astringent flavor cause

my oktoberfest is finally carbed and i went to try a pull off the tap tonight and was confronted with a fairly astringent taste... wasn't too happy about it, but what are ya gonna do except try to figure out what caused it.

i'm thinking that that answer lies in my sparging technique. on the one hand, i want to try and get my grain bed up to ~170* at mashout to maximize efficiency, correct? i'm not one who worries about efficiency, but i don't want to end up below 70%, so i get a little paranoid about it. i batch sparge, but i think on the oktoberfest, i ended up having to add all the sparge water at once to get the grain bed up to 170*, but i think i ended up over 170*, which can cause an astringent taste, right? i guess i'm curious to know what others do and how you end up at a respectable temperature at mashout without ending up with astringency. any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I've heard that is possible, but I've sparged quite a bit hotter (not on purpose!) and never had astringency from it. I now don't usually do a mash out when I batch sparge, only mash out when I fly sparge. When I batch sparge, my first addition might be as high as 194 degrees to get my grain bed up into the high 160s. The second addition is usually around 173, since my grainbed temperature is 167ish by then. I don't get too hung up on if I'm at 163 vs. 170 if I'm batch sparging. I don't think you'll have much efficiency difference in a grainbed temp of 163 or 172. Once the sugars are "fluid", they'll come out. You can even sparge with cool water, according to some writings by Kaiser. (No need to do that, of course- just an interesting blurb).

I HAVE had some astringency in lighter colored beers because of my water chemistry, though. I'm assuming that your Oktoberfest is a medium dark color, and not highly hopped, so I'm not sure what the cause of your astringency could be.

YooperBrew said:

I HAVE had some astringency in lighter colored beers because of my water chemistry, though.

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Bingo, a high mash/sparge pH is the mostly likely cause for the astringency. Android, what is your water profile?

The good news is, the astringency will fade with time. A known method for speeding up the process is to use gelatin finings.

interesting that it will fade. our water in ames is well known for being relatively soft (it comes from an underground aquifer and is fantastic drinking water), but i've not dug too far into our profile yet... so would soft water with a high pH cause this in darker beers?

android said:

interesting that it will fade. our water in ames is well known for being relatively soft (it comes from an underground aquifer and is fantastic drinking water), but i've not dug too far into our profile yet... so would soft water with a high pH cause this in darker beers?

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Based on the Ames Water Report I found, your water is not soft, it's moderately hard. Depending on your part of the county, the carbonate levels range from 100 ppm - 200 ppm and the pH is 7.8 - 9.0, so your RA is moderately high. Certainly high enough to cause astringency during the mash and/or sparge.

Where I live, the pH is 7.9 and the carbonate level is 180ppm. Just to give you an idea, I typically dilute 50/50 with RO water and add a tsp of calcium chloride just to hit an amber ale mash profile (~12 SRM).

I recommend you read your local water report, plug in the numbers to Palmers spreadsheet (online version here), and see how far off you are. The next step is to begin making corrections with RO water and/or salts and monitoring your mash pH (not water pH) with strips or a meter. But, in my experience, you can get close enough to an optimal pH using Palmer's spreadsheet and 5.2 buffer.

thanks lamarguy. i guess i thought we had soft water because it was good drinking water, obviously i was wrong. we do have rural water where i live, outside the city limits, but i think we get a good percentage of our water from the ames supply. i'm going to contact the water district and see if i can get some concrete numbers from them and then use the spreadsheet you linked. thanks again.

just called the water district, they're mailing a full report, i'm looking forward to getting this problem nailed down and taken care of. now that i think back, all the darker beers i've done have had some degree of astringency to them. all the pale beers have come out just fine though...

i highly doubt this is the problem and i'm going to clean them anyway to find out, but can not cleaning tap lines often enough cause any sort of astringent off flavor or is this almost always from tannin extraction from grain husk via the mash pH being off?

As an aside, soft water is not good drinking water. I have both in our house and always drink the hard stuff. The soft stuff tastes gawd awful. It is good for lathering in the shower, washing clothes and dishes, and not leaving residue on your plumbing fixtures, however.

I thought that if you add the 5.2PH stabalizer it will prevent astringincy based on the PH? Should we newer AG brewers be looking up our city Water Profiles, because based on Palmers table we may have to add such things like baking soda and salts. I am always looking for those things that will take my beer to the next level.

Sonnyjim said:

I thought that if you add the 5.2PH stabalizer it will prevent astringincy based on the PH? Should we newer AG brewers be looking up our city Water Profiles, because based on Palmers table we may have to add such things like baking soda and salts. I am always looking for those things that will take my beer to the next level.

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Yes. Extract brewing just requires distilled water whereas AG brewing requires knowing your water source.

well, i guess this explains why my brother's place in north central minnesota needs "salts" added to his water to lower the hardness, thereby making it soft. i don't know why i was under the impression that soft water was "better", stupid misunderstanding on my part. i have been listening to the 4 brew strong episodes dealing with water today and have learned a bit. also been reading ch. 15 in palmer's book regarding water and mash pH. good stuff in there.

android said:

well, i guess this explains why my brother's place in north central minnesota needs "salts" added to his water to lower the hardness, thereby making it soft.

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Adding, for example, calcium chloride doesn't make hard water "soft", but it does lower the Residual Alkalinity thereby making the water good for brewing an amber or light SRM beer. Make sense?

The simple approach that I described earlier goes something like:

1. Enter your local water data in Palmer's spreadsheet.
2. Determine the theoretical SRM of your recipe (e.g., Promash).
3. In Palmer's spreadsheet, adjust the percentage of RO water (adding salts and/or acids as necessary) to get within range of the theoretical SRM.
4. At dough-in, verify the actual mash pH is within range (5.2 - 5.4 at 78F). If not, adjust as necessary.

5.2 buffer will ensure your pH is within range, assuming the RA is within the ballpark to begin with. I've found 1 tsp will provide a sufficient buffer.

so is 5.2 a good general cure all? I'm sure it can't beat treating your specific profile, but is it a good pallpark fix? My water report didn't show the actual components I needed and a call to the water company got me to hear them say the don't measure that stuff. So I'd like to just use 5.2 buffer if it's good enough, but if not I'll send a sample out to get tested. I notice this astringency also in some beers.

lamarguy said:

Adding, for example, calcium chloride doesn't make hard water "soft", but it does lower the Residual Alkalinity thereby making the water good for brewing an amber or light SRM beer. Make sense?

The simple approach that I described earlier goes something like:

1. Enter your local water data in Palmer's spreadsheet.
2. Determine the theoretical SRM of your recipe (e.g., Promash).
3. In Palmer's spreadsheet, adjust the percentage of RO water (adding salts and/or acids as necessary) to get within range of the theoretical SRM.
4. At dough-in, verify the actual mash pH is within range (5.2 - 5.4 at 78F). If not, adjust as necessary.

5.2 buffer will ensure your pH is within range, assuming the RA is within the ballpark to begin with. I've found 1 tsp will provide a sufficient buffer.

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yep, it's starting to make sense to me. the thing i don't get is that the darker beers i've made have been the astringent tasting ones and not the pale beers, which would lead me to believe that we have "lower" RA, which is normally associated with "softer" water, or is that not correct?

or maybe my grain bills on the lighter beers have been small enough that the malts aren't having as large an effect on the mash pH... i dunno... hopefully the water report will clear it up for me.

IrregularPulse said:

so is 5.2 a good general cure all?

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No, but it is cheap mash pH insurance once you're in the ballpark. Your water can have other problems (e.g., high SO4) that are not correctable without dilution and/or salt addition (e.g., Cl to balance the SO4).

ok, I found some more relevant data online here: ames hardness data, all ames water characteristics, but it doesn't list alkalinity. is there any way to calculate this or do i need to contact them for the number?

can anyone verify if this calculation is correct:

total hardness: 141
non-carbonate hardness: 88

alkalinity = (total hardness) - (non-carbonate hardness)

141-88 = 53

obviously i know the math is correct, but is this an acceptable way of calculating alkalinity?

well, i found out that this is the correct formula if this is what is provided on your water report by calling the water dept. they confirmed that the average alkalinity for their recent samples is 51.

i also found out that our rural water district changed water sources and we are now getting all our water from boone (next town over). i've got a call in to the district to get the data i need from that water analysis.

android said:

i also found out that our rural water district changed water sources and we are now getting all our water from boone (next town over). i've got a call in to the district to get the data i need from that water analysis.

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And the search continues...If unsure, you can always use 100% RO water and add salts to build your profile. Or, pay for a water analysis.

lamarguy said:

And the search continues...If unsure, you can always use 100% RO water and add salts to build your profile. Or, pay for a water analysis.

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yeah, no kidding. the gal at the water district seemed pretty sure she could get the data i needed. i just read off to her exactly what i needed and she's supposed to call me back with what she can find... we'll see.

still waiting for the damn water report, but on a positive note, the oktoberfest has become very drinkable over the last 1.5 weeks.

finally got someone from the Boone water plant to send me some data, it's similar to ames but of course they don't measure sulfite or chloride, so i guess i'll estimate based on ames water or get a different analysis. on a good note, i found out tonight that our water is perfect for an IPA!

android said:

on a good note, i found out tonight that our water is perfect for an IPA!

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Post your numbers?

absolutely, the IPA i brewed is in the recipe section now in case you're interested in seeing what's in it.

pH: 9.4 (very close to Ames)
Alkalinity: 55-60 (very close to Ames)
Calcium: 110 ppm (about 40 ppm lower than Ames)
Magnesium: 40 ppm (about 30 ppm higher than Ames)
Sodium: 13 ppm (about 10 ppm less than Ames)

No Chloride or Sulfate data, but for now I will assume they are at least in the same ballpark as Ames water, which is:

Chloride: 36 ppm
Sulfate: ~ 90 ppm

Plugged into the spreadsheet you posted gives me "Very Bitter" as the best style for my water without any corrections.

android said:

pH: 9.4 (very close to Ames)
Alkalinity: 55-60 (very close to Ames)
Calcium: 110 ppm (about 40 ppm lower than Ames)
Magnesium: 40 ppm (about 30 ppm higher than Ames)
Sodium: 13 ppm (about 10 ppm less than Ames)

No Chloride or Sulfate data, but for now I will assume they are at least in the same ballpark as Ames water, which is:

Chloride: 36 ppm
Sulfate: ~ 90 ppm

Plugged into the spreadsheet you posted gives me "Very Bitter" as the best style for my water without any corrections.

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Yup, very bitter it is!

Two things that may be causing you problems are the high sulfate and magnesium levels. The use of water high in sulfates, iron, or copper can lead to astringency. Magnesium in amounts greater than 50 ppm tend to give a sour-bitter taste to the beer. You're pretty close to 50 ppm.

right on, thanks for all your help. i think for my non IPAs, i'll be cutting it in half with RO and adding stuff back in to match styles. is the general method to add some to the mash and some to the boil kettle (depending on volumes) but none to the actual HLT water?

android said:

is the general method to add some to the mash and some to the boil kettle (depending on volumes) but none to the actual HLT water?

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Unless you're adding chalk, all salts and RO water can be mixed directly in your HLT. Add chalk to your mash, shortly after dough-in, because the acidic environment helps adsorb it more readily.

Personally, I recommend you dilute your tap water (for all recipes) to the point the mg <= 25ppm. Try it both ways and see if you notice a difference in taste.

I also have the astringent taste that makes the hops harsher, it fades after month or so in the keg in some beers, and in other beers may hang around forever. IPAs' APA's and cream ales dont seem affected, made a dunkel that had it for a few weeks then dissapeared. I had assumed it was my water as it is prominant in lighter beers, so i sent out for the water check and i dont see any problem with my water, as it is close to perfect for lighter beers. Anyone see any problem with these numbers?
PH-9.2 Sodium-94 Potassium <1 Calcium <1 Mag. <1 Hardness <1 Nitrate-.1 Sulfate-4 Chloride-3 Carbonate-45 Bicarbonate-154 TAlkalinity-201 fluoride-.32 iron-.01

carloski44 said:

Anyone see any problem with these numbers?
PH-9.2
Sodium-94
Potassium <1
Calcium <1
Mag. <1
Hardness <1
Nitrate-.1
Sulfate-4
Chloride-3
Carbonate-45
Bicarbonate-154

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Plug those numbers into Palmers spreadsheet and see what you get in terms in SRM and malty/bitter.

lamarguy said:

Yup, very bitter it is!

Two things that may be causing you problems are the high sulfate and magnesium levels. The use of water high in sulfates, iron, or copper can lead to astringency.

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I think your link is the last bump I needed to pin point the off flavors I'd been getting in some Pale Ales. I need to get a water test done. Thanks for the info. This was a very helpful thread to me as well.