All You Ever Wanted to Know About Oxygenation

That's what I do as well.... no issues with clogging?

butterpants said:

That's what I do as well.... no issues with clogging?

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none, i've had this wand for 3 years and it's never clogged on me. hell, i've even touched it like they say you're not supposed to :rockin:

eastoak said:

none, i've had this wand for 3 years and it's never clogged on me. hell, i've even touched it like they say you're not supposed to :rockin:

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Hott.... did it touch you back??

eastoak said:

that's very generous of you to refer to that little black knob as a regulator it turns the gas on or off, no regulation involved. i'll look in my garage to see if i still have mine, i may have thrown it away, if i find it i'll send you a pm.

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Well, its a start anyway. Not quite ready for the full blown setup.

For people using the williams system with the welding oxygen tanks, how far do you open the regulator? I just used mine for the first time, but I think I didn't give it enough oxygen.

I turned it up till I could see bubbles coming up to the surface, then turned it down just far enough so I couldn't bubbles coming up but it was still on, and stirred it around the bottom of the carboy for one minute.

I used a recipe I found on here many people have done, and my fermentation hasn't been nearly as vigorous as a lot of other people have said theirs has been.

For that bernzomatic deal, use this as a guide:



Not sure if they had it all the way open or throttled some.

dstar26t said:

For that bernzomatic deal, use this as a guide:

...

Not sure if they had it all the way open or throttled some.

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I guess my question then is whether it is throttled or not. If you open it fully it creates quite a bit of oxygen flow, a lot of it escapes as bubbles to the surface.

Before I scored my bigger tank and regulator I would crank it wide open and then back off until I could barely hear the bubbles.

I ferment in a 1/2 half barrel sanke so visual is not a real option.

Now I set the bubble rate it in my blow off bucket, ( sanitizer), then transfer to fermenter. That should work on the, red tank, system too just never thought of it then.

pb

Fett said:

I guess my question then is whether it is throttled or not. If you open it fully it creates quite a bit of oxygen flow, a lot of it escapes as bubbles to the surface.

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the O2 still makes it into solution in spite of the portion you see bubbling away. the williams O2 system with the disposable tanks does not have a real regulator, it's basically on or off.

eastoak said:

the O2 still makes it into solution in spite of the portion you see bubbling away. the williams O2 system with the disposable tanks does not have a real regulator, it's basically on or off.

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But with respect to a true regulator that controls pressure, you can only control volume with a red tank setup.

A true regulator regulates the pressure that is leaving the tank. Best way.

But if you control volume dispensed,... well not as desirable, but,...still on the effective side. To a point.

Point I'm trying to make: Red tank setups are not the best,... but they are better than some other setups.

I used red tanks for several brews, then scored my current setup on the cheap. $50 med gas, big cylinder, full with regulator. 2000psi on gauge.

Would I go back? Yes,... it is my backup.

pb

I have an oxygen tank with welding regulator. Anybody have an idea where to set the outlet pressure for a 1 LPM flow rate? I've been adjusting it to just get bubbles and running for about a minute, but would like to be a bit more scientific about it.

Albionwood said:

I have an oxygen tank with welding regulator. Anybody have an idea where to set the outlet pressure for a 1 LPM flow rate? I've been adjusting it to just get bubbles and running for about a minute, but would like to be a bit more scientific about it.

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i believe you have to get a flow meter to do that.

barleyfreak said:

I've been using a 2 micron stone, a medical regulator set at 3 LPM for 30-60 seconds, depending on type, gravity, etc. According to your formula,

time = (0.00265 * ppm * volume) / flowrate

if I want 10ppm, for 5 gallons, at 3 LPM i'd flow for .044 minutes, or 2.65 seconds. That can't be right.

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3 LPM is a pretty high flow rate. If you could get all the oxygen to dissolve in the beer, you would hit the target PPM. However, it would mostly bubble all to the surface for just a 5 gallon volume. You want a slower rate.

plumber_bob said:

But with respect to a true regulator that controls pressure, you can only control volume with a red tank setup.

A true regulator regulates the pressure that is leaving the tank. Best way.

But if you control volume dispensed,... well not as desirable, but,...still on the effective side. To a point.

Point I'm trying to make: Red tank setups are not the best,... but they are better than some other setups.

I used red tanks for several brews, then scored my current setup on the cheap. $50 med gas, big cylinder, full with regulator. 2000psi on gauge.

Would I go back? Yes,... it is my backup.

pb

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I'm still a pretty new brewer, so I wanted to start small. I might upgrade to a full sized tank and regulator down the line, but for now I want to try and make this work, and try to be reasonably scientific about it.

dstar26t said:

When my DO meter worked, this is the data I collected.

This chart is for 5.25-5.5 gal batches in a 6.5 gallon carboy oxygenated with a .5 micron stone. They are listed chronologically, not by OG or temp or time so you have to study the data for a few minutes. There are too many dependents to graph it out.

The measurements shown on that table were the only ones I got from that meter before it wouldn't calibrate anymore. I was pretty disappointed with it. It is the older Milwaukee model that the MW600 replaced.

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I finally got a chance to crunch this data. There are a lot of variables. Some you can normalize for and some you can probably ignore. If you normalize for liter of oxygen input (i.e. LPM * time) per gallon of wort and compare to the measured ppm, there's some correlation. I've included a graph below with a linear curve fit. There was one outlier with a 20 ppm that I excluded. That seemed too high and maybe was an erroneous reading. By looking at each data point, there didn't seem to be a strong correlation to rest time or wort temperature. I'm not sure how rest time would matter a lot. However, there will be a correlation to temperature due to solubility.

Temperature and SG both affect how much oxygen dissolves. Also how are you adding the oxygen? Are you dropping it into the fermentor or are you stirring?

I don't think you can make a universal formula for oxygenation. In my opinion you should just try to be as consistent as possible and pay attention to how your yeast respond.

orangehero said:

Temperature and SG both affect how much oxygen dissolves. Also how are you adding the oxygen? Are you dropping it into the fermentor or are you stirring? I don't think you can make a universal formula for oxygenation. In my opinion you should just try to be as consistent as possible and pay attention to how your yeast respond.

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My overall goal is to have an "in the ballpark" to slightly generous amount of oxygen. I use an in line oxygen stone which may not be as efficient as oxygenating in the fermenter. I suspect the pumping action will cause some oxygen to bubble out.

After reading the whole thread I still have a question about oxygenation vs pitch rate. I have the vague understanding that the oxygen is used by the yeast in a growth phase. So if more yeast is added (i.e., if I use a larger starter) then do I still need to oxygenate?

Simply, the yeast produce flavors when they grow. You'll make beer but it won't be the same. Variations in pitch rate (and oxygenation) will change the profile of the final beer.

Orangehero is right about flavor especially for styles whose flavor is dominated by yeast character like wheat beers and some Belgian styles. I like higher gravity beers and struggled for a long time to get enough attenuation resulting in slightly sweet beers (or worse yet letting other critters take hold) that just didn't come out well. For me, becoming knowledgable about pitching rate and oxygenation made a world of difference for the better. I'm starting to find as I continue to ramp up the pitching rate and oxygenation that the flavor is changing so I'm starting to dial it back. I wouldn't say flavor is bad, it's just different. It depends what you want. In general, I'm getting higher attenuation (close to 80%) than the yeast is rated for (typically 75%). This is making the beer drier (more alcohol, less residual sugar) and a loss of some yeast flavor like clove and banana in Hefeweizens.

I suspect most homebrewers underpitch which makes their results hit or miss. I'd recommend calculating your needed pricing rate and oxygenation, ramping it up in order to get better consistency, and then dialing back a little if you go too far.

Thanks for this thread. Great information about Oxygen tanks.

The topic of oxygen and pitch rates is being talked about on another forum and I have come to the conclusion that this is an important strategic step for planning how your beers turn out.

For my next hefeweizen I am going to try making a 2L starter (with plenty of O2) along with barely adding any oxygen before pitching for the 5-gal batch. I would like to emphasize esters with this style and am wondering if this method might make a difference - pitching a lot of yeast in a low O2 environment.

This seems safer than underpitching.

I wonder if, when using a dissolved oxygen meter, if there is any importance on how long to wait between aeration and measurement? I am wondering specifically, if taking a reading immediately after removing the oxygen wand is going to be spuriously high. What are the commercial brewers doing, and do they measure the oxygen levels?

TD

The big guys inject and measure inline. It's very expensive gear, so I would guess small breweries just measure time and/or flowrate and then adjust depending on fermentation performace. That's the approach I go by at least.

How about the not so big guys?

It's not the time between oxygenation and measurement that's important. It's the time between measuring your target DO and pitching that you need to minimize. Oxygen comes out of solution quickly, you want your yeast to get as much of what you measured as possible for consistency.

I didn't see anywhere in the thread where the data from White's Yeast book for aeration using o2 is reported. On page 79 from the book, it is reported that the author's measurements with 5.3g of 1.077 wort using .5 micron stone with a 1 LPM flow rate yielded 9.2 ppm for 60 seconds and 14.02 ppm for 120 seconds. Personally, I have followed these guidelines. The formula from the OP seems to be significantly different from this book's recommendation.

jaw94087 said:

I didn't see anywhere in the thread where the data from White's Yeast book for aeration using o2 is reported. On page 79 from the book, it is reported that the author's measurements with 5.3g of 1.077 wort using .5 micron stone with a 1 LPM flow rate yielded 9.2 ppm for 60 seconds and 14.02 ppm for 120 seconds. Personally, I have followed these guidelines. The formula from the OP seems to be significantly different from this book's recommendation.

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dstar26t posted some measured data which I did a new curve fit to in a previous post:

ppm = (8.4905 * LPM * minutes aeration time) / gallons wort + 7.9254

The curve fit is so-so and it doesn't have a zero intercept (i.e. you get PPM oxygen with no oxygenation). That said, it does an okay job at matching the data from White and Zainasheff. Where they predict 9.2 ppm, this equation predicts 9.5 and where they predict 14.0 ppm, this equation predicts 11.1. If you include this data, the equation changes slightly to:

ppm = (8.4294 * LPM * minutes aeration time) / gallons wort + 8.1019

I'll update the original post to this. It's not perfect as it ignores factors such as wort temperature, OG, saturation, etc. but it gives you a rough number to shoot for.

I have the Williams brewing wand and 'regulator' system for the bernzomatic tanks. Can someone with a real regulator and the same 2 micron air stone give some general observations for different flow rates? I've always turned it on just enough to get a decent stream of bubbles cresting the surface but the regulator can go much higher. What does 1 lpm or 3 lpm look like?

I've always aerated for 30 seconds as I recall reading somewhere that this was more than enough time for adequate aeration. I've never liked that answer and always wanted a DO meter to do exactly what you are doing. I applaud your effort OP.

billl said:

Alternatively.... for thrifty people.

Shaking or an aquarium pump provides basically perfect aeration for everything other than big beers. 8ppm. It actually is a quite controlled process since you saturate at 8ppm.

An initial aeration followed again in 8 hours provides the perfect levels for most big beers. 8ppm+8ppm = 16ppm

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So, if I want to go this route, what "size" of aquarium pump are you using and how long do youe aerate to get 8 ppm??

I forget if it was mentioned earlier (I remember seeing a pic someone posted), but what flow meter have you guys found to be useful to work with your airstone O2 systems? I received a fermentap O2 system with a 0.5 micron stone for Xmas, and just picked up an O2 bottle from HD. So I can just adjust flow and time it, like some have said they do, but I too would rather see a flow value and be able to replicate that for a certain amount of time each batch.

So what model is the best for is kind of set up (something in-line with barbs attachments for the tubing, I assume?). Is it the pediatric models that to from 0-4 lpm? That seems to be the best for the low flow rates I see recommended. Thanks for any advice!

johnpcook1 said:

So, if I want to go this route, what "size" of aquarium pump are you using and how long do youe aerate to get 8 ppm??

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An aquarium pump will take about 5 minutes. Here's a comparison of methods such as shaking, oxygen, and pumps done by Wyeast: http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm

FatsSchindee said:

I forget if it was mentioned earlier (I remember seeing a pic someone posted), but what flow meter have you guys found to be useful to work with your airstone O2 systems? I received a fermentap O2 system with a 0.5 micron stone for Xmas, and just picked up an O2 bottle from HD. So I can just adjust flow and time it, like some have said they do, but I too would rather see a flow value and be able to replicate that for a certain amount of time each batch.

So what model is the best for is kind of set up (something in-line with barbs attachments for the tubing, I assume?). Is it the pediatric models that to from 0-4 lpm? That seems to be the best for the low flow rates I see recommended. Thanks for any advice!

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I initially set out to find an in-line flow meter, but they're hard to find and pricey; especially at low flow rates. I ended up buying a regulator that controls flow rate for only $48. That's probably not good advice since you just got your fermentap system.

drunkenmonk said:

I initially set out to find an in-line flow meter, but they're hard to find and pricey; especially at low flow rates. I ended up buying a regulator that controls flow rate for only $48. That's probably not good advice since you just got your fermentap system.

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Yeah, I know it will cost more in the long run buying the benzamatic o2 canisters, but SWMBO already thinks my brewing equipment takes up too much room in our house, so decided not to go with the big old o2 cylinder for now...

renthispace said:

I have the Williams brewing wand and 'regulator' system for the bernzomatic tanks. Can someone with a real regulator and the same 2 micron air stone give some general observations for different flow rates? I've always turned it on just enough to get a decent stream of bubbles cresting the surface but the regulator can go much higher. What does 1 lpm or 3 lpm look like?

I've always aerated for 30 seconds as I recall reading somewhere that this was more than enough time for adequate aeration. I've never liked that answer and always wanted a DO meter to do exactly what you are doing. I applaud your effort OP.

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Anyone want to make a YouTube video?

How much are the bottles of O2 at a hardware store typically? Trying to decide whether investing in a larger setup is worthwhile as a long term investment ...

maltoftheearth said:

How much are the bottles of O2 at a hardware store typically? Trying to decide whether investing in a larger setup is worthwhile as a long term investment ...

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those cylinders were somewhere between $15-20 around here if i remember correctly. my O2 cylinder and regulator were around $120-130 at harbor freight a couple of yrs ago and i've yet to refill the cylinder (it's the 20 cubic foot size)

Benzomatic O2 cyls are 9$ here. I've been using the same one for 13 batches.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Home Brew mobile app

Anyone know about disolved oxygen test kits vs meters? There are a lot of different test kits that are much cheaper than the electronic meters. Obviously the question is how accurate are they?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_0_9?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=dissolved%20oxygen%20test%20kit&sprefix=disolved+%2Caps%2C472&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Adissolved%20oxygen%20test%20kit

I think it would be beneficial to always know the DO as there will always be variables at work that will effect a given flow rate and time. I would like to find that 'average feel' of time vs flow that will always leave me slightly over oxygenated, and then never really test again (testing for pH and gravity is enough for me on a normal basis). My previous notion of 30 seconds is long enough just doesn't work for me anymore.

Are any of the original 2013 posters to this subject still monitoring?

I am curious if anyone can share the data that dstar26t posted here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...to-know-about-oxygenation.414616/post-5465938
The first post of the thread I believe is up to date with the following formula:
time = 0.113 * (volume / flow rate) * (ppm - 8.1019)

Then in post All You Ever Wanted to Know About Oxygenation, this equation is provided:
ppm = (8.4905 * LPM * minutes aeration time) / gallons wort + 7.9254

If I solve that equation for time I get:
(minutes aeration time) = ((ppm-7.9254)*(gallons wort))/(8.4905*LPM)

If I assume the follow inputs:
LPM (aka flow rate) = 0.5
Gallons of wort (aka volume) = 6
PPM = 14

I get the following:
time = 0.113 * (volume / flow rate) * (ppm - 8.1019) = 0.113*(6/0.5)*(14-8.1019) = 8 minutes
OR
time (aka minutes aeration time) = ((14-7.9254*6))/(8.4905*0.5) = 8.6 minutes

I just performed a test using the equation:
Time = 0.113*(volume*LPM)*(ppm-8.1019)
which using the inputs above gives:
Time = 0.113*(6*0.5)*(14-8.1019) = 2.0 minutes

Using a Dissolved Oxygen meter I found dosing for ~2 minutes yielded ~12ppm of additional O2 with the parameters listed above. This leads me to wonder how another formula based on test data could recommend 4 times the duration of O2.

Thank you!

drunkenmonk said:

dstar26t posted some measured data which I did a new curve fit to in a previous post:

ppm = (8.4905 * LPM * minutes aeration time) / gallons wort + 7.9254

The curve fit is so-so and it doesn't have a zero intercept (i.e. you get PPM oxygen with no oxygenation). That said, it does an okay job at matching the data from White and Zainasheff. Where they predict 9.2 ppm, this equation predicts 9.5 and where they predict 14.0 ppm, this equation predicts 11.1. If you include this data, the equation changes slightly to:

ppm = (8.4294 * LPM * minutes aeration time) / gallons wort + 8.1019

I'll update the original post to this. It's not perfect as it ignores factors such as wort temperature, OG, saturation, etc. but it gives you a rough number to shoot for.

Click to expand...

RodimusPrime98 said:

Using a Dissolved Oxygen meter I found dosing for ~2 minutes yielded ~12ppm of additional O2 with the parameters listed above. This leads me to wonder how another formula based on test data could recommend 4 times the duration of O2.

Click to expand...

This just shows that there are more variables involved than those accounted for in the formula (i.e. flow rate, volume and time). In other words the formula is useless.