion chiller->out. I'm going to try this next time. I'll put the ice water cooler as high as possible. I imagine the throughput will be slow, but it sounds like this will be good for heat transfer.....Hmmm, on second thought: I should use tap water until the temp gets to 110F, then switch to ice water. It will require less ice water. Even with perfect heat transfer ice water only would require 15gal of ice water.

ardentfrost said:

Just going by our buddy John Palmer on this one

...

For me, however, his advice has been so specific and sage (and correct about everything else), I can't help but trust it.

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Well fair enough then! Thanks much for the info.

i did a quick calculation of temp inside the coil versus length. there's no need to go with the 50' one, its overkill. you might save a little time at the end of cooling that way, but it will be very little. when the wort is about 130 deg, i think i got that the water in the coil will need 6-8 feet to reach that temperature. less when its hotter, more when colder. i cant see spending the extra cash to save what will likely amount to about 45 seconds in cooling time. get another kit instead. better use or brew cash.

techrunner said:

i did a quick calculation of temp inside the coil versus length. there's no need to go with the 50' one, its overkill. you might save a little time at the end of cooling that way, but it will be very little. when the wort is about 130 deg, i think i got that the water in the coil will need 6-8 feet to reach that temperature. less when its hotter, more when colder. i cant see spending the extra cash to save what will likely amount to about 45 seconds in cooling time. get another kit instead. better use or brew cash.

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May I ask how you calculated this? Just curious

That is what I was afraid of... that 50' isn't necessary for 5 gallons. If it made a huge difference I would definitely get it, I only want to have to buy one and do it right the first time! But from the majority of posts it seems like 25' will be just right for 5 gallon batches.

25 or 50 foot... either way you're going to have a good set up.
It beats buying ice and cooling in your sink, and personally I think that is the best part about it. Obviously a foot 50 coil will cool faster. If you don't think so, then you know nothing about thermodynamics. I have a 50 foot 3/8" chiller and it will cool 4 gallons in about 5 minutes (using input water of about 55 degrees)
Stirring your wort is the most important part. Your 25 foot chiller would work faster than my 50 foot, granted you stirred and I didn't.

I think you'll be happy with a 25 foot chiller, and a little happier with a 50 foot chiller.

i did a quick numerical calculation, a while ago. i got somewhere around 6.8 feet i think, but that was very rough. i actually treated the coil as a mass, and looked at the temperature only. it will depend on the flow rate through the coil, and i guess when i did it i was assuming that the flow would be very low, due to the fact that i was planning on recirculating ice water. if you know roughly your pressure at the tap, you would need that to determine the flow rate, then use that to determine the heat transfers based on how fast the water was moving. i kinda gave up on it after that first pass, i just had a ballpark number and got my 25' copper coil. i haven't gotten a pump yet to have flow specs to work with. obviuosly the flow of water will move the point at which the cold water reaches temperature equilibrium with your wort farther down, but i cant see te increase in cost for the 50' coil really doing you much good. 10 gallons, maybe, might save 2-3 minutes, but still not going to be a huge deal. i might have to revisit that problem now though, this thread kinda got me thinking again.

IceFisherChris said:

25 or 50 foot... either way you're going to have a good set up.
It beats buying ice and cooling in your sink, and personally I think that is the best part about it. Obviously a foot 50 coil will cool faster. If you don't think so, then you know nothing about thermodynamics. I have a 50 foot 3/8" chiller and it will cool 4 gallons in about 5 minutes (using input water of about 55 degrees)
Stirring your wort is the most important part. Your 25 foot chiller would work faster than my 50 foot, granted you stirred and I didn't.

I think you'll be happy with a 25 foot chiller, and a little happier with a 50 foot chiller.

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The rate at which a chiller cools the wort is completely dependent on the temperature gradient between the coolant and the wort. Using copper, in the sizes we use, the coolant is the same temperature as the wort within a matter of feet.

Unless you're running 50 degree water through one at very high velocity, a longer chiller will not make any difference.


IF you want to cool faster, there are 2 ways to do it:

1) Push MORE water through. (via higher velocity, or multiple tubes)

2) Push COLDER water though.

I have a 50' coil... it will be FULLY submerged in a 10 gallon batch, it will only be HALF submerged in a 5 gallon batch...

It would be a waste in a 5 gallon batch in my case, to have more than 25'

Synovia said:

The rate at which a chiller cools the wort is completely dependent on the temperature gradient between the coolant and the wort. Using copper, in the sizes we use, the coolant is the same temperature as the wort within a matter of feet.

Unless you're running 50 degree water through one at very high velocity, a longer chiller will not make any difference.


IF you want to cool faster, there are 2 ways to do it:

1) Push MORE water through. (via higher velocity, or multiple tubes)

2) Push COLDER water though.

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You're partly right, but only for the first 30 seconds or so of chilling. A 25 and 50 foot coil will suck away the same amount of heat if they have the same water flow and the same output temperature. This situation is where coil length doesn't really matter, when you can't flow enough water to compensate for the extreme amount of heat transfer.
However, once your wort starts to cool, the greater surface area of the 50 foot coil will grab more heat from the liquid.


Guys, the wort is not ALWAYS boiling hot!!! I think everyone is forgetting this. A 50 foot chiller is overkill for boiling wort, because our sinks just can't flow enough water. But for the last 90% of the chilling session, our sinks CAN flow enough water to make a 50 foot chiller work better than a 25 footer. In fact, they could most likely flow enough water to make a 100 foot chiller work fine.

I guess this turned out to be a pretty interesting discussion! Seems like everyone has their own views on which is better. What IceFisherChris just said makes total sense to me. I guess the question is, is the 50ft one WORTH the extra the money for the benefits in a 5 gallon batch. If it cools it 1 minute faster, then to me its not worth it... if it was like 2x as fast then I could the benefit. Its clear it would be better, but how much better is the question... since its a lot more $.

As of right now I'm leaning more towards the 25ft one, and I'll spend the extra money on something else for brewing... unless someone can convince me otherwise

robertvrabel said:

I guess this turned out to be a pretty interesting discussion! Seems like everyone has their own views on which is better. What IceFisherChris just said makes total sense to me. I guess the question is, is the 50ft one WORTH the extra the money for the benefits in a 5 gallon batch. If it cools it 1 minute faster, then to me its not worth it... if it was like 2x as fast then I could the benefit. Its clear it would be better, but how much better is the question... since its a lot more $.

As of right now I'm leaning more towards the 25ft one, and I'll spend the extra money on something else for brewing... unless someone can convince me otherwise

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I got a 25' one and it works, so I'm on that side

Even if the 50' one cooled the wort in half the time, the 25' still cools mine in 12-13 minutes. That's well under Palmer's suggested cool time.

If I had the money, I would definitely be willing to test the difference between a 25 and 50 foot cooler. And no, I won't chop coils off my 50 footer

There's an immersion chiller issue that's been bugging me...

After the cool water intake has reached equilibrium with the wort, wouldn't the rest of the length of copper be irrelevant? For example, if I have a 50' chiller with 190F wort and 60F water, if the water reaches 185 at 32', wouldn't the last 18' be worthless? I suppose it might become useful again as the wort temperature drops more.

Thoughts?

Franc103 said:

There's an immersion chiller issue that's been bugging me...

After the cool water intake has reached equilibrium with the wort, wouldn't the rest of the length of copper be irrelevant? For example, if I have a 50' chiller with 190F wort and 60F water, if the water reaches 185 at 32', wouldn't the last 18' be worthless? I suppose it might become useful again as the wort temperature drops more.

Thoughts?

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Basically yes, makes sense that i would become unless past that point. I started this thread a long time ago... and I do now have a 50' chiller because my 25' one was terribly designed (you get what you pay for). Now that I have a 50' one, I can now use it for 10g batches if I choose to do so (which will be a couple times a year).

So I wish I would have just gone with a 50' one from the start. My new one doesn't bend easily (old one crimped) and the connections are MUCH better and don't leak. I purchased mine from morebeer.com