Can someone help me break this down?

Hey everyone,
So I just recently got the test results back for the source in which we will be getting our water. This was actually taken from a artesian well/spring which has become quite iconic in the community where we will be one day opening up our brew pub. I have been getting pretty in depth with water chemistry the last few weeks and downloaded the EZ Water Spreadsheets from TH. So I was curious to know, the two ales that we have been working on and perfecting the last year have been our flagship stout and the other being an IPA. I was just curious to get your thoughts on these numbers for this water and your thoughts on the high alkalinity. I would really like to use this water being that its a local source that could play into our business and selling point. What can I do to lower the mash pH for our stout and where should the residual alkalinity be for a stout, negative numbers if I am correct?...Well anyways here are the numbers. Thanks for the input guys!

pH 7.5
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 330
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.55
Cations / Anions, me/L 6.6 / 7.0
ppm
Sodium, Na 10
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 78
Magnesium, Mg 27
Total Hardness, CaCO3 308
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 5
Chloride, Cl 2
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 400
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 328
Total Phosphorus, P 0.23
Total Iron, Fe 0.31
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

Sorry I said it wrong...for a stout your residual alkalinity should be positive or higher numbers...

The alkalinity is disastrously high and will have to be dealt with somehow. The easiest thing to do would be run this water through an RO system and build the calcium, chloride and, if desired, sulfate back up. This will not only solve the alkalinity problem but the iron problem. The water is above the secondary MCL for iron which is 3 times the practical limit for brewing so if you are determined to keep this water for marketing or whatever reasons you will have to deal with the iron by filtration and the alkalinity by boiling or lime treatment. You've got almost 4 mEq/L calcium and 2.2 Mg but 6.5 alkalinity so you will have to build the calcium up somewhat in order to get the alkalinity down to around 1 (50 ppm as CaCO3) which is about as high as you want it to get. You could add 161 mg/L calcium chloride and 215 mg/L gypsum. This would get you enough additional calcium to insure good decarbonation with boiling or lime and would raise the chloride to 90 which would be beneficial and the sulfate to about 135 which can be good but limits the styles you can do somewhat. Make these additions before boiling or adding lime.

You will need to experiment with and tweak the decarbonation protocol in order to get the finished characteristics you want. This is not very good water for brewing and you will doubtless make better beer faster if you effectively discard it by running it through an RO system. Yes you can brew with it but it will present challenges.

ajdelange said:

The alkalinity is disastrously high and will have to be dealt with somehow. The easiest thing to do would be run this water through an RO system and build the calcium, chloride and, if desired, sulfate back up. This will not only solve the alkalinity problem but the iron problem. The water is above the secondary MCL for iron which is 3 times the practical limit for brewing so if you are determined to keep this water for marketing or whatever reasons you will have to deal with the iron by filtration and the alkalinity by boiling or lime treatment. You've got almost 4 mEq/L calcium and 2.2 Mg but 6.5 alkalinity so you will have to build the calcium up somewhat in order to get the alkalinity down to around 50 which is about as high as you want it to get. You could add 161 mg/L calcium chloride and 215 mg/L gypsum. This would get you enough additional calcium to insure good decarbonation with boiling or lime and would raise the chloride to 90 which would be beneficial and the sulfate to about 135 which can be good but limits the styles you can do somewhat. Make these additions before boiling or adding lime.

You will need to experiment with and tweak the decarbonation protocol in order to get the finished characteristics you want. This is not very good water for brewing and you will doubtless make better beer faster if you effectively discard it by running it through an RO system. Yes you can brew with it but it will present challenges.

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Yea this is what I kind of figured. I just do not know where to get good water. I got reports back for my house tap water as well and the alkalinity is still in the 200's! Not only that the guy that works for the public works office said it's tough with city water because the numbers can flucuate. Any ideas on where I can get some good water? We had been using spring water and/or the refilling the jugs from the local grocery store but that too we have no idea what is in it...We may have to take that store bought spring water and send in a sample...

I'd look for a good source of distilled or get an RV RO system.

They can be pretty pricey, but it would be worth it if you really want to get consistent results:

http://www.rvwaterfilterstore.com/WCRO.htm

Many grocery stores now have water dispensers with RO water for .37. Walmart has them also, for about a quarter a gallon

Grinder12000 said:

Many grocery stores now have water dispensers with RO water for .37. Walmart has them also, for about a quarter a gallon

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HIGHWAY ROBBERY!!!

Actually, that's pretty cool. Nice way to get your feet wet in building water without an expensive investment.

Yes. I said getting your feet wet. See what I did there?

Pugs13 said:

... the guy that works for the public works office said it's tough with city water because the numbers can flucuate. Any ideas on where I can get some good water?

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The variability screams RO as loudly as the high alkalinity and hardness. You basically have the choice in situations like this of RO or constant testing.

Grinder12000 said:

Many grocery stores now have water dispensers with RO water for .37. Walmart has them also, for about a quarter a gallon

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This is what we were doing but how can we know what is in this as well? Should we take a sample and get it tested too?

Hmm. I'm not sure what AJ is looking at. This water is ideal for lime softening with 100% temporary hardness. In addition, the iron is right at the secondary maximum contaminant level of 0.3 ppm which is also its typical taste threshold. There is no need to treat for iron removal.

In the case of this water, an Excess Lime softening process is quite suitable for treating this water. This process will bring the calcium down to around 30 ppm and the magnesium down to around 10 ppm when performed correctly. The alkalinity is effectively reduced too.

AJ is correct that the easiest and surest way to treat this water is with RO. But if you don't have the cash for the RO equipment and upkeep, then the lime softening option is far cheaper. Lime softening just takes time and a little bit of equipment to accomplish effectively. You can even use pH strips for the pH checking that you need to perform with this method, but a meter is better.

The variability of the OP's tap water quality is troubling. They need to find out what process the supplier is using to soften their tap water. If its via an ion-exchange process, they will need to forget about using the tap water for brewing. If the variability is because they sometimes get their water from a reservoir and sometimes from groundwater, then the lime softening will cover the bases. No need to worry about variability in that case. Treat all the tap water with the lime softening process and all the water should be consistent.

The next version of Bru'n Water includes lime-softening calculators and should be a good tool for users dealing with this sort of problem.

mabrungard said:

Hmm. I'm not sure what AJ is looking at. This water is ideal for lime softening with 100% temporary hardness. In addition, the iron is right at the secondary maximum contaminant level of 0.3 ppm which is also its typical taste threshold. There is no need to treat for iron removal.

In the case of this water, an Excess Lime softening process is quite suitable for treating this water. This process will bring the calcium down to around 30 ppm and the magnesium down to around 10 ppm when performed correctly. The alkalinity is effectively reduced too.

AJ is correct that the easiest and surest way to treat this water is with RO. But if you don't have the cash for the RO equipment and upkeep, then the lime softening option is far cheaper. Lime softening just takes time and a little bit of equipment to accomplish effectively. You can even use pH strips for the pH checking that you need to perform with this method, but a meter is better.

The variability of the OP's tap water quality is troubling. They need to find out what process the supplier is using to soften their tap water. If its via an ion-exchange process, they will need to forget about using the tap water for brewing. If the variability is because they sometimes get their water from a reservoir and sometimes from groundwater, then the lime softening will cover the bases. No need to worry about variability in that case. Treat all the tap water with the lime softening process and all the water should be consistent.

The next version of Bru'n Water includes lime-softening calculators and should be a good tool for users dealing with this sort of problem.

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Thanks so much for the info. So I will take this post as a sign of hope for this water source. We may have to just keep playing around with it and see what we can do.
The water that we were getting from the local grocery store was from a RO machine they have. Not sure if this means anything but it may help clear some things up with that side...Thanks again.

mabrungard said:

Hmm. I'm not sure what AJ is looking at. This water is ideal for lime softening with 100% temporary hardness. In addition, the iron is right at the secondary maximum contaminant level of 0.3 ppm which is also its typical taste threshold. There is no need to treat for iron removal.

In the case of this water, an Excess Lime softening process is quite suitable for treating this water. This process will bring the calcium down to around 30 ppm and the magnesium down to around 10 ppm when performed correctly. The alkalinity is effectively reduced too.

AJ is correct that the easiest and surest way to treat this water is with RO. But if you don't have the cash for the RO equipment and upkeep, then the lime softening option is far cheaper. Lime softening just takes time and a little bit of equipment to accomplish effectively. You can even use pH strips for the pH checking that you need to perform with this method, but a meter is better.

The variability of the OP's tap water quality is troubling. They need to find out what process the supplier is using to soften their tap water. If its via an ion-exchange process, they will need to forget about using the tap water for brewing. If the variability is because they sometimes get their water from a reservoir and sometimes from groundwater, then the lime softening will cover the bases. No need to worry about variability in that case. Treat all the tap water with the lime softening process and all the water should be consistent.

The next version of Bru'n Water includes lime-softening calculators and should be a good tool for users dealing with this sort of problem.

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Also, I was curious. What kind of equipment are we talking about when it comes to being able to lime soften and where can I get this? Would you be able to break down the process of doing something like this? Thanks again

The excess lime softening process is easy to do. You need to pick up some pickling lime which is also known as slaked lime. The most common commercial brand is Mrs. Wages. Its cheap, like $6 for a pound and that will treat 1000's of gallons. You also need some way to measure pH. A calibrated pH meter is best, but as I said, good pH strips will work well in this case since you're dealing with water and not wort. Finally, you need some large vessels to treat the water in.

Since magnesium needs to be precipitated from this water, the excess lime procedure is called for. That requires raising the water pH to at least 11 in order to precipitate the magnesium hydroxide along with the calcium carbonate. You can do the lime addition by trial and error, but the best way is to calculate the dose first and check the pH after to assure the 11 pH was met. After the lime is in the water, it clouds up the water. Let that cloudiness sediment to the bottom of the pot and then decant or siphon that water off the sediment.

That water pH is too high to use in brewing. You have to neutralize the high pH. An easy yet slow way is to bubble air through the treated water. An aquarium pump and airstone are good for this. In my water treatment profession, we may pass the treated water over a cascade aerator to get air in the water. In both cases, we are trying to get the CO2 from the air into the water to provide carbonic acid to neutralize the high pH. A quicker yet more expensive way to neutralize the pH is by acid addition. The goal is to bring the treated water pH to somewhere less than about 8.6.

There are other lime softening methodologies, but they would not be suitable for this water since they don't remove Mg. I believe Hubie Hangover has a summary and Kai Troester does too.

Anyone with a water source with high temporary hardness can use lime softening. It just takes a little bit of equipment but a day or two of time. With proper planning, this is a very feasible alternative to buying RO water or a RO machine. Enjoy!

mabrungard said:

Hmm. I'm not sure what AJ is looking at. This water is ideal for lime softening with 100% temporary hardness.

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My concern is that he's got 6.6 mEq/L alkalinity but only 3.89 mEq/L Calcium and 2.22 mEq/L Magnesium (for a total of 6.11). Magnesium carbonate is 1.7 orders of magnitude more soluble than calcium carbonate (pKs 5 as opposed to 8.5) and so will not, if boiling is being used, precipitate bicarbonate as effectively as calcium. Thus the obvious solution for boiling is to add any calcium that one would subsequently add to make up for lost calcium during the decarbonation prior to boiling in order to push
Ca++ + 2HCO3- ---> CO2 + H2O + Ca++
to the right by Le Chatelier thus maximizing alkalinity reduction which is the goal. I've shown experimentally that it is possible to get alkalinity below 50 ppm as CaCO3 using this simple technique. But things stay simple because the pH stays low and we don't have to worry about magnesium - it doesn't precipitate.

If lime treatment is considered things become more complex, much more complex because of all the forms (brucite, mangesite, nesquehonite, dolomite, hydromagensite) that magnesium, calcium and carbonate can coalesce into. The chemistry is not completely understood (certainly not by me anyway). Widely divergent values for equilibrium constants are published... One can do calculations that assume
Mg++ + 2HCO3- + 2Ca++ + 4OH- ---> Mg(OH)2 + 2CaCO3 + 2H20
goes all the way to the right but it is much more complicated than that. Which is why DeClerck (and non brewing water treatment texts) recommend trials with varying amounts of lime with the most effective dose being scaled up for the actual treatment.

Note that additional calcium will push the Mg++ lime reaction to the right thus removing more bicarbonate (and magnesium). It will also push
Ca++ + 2HCO3- + Ca++ + 2(OH)- ---> 2CaCO3 + 2H2O
to the right so that, as my experiments showed, one can get less than 50 ppm alkalinity with lime treatment too by adding supplemental calcium before the treatment.

IMO lime treatment is a big PITA relative to boiling or RO at the home brew scale. One has to understand the process, one has to do the calculations, one has to do the test batches (and analyze them for Ca and Mg hardness and alkalinity), one has to correct the post treatment pH by sparging with CO2 or adding another acid and one has to have a pH meter to monitor what's happening during the process. At larger scale it is obviously the way to go as no energy is consumed, the safety factor and the fact that larger operations have the labs for the jar tests. Hubert Hanghofer's method makes it about as easy as it can be - quickie calculation based on alkalinity and hardness, add to the water and then neutralize with more water until target pH is reached. No experiments and no understanding but one still needs a pH meter.

mabrungard said:

In addition, the iron is right at the secondary maximum contaminant level of 0.3 ppm which is also its typical taste threshold. There is no need to treat for iron removal.

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The secondary MCL is the level at which the water in not pleasing aesthetically. I wouldn't brew beer with water that is not aesthetically pleasing. Note that in the UK the secondary MCL is 0.2 mg/L and texts indicate that iron in brewing water should be at no more than 0.1 mg/L (1/3 the MCL). Matter of taste I suppose and if you can live with water with that much iron then you don't need to worry about it. I'll also note that iron removal is not that hard and that the lime treatment can remove some as the hydroxide.

mabrungard said:

In the case of this water, an Excess Lime softening process is quite suitable for treating this water. This process will bring the calcium down to around 30 ppm and the magnesium down to around 10 ppm when performed correctly. The alkalinity is effectively reduced too.

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It would be well to remember that the goal here is to reduce the alkalinity, not soften the water. Many would find 30 ppm calcium inadequate at that level and would add a supplement. Might as well do it ahead of time and get rid of extra bicarb.

AJ is correct that the easiest and surest way to treat this water is with RO. But if you don't have the cash for the RO equipment and upkeep, then the lime softening option is far cheaper. Lime softening just takes time and a little bit of equipment to accomplish effectively. You can even use pH strips for the pH checking that you need to perform with this method, but a meter is better.

mabrungard said:

Treat all the tap water with the lime softening process and all the water should be consistent.

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Don't follow that. Generally, one can decarbonate to about 1 mEq/l but that's generally. Plus OP would have to do an analysis before each treatment to determine how much lime to add or use Hubert's method with a WAG. If he wants consistency his best bet is clearly RO.

[Edit]On reflection I guess analysis, multiple trials and post trial analysis would not be necessary if split treatment were used i.e. trickle in lime until pH were 10.5 -11, decant off Mg(OH)2 then neutralize back to 8.3 or so with more of the source water.

mabrungard said:

There are other lime softening methodologies, but they would not be suitable for this water since they don't remove Mg. I believe Hubie Hangover has a summary and Kai Troester does too.

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The 'split treatment' described by Hubert, deClerck, Kai and others, does remove magnesium (but not all of it). It has been used by breweries for probably over 100 years. It's description will be found in any brewing text with a water chapter/section. And while it is not relevant to the technical discussion I must say that I don't think it is appropriate to refer to Hubert as Hubie Hangover. AFAIK he is a respected member of his profession (water treatment engineer) and his brewing site has taught thousands how to use lime treatment (and a lot more as well).

What if I just take these numbers and dilute it with distilled water...My cousin works for a water treatment company and he ran the numbers and said that we could easily fix this by lets say...take 4 gallons of distilled and use 1 gallon with these numbers...We may do that to get the pH down and Alkalinity.
Does anyone know with this EZ spreadsheet calculator where it states "Mash Water" - "Gallons" does this mean only the amount of water you are using to mash or your whole target batch size? Another question I have is the process of doing this...meaning lets say we have our water ready to mash, the pH and all the numbers are ready...it goes great...do we sparge with the same water? Meaning do you just get lets say 7 gallons of water ready and use for the whole brewing process...or do you only use it for your mash process? I guess I am confusing myself...sorry...Thanks!

Hold on now, I have text after text for water treatment that indicate that Mg is not removed. The solubility of Mg(OH)2 is still too high until the pH is driven to above 11. Please point out your references because I cannot find any water treatment texts that say otherwise. Split treatment will not remove Mg unless the lime treated component is taken above 11.

My apologies for the misuse of Hubert's name. From what I can gather, he is not a water treatment engineer. He shows up as a chemist in the reference I have seen. In case you didn't know, I am a practicing and licensed Environmental Engineer that includes water treatment in my experience and training.

In going over Hubert's instructions on his site, I note that there was a mistake that clued me in to his limited knowledge. Someone trained in engineering would not have made that mistake to leave the decarbonation component of the lime dosage out. Fortunately, the error is somewhat minor and relatively inconsequential when performing split-treatment to around a pH of 10 for calcium precipitation.

On to iron. In reviewing Malting and Brewing Science, I do see that they list the permissible limit for iron at 0.1 ppm. But they go on to say that 1 ppm is excessive. Given the typical human taste threshold is quoted at around 0.3 ppm, I'm not sure that this level of iron is going to be detrimental to beer perception. I have not brewed with water of that quality, so I can't say for sure. That wide range stated in MBS suggests that 0.3 ppm may be acceptable.

I still stand by the statement that ignoring the variability in the water supply will still be OK. Even if the lime dosage was tailored to only the worst case conditions, the net effect is that the water pH would just be more difficult to neutralize. The ending calcium and magnesium content will be similar since the process is running up against the solubility limits for those minerals.

Regarding the calculations, I think that if brewers had a tool that did the lime treatment calculations for them and also provided the estimated finished water quality, I think that they would appreciate that. Fortunately, the engineering texts I have provide the tools needed to develop something like that. Hopefully the rest of the software will be tested soon and the brewing community will have that tool to make this lime-treatment chore a little easier!

I will also reiterate: "AJ is correct that the easiest and surest way to treat this water is with RO. But if you don't have the cash for the RO equipment and upkeep, then the lime softening option is far cheaper. Lime softening just takes time and a little bit of equipment to accomplish effectively. You can even use pH strips for the pH checking that you need to perform with this method, but a meter is better."

Also...for the calculator...I cannot find anything about this...but does Flaked Barley change any factors in your mash? I am using 1lbs. for our stout...but not sure what to put in the cells to accomadate for it...

Pugs13 said:

What if I just take these numbers and dilute it with distilled water...My cousin works for a water treatment company and he ran the numbers and said that we could easily fix this by lets say...take 4 gallons of distilled and use 1 gallon with these numbers...We may do that to get the pH down and Alkalinity.

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Clearly, that's the easiest way to do things and what I recommend for most brewers. If $ are an issue to the point where you cannot afford to buy an RO system or RO water (but can afford a pH meter and the salts) then you must use other means but it's hard to beat RO for simplicity.

ajdelange said:

Clearly, that's the easiest way to do things and what I recommend for most brewers. If $ are an issue to the point where you cannot afford to buy an RO system or RO water (but can afford a pH meter and the salts) then you must use other means but it's hard to beat RO for simplicity.

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Well that is probably what we will do then. Would you be able to help me with the other questions I had above about the process and also the EZ Spreadsheet question? I guess I was curious to know the process to go about brewing now...do we get about 7 gallons ready with all minerals ready at one time then take that and use 1.25qt./lbs of grain for our mash and then use the same stuff for sparging to get up to about 6 gallons for boil or do we just modify the water needed for mash and use plain distilled for sparging...I mean now that we are modifying the water this seems like a whole new process...This is where I am confused on the spreadsheet for "Mash Water" - "Volume Gallons". Does this mean only the amount you are using for mash or how big of batch you are brewing. Sorry, I think I am just reading into it more that I have to...I probably sound like an idiot but I don't care...we really just want to nail down this process now that we can finally mess around with our water...Thanks

mabrungard said:

Hold on now, I have text after text for water treatment that indicate that Mg is not removed. The solubility of Mg(OH)2 is still too high until the pH is driven to above 11.

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Things don't switch at pH 11. The solubiility of Mg(OH2) is less at 11 than it is at 10 but it's about an order of magnitude different. That said there is no question that one wants to get the pH high. That's the whole basis. The theory is that you add all the lime to part of the water. That precipitates the Mg(OH2). When you decant you have water low in carbonate and magnesium but high in hydroxyl alkalinity. You have removed magnesium from a portion of the water. You then blend that back with the remainder of the volume to be treated and the excess Ca and OH precipitate the bicarb from that.

mabrungard said:

Please point out your references because I cannot find any water treatment texts that say otherwise. Split treatment will not remove Mg unless the lime treated component is taken above 11.

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Let's start with DeClerck: Vol I p 81 - 82. He clearly states that a large excess of lime must be added to the sub volume in order to convert magnesium bicarbonate to the carbonate but the equation on p82 clearly shows that it is converted to the hydroxide.

Water Treatment Principals and Design on p1602 (2nd Edition) describes split treatment in essentially the same terms as DeClerck

Faust and Aly (Chemistry of Water Treatement, 2nd Edition) describe a case study (p340 et. seq.) in which the water of Owosso had its magnesium content reduced from well over 121 - 164 to 18 - 78 with the variations being month to month.

It's mentioned in Brewing Science and Practice, Briggs et. al. (p61)

mabrungard said:

My apologies for the misuse of Hubert's name.

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My suggestion would be that you edit your post to correct his name and I edit mine, including this one, to remove all reference to this.

mabrungard said:

I note that there was a mistake that clued me in to his limited knowledge. Someone trained in engineering would not have made that mistake to leave the decarbonation component of the lime dosage out. Fortunately, the error is somewhat minor and relatively inconsequential when performing split-treatment to around a pH of 10 for calcium precipitation.

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I'm not sure the omission wasn't intentional. His approach is to look at this as a titration. You don't need to measure or calculate anything if you do it his way. Just get the pH up with lime and bring it back with HCO3- (after getting the water off the sludge).

mabrungard said:

On to iron. In reviewing Malting and Brewing Science, I do see that they list the permissible limit for iron at 0.1 ppm. But they go on to say that 1 ppm is excessive. Given the typical human taste threshold is quoted at around 0.3 ppm, I'm not sure that this level of iron is going to be detrimental to beer perception. I have not brewed with water of that quality, so I can't say for sure. That wide range stated in MBS suggests that 0.3 ppm may be acceptable.

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Im a big proponent of de gustibus non est disputandem. If someone likes the taste of iron then he should add iron. The fact that brewing texts suggest a maximum level half the UK and 1/3 the US MCL suggests to me that most people don't.

mabrungard said:

I still stand by the statement that ignoring the variability in the water supply will still be OK. Even if the lime dosage was tailored to only the worst case conditions, the net effect is that the water pH would just be more difficult to neutralize. The ending calcium and magnesium content will be similar since the process is running up against the solubility limits for those minerals.

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All the sources I mentioned emphasize the importance of testing. The case study shows the wide variability of possible results as a function of variability in the source water and the mysteries that surround the carbonate/magnesium/calcium system. Again it is a matter of personal preference. Those who wish to fly blind may fly blind. I guess I keep thinking that there is no need to when RO is such a simple solution. No need to test or measure anything with any device more sophisticated than a teaspoon. But you do need a source of RO.

Or... You could just buy 5-gallon things of Poland Springs from Maine, and brew Czech Pils all day long.

Chesterbelloc said:

Or... You could just buy 5-gallon things of Poland Springs from Maine, and brew Czech Pils all day long.

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ORRR...people could stop arguing about who is right or wrong or whos knows more and just help answer my other questions...HAHA!...

Pugs13 said:

I had above about the process and also the EZ Spreadsheet question?

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Can't help with the spreadheet. I can't even open it.

Pugs13 said:

I guess I was curious to know the process to go about brewing now...do we get about 7 gallons ready with all minerals ready at one time then take that and use 1.25qt./lbs of grain for our mash and then use the same stuff for sparging to get up to about 6 gallons for boil or do we just modify the water needed for mash and use plain distilled for sparging...

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Judging from the frequency of similar questions it seems there is a lot of confusion over this.

If you are taking RO water and adding calcium chloride and calcium sulfate to it then there is no need to do anything more complicated than to treat the entire volume of water the same way. I.e. the mash water, the sparge water, the make up water are all the same.