i found this site http://www.talgov.com/you/water/pdf/2007cotwqr.pdf for a water report. i live in tallahasse and i am on city water from these guys but it doesnt seem to have the info i need. anyone find it on here?
water report, i guess
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What a coincedence.... I got my water report for Port St. Lucie today in the mail. Shows the quality for both treatment plants. I haven't had time to really look at it, but the map on the back shows that I get a "blend" from both plants... if they're pretty close to the same, it may be useful, but if they vary by much, not real sure that it'll be worth anything.
Allan
Allan
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
This water report only lists contaminants, so it is not the complete thing. I would call them and ask for the complete water quality report including all water quality parameters.
I did a quick search on talgov.com and didn't find it. So perhaps they will have to mail it to you.
I did a quick search on talgov.com and didn't find it. So perhaps they will have to mail it to you.
FlyGuy said:
It is also a good idea to tell them why you need the water report. That way, you provide a valid reason for needing to know the information, and the water company is less likely to think of you as a trouble maker.
-a.
I think "I'm paying for the water, and I drink it" is valid enough reason, no?ajf said:
Seriously, I believe they're legally required to give it to you if you're a customer and you ask.
Brewer3401
Well-Known Member
Got mine last week - Slidell La. (very soft water). Same thing, only the bad stuff.
I called to ask about what we need to know, and the guy probably thought I was a Martian or something. He had a hard time finding the info.
I use HACH test strips to determine calcium, and used this map as a starting point: http://water.usgs.gov/owg/map1.jpeg
From where I live, the only time I do not add gypsum is if I'm doing a Bohemian Pilsner - everything else gets a minimum of 1/4 tsp gypsum per 3 gallons of water. Per the strips, this is 120-150 ppm calcium.
I called to ask about what we need to know, and the guy probably thought I was a Martian or something. He had a hard time finding the info.
I use HACH test strips to determine calcium, and used this map as a starting point: http://water.usgs.gov/owg/map1.jpeg
From where I live, the only time I do not add gypsum is if I'm doing a Bohemian Pilsner - everything else gets a minimum of 1/4 tsp gypsum per 3 gallons of water. Per the strips, this is 120-150 ppm calcium.
Forget about using your municipality to obtain a water report. Although they are required to give you one upon request, it's been my experience that their numbers are not accurate, for whatever reason.
Contact Ward Labs and spend the $15 for the W-6 Household Mineral Test, or the W-5 test for $9 more if you have concerns about iron and fluoride. This will tell you everything that you need to know about what's in your water.
As far as understanding what you are looking at, check out the chapter in "How to Brew" on Understanding Mash pH. This should give you a good foundation of knowledge to build on as you go forward.
Contact Ward Labs and spend the $15 for the W-6 Household Mineral Test, or the W-5 test for $9 more if you have concerns about iron and fluoride. This will tell you everything that you need to know about what's in your water.
As far as understanding what you are looking at, check out the chapter in "How to Brew" on Understanding Mash pH. This should give you a good foundation of knowledge to build on as you go forward.
sphericalcamel
Well-Known Member
I wonder if it is a law that they send out water reports at the beginning of July each year since I just got mine this week also.
Brewer3401
Well-Known Member
Ward Labs - thanks for info.
I use a Pur water filter, so I think most of the nasties are gone (slow as hell though)
I do want to know Sulfates and other things my water company doesn't have a clue about.
I use a Pur water filter, so I think most of the nasties are gone (slow as hell though)
I do want to know Sulfates and other things my water company doesn't have a clue about.
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
johnsma22 said:
John -- I am not sure why you would suggest that municipal water reports are necessarily inaccurate. I suspect any discrepancies you have observed are more likely related to variability in the water source. For example, here in Calgary our water source is from mountain-fed streams. During this time of year (peak run-off), the chemical constitution of our water changes significantly. The nice thing about getting a municipal water report is that it should report the variability in water chemistry, such as min and max Ca and Mg (at least mine does). A sample sent to Ward labs for analysis will only give you the water chemistry at that single point in time.
Having said that, I think your idea is an excellent one. I would just add that pursuing the municipal water report may still be useful, especially if it reports the range of variability in water chemistry.
I have a friend that works for our local water municipality. The info that is required to be published and given to the public only contains the amounts of the regulated contaminants. And even those are a yearly average of the contaminants that are sampled for. Our municipality does not publish the ion concentrations that brewers need. My friend told me that when people call to obtain more info than what is required by law, the results they give come from the different test points that they have around the system, and again, are also averages. My statements are based on my municipality, other's around the country may be different.
I do agree that the sample that I sent to Ward Labs from my faucet is only a snapshot in time from a single location, but it beats the averaged numbers that the municipality provided me. My Ward Labs reports have differed greatly in ion concentration from what my municipality has reported to me.
So far I have obtained eight reports from Ward Labs over the last year to build a reference for seasonal changes in my water's ion concentrations. With those eight reports I can make seasonal adjustments or just use the average to get close enough.
FWIW, the differences from those eight reports obtained throughout the last year are not significant. So I feel confident going with the numbers I have now.
I do agree that the sample that I sent to Ward Labs from my faucet is only a snapshot in time from a single location, but it beats the averaged numbers that the municipality provided me. My Ward Labs reports have differed greatly in ion concentration from what my municipality has reported to me.
So far I have obtained eight reports from Ward Labs over the last year to build a reference for seasonal changes in my water's ion concentrations. With those eight reports I can make seasonal adjustments or just use the average to get close enough.
FWIW, the differences from those eight reports obtained throughout the last year are not significant. So I feel confident going with the numbers I have now.
Brewer3401
Well-Known Member
Maybe not practical, but if you started with distilled or RO water, it would have nothing in it.
From there, you could build your water based on whatever profile you wanted.
...........giving me an idea..........SWMBO hair will probably stick straight up when she hears about this one. The autoclave and glycol chiller idea didn't work, maybe a RO machine will.
From there, you could build your water based on whatever profile you wanted.
...........giving me an idea..........SWMBO hair will probably stick straight up when she hears about this one. The autoclave and glycol chiller idea didn't work, maybe a RO machine will.
Brewer3401 said:
I wouldn't bet on that. The water filter gets rid of some things, but it also provides a wonderful breeding ground for bacteria.
-a.
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
johnsma22 said:
Wow -- you really know your water now, I guess! That's cool that you have actually sent away multiple samples to characterize the seasonality of your water quality. I would have thought that your municipality would be doing this already, and would gladly share that info. It's a real shame that they won't.
I guess I am lucky -- here is the level of detail provided by my municipality (city):
http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/BU...ity/annual_water_quality_summary_bearspaw.pdf
http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server...al+Water+Quality+Report/Water+Quality+FAQ.htm
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
pH of your tap water is actually not usually a concern. It is the pH of your mash that is most important, and water composition has a large role to play.grrtt78 said:
Water hardness is generally the big concern. Calcium and magnesium are the two 'big players' when it comes to hardness. Other constituents can be important with respect to the flavour of the beer, but most often a municipal water supply is well within the desired range of these ions.
If I were to suggest one source to learn about the relationship between water chemistry and mash pH, it would be John Palmer's book, How to Brew. Earlier versions of this are online (although not complete) at http://www.howtobrew.com, which you have probably come across before. The chapter to read is Chapter 15 - Understanding the Mash pH. He talks about how to read a water report and interpret the results, and how to work with you water for various types of brews. Excellent reference. You also want to learn to use his water nomograph (downloadable here). Very handy tool.
Cheers!
Thalon
Well-Known Member
FlyGuy said:
That's because the American government down here is only concerned with what scares people, not information that's actually useful. Point goes way deeper than a water quality report though. Better save the rant.
FlyGuy said:
Your water report is exactly my point. They show you a range of potential ion concentration. That does not help a brewer know what level of ion concentration, total hardness or residual alkalinity that the water they want to use to brew with right now has.
Look at the hardness. 133-247 mg/L of CaCO3. The range allows you at a glance to see your hardness as it relates to drinking, bathing, laundry, etc., but tells you next to nothing when it comes to adjusting your water chemistry for brewing.
You can't ever adjust for one ion without adjusting another ion. So you need to know, accurately, what those concentrations are. Let's say you are adding gypsum to add some Calcium. Well, gypsum is Calcium Sulfate, so some sulfate ions will also be added. Your report says the Calcium level is between 36-65 and the sulfate level is between 33-82. You can know how much a given amount of gypsum will increase the ion levels in a given amount of water, but without knowing exactly what your ion concentration was to start with you're just creating a new range.
I'm not saying that adjusting your water chemistry is all important to making good beer. What I am saying is that if you desire to make adjustments, doing so without knowing the exact composition of your water is just guess work.
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
johnsma22 said:
Hey John -- not to contradict your point, but I do want to say that everything is relative. I am not sure where your figures came from, but if one's water report did state that your hardness range was 133-247, then I agree that it is probably too variable to be able to 'dial-in' your water chemistry with things like salt additions. According to my local water report, the hardness of the treated water coming out of my tap varies between 144 - 186 ppm. Further, Ca and Mg levels are within narrow ranges, as well. This is VERY useful information to me, particularly from a qualitative standpoint. I know that, even at the extremes of those ranges, my mash pH is going to be a bit on the high side, which is perfect for the ales I like to brew (amber pale ales, browns, etc.), and I can probably get away with a lighter ale (especially with some pH buffer like 5-2 thrown in) or a porter without any worry. To be relative, that is probably the exact type of information most people are concerned with.
Furthermore, if your municipality can tell you how much your water chemistry varies annually, it will inform you as to whether (1) you can expect your brews to be consistent from batch to batch throughout the year, or (2) whether you will have to track your water chemistry throughout the year and make adjustments (I suspect that most people aren't like you and won't want to have to send off 8 water samples across a year to characterize their water supply, unless they absolutely have to).
If you are really into fine-tuning your mash pH based on your water chemistry, then yes, you need precise and timely information on ion concentrations. I agree with you there that the municipal water report might not be helpful. But from the perspective of homebrewing, I wonder how many people are really that concerned about being so precise with their water adjustments? I suspect the average guy doesn't worry about it at all, or he/she may get their water report and estimate roughly where their mash pH is going to land, and make the decision to use coarse-level adjustments, mash pH buffers/stabilizers, RO water additions, etc. from there. It's all relative.
Anyways, thanks again for the clarification. Apologies for anything I may have misrepresented. Regardless, lots of really good info is emerging from this post!
FlyGuy said:Hey John -- not to contradict your point, but I do want to say that everything is relative. I am not sure where your figures came from, but if one's water report did state that your hardness range was 133-247, then I agree that it is probably too variable to be able to 'dial-in' your water chemistry with things like salt additions. According to my local water report, the hardness of the treated water coming out of my tap varies between 144 - 186 ppm. Further, Ca and Mg levels are within narrow ranges, as well. This is VERY useful information to me, particularly from a qualitative standpoint. I know that, even at the extremes of those ranges, my mash pH is going to be a bit on the high side, which is perfect for the ales I like to brew (amber pale ales, browns, etc.), and I can probably get away with a lighter ale (especially with some pH buffer like 5-2 thrown in) or a porter without any worry. To be relative, that is probably the exact type of information most people are concerned with.
Furthermore, if your municipality can tell you how much your water chemistry varies annually, it will inform you as to whether (1) you can expect your brews to be consistent from batch to batch throughout the year, or (2) whether you will have to track your water chemistry throughout the year and make adjustments (I suspect that most people aren't like you and won't want to have to send off 8 water samples across a year to characterize their water supply, unless they absolutely have to).
If you are really into fine-tuning your mash pH based on your water chemistry, then yes, you need precise and timely information on ion concentrations. I agree with you there that the municipal water report might not be helpful. But from the perspective of homebrewing, I wonder how many people are really that concerned about being so precise with their water adjustments? I suspect the average guy doesn't worry about it at all, or he/she may get their water report and estimate roughly where their mash pH is going to land, and make the decision to use coarse-level adjustments, mash pH buffers/stabilizers, RO water additions, etc. from there. It's all relative.
Anyways, thanks again for the clarification. Apologies for anything I may have misrepresented. Regardless, lots of really good info is emerging from this post!
No apologies necessary. You haven't misrepresented anything. The info about total hardness came from the 2006 Water Quality Report from the website you linked to. I can see now that you are using the 2005 data from the Bearclaw treatment plant. The numbers look better and are tighter in their respective ranges. This is definitely good enough info to be able to decide which types of beers your water is best suited for without making any corrections.
Adjustment of mash pH is one reason someone would consider making changes to their water chemistry, but still another is creating a certain flavor profile for the beer you want to brew. It's just a level I have taken it to at this point, experimenting with different brewing water profiles. I love chemistry anyway, so it just seemed logical in a never ending effort to improve my beers.
I certainly won't be sending off eight water samples a year. That was done at the beginning of this "project" to establish some concrete numbers. The truth is that the numbers from the eight different reports differed only slightly. Our water comes from spring fed lakes and is very soft and almost devoid of any minerals whatsoever. So mineral salt additions are necessary for me to brew anything other than the lightest of beers.
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