Electric 10bbl

Howdy everyone!

I had a hypothetical come up talking with my brewing friends.

We brew a few things that all require 100F for 48 hours, then 65F for 3-4 weeks.

We can either separate these into 2 units, (unit A with a pressure relief valve when it becomes full dropping into anaerobic 50F temporary holding tank until it reaches 10bbl capacity at which point yeast is added).

The question is: could one piece of equipment maintain these temperatures, which piece would do it most economically, or would you prefer to split it into multiple pieces for economy's sake (if so what types of pieces)?

Thanks in advance!

you may want to go to probrewer, not many of us here "homebrew" in 10bbl volumes so any suggestions might have scaling issues.

I feel like the probrewing options are crazily inefficient. 10bbl fermenter jacketed will be around $8,000. Alternatively you can buy a 300 gallon food safe inductor tank for $700.

Seems like if you can find a way to heat one of them, and cool one of them it'd be massively cheaper than the industrial/professional alternative.

Looked at probrew, tons use plastic conicals. Most recommend immersion chiller 50 ft stainless worm. Some people set up cold rooms with insulation around the fermenter and ac window unit (probably what I'll do).

I think I'll mount it on wheels, still not sure how to heat it.

chonas said:

I feel like the probrewing options are crazily inefficient. 10bbl fermenter jacketed will be around $8,000. Alternatively you can buy a 300 gallon food safe inductor tank for $700.

Seems like if you can find a way to heat one of them, and cool one of them it'd be massively cheaper than the industrial/professional alternative.

Click to expand...

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble here, and I truly hope you can prove me wrong and be successful at whatever you're doing. But there simply isn't a GOOD and cheap way to do these things. If there were, why would companies like Stone, Sierra Nevada, etc.. spend MILLIONS to do the same thing in their facilities?

"Big-boy-equipment" may seem overly expensive and inefficient, but its what you need to consistently do the job right. If you're just "homebrewing" on a 10bbl scale, knock yourself out, but if you're going through the expenses of opening a 10bbl brewery/brewpub, do it right, or you'll most likely join the statistics of all the other great brewers with ****ty breweries that can't make good beer largely due to their equipment.

I've seen a couple of breweries start with those inductor tanks and their beer has been fantastic. For sure, they've moved on to bigger and better things now, but if you can find a way to control temps then I'm sure those plastic tanks are good enough for getting started. I think the bigger issue is that plastic is much more fragile than stainless so over time you're going to better off with the 'big boy' equipment.

Why 10BBL?

jmark said:

I've seen a couple of breweries start with those inductor tanks and their beer has been fantastic. For sure, they've moved on to bigger and better things now, but if you can find a way to control temps then I'm sure those plastic tanks are good enough for getting started. I think the bigger issue is that plastic is much more fragile than stainless so over time you're going to better off with the 'big boy' equipment.

Click to expand...

Don't forget, you have to clean that stuff. This is why breweries move on to "big boy equipment." Their product starts to suffer tremendously. Plastic is MUCH less forgiving than stainless in regards to cleanliness and sanitation.

jrodmfish said:

Why 10BBL?

Click to expand...

Seemed like a good starting point for a nano. If successful, you can easily double the setup. The floorspace taken by 4 5bbl is much more than that taken by 2 10bbl, especially if you need a heater and cooler for each brew.

ruger988 said:

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble here, and I truly hope you can prove me wrong and be successful at whatever you're doing. But there simply isn't a GOOD and cheap way to do these things. If there were, why would companies like Stone, Sierra Nevada, etc.. spend MILLIONS to do the same thing in their facilities?

"Big-boy-equipment" may seem overly expensive and inefficient, but its what you need to consistently do the job right. If you're just "homebrewing" on a 10bbl scale, knock yourself out, but if you're going through the expenses of opening a 10bbl brewery/brewpub, do it right, or you'll most likely join the statistics of all the other great brewers with ****ty breweries that can't make good beer largely due to their equipment.

Click to expand...

This really isnt all that accurate from what Ive seen, I have visited most of the local brewpubs and nanos in my area and I see a lot on inexpensive work arounds and alternatives like plastic fermenters and foamboard cold rooms with ac units (first time I saw those was at community beer works and now they are opening their third location) I agree that stainless is the way to go on a professional level once your funds support it but the alternatives may work just as well to produce good beer, They might have other tradeoffs like higher energy consumption or more care in cleaning that in the long run make then less than idea. For someone starting out though they are certainly an ok choice. Especially for folks wising to build their business with the profits and not bank loans and debt. Dispite what equipment seller would want to to believe you dont need fancy stainless and TC fittings to make good beer... There are folks here who make amazing beer with an old pot and a stove. It may take more work but it can certainly be done.
Many brewing equipment manufacturers will tell you you need at least a 5 bbl system to be successful at all and most of us know that is not necessarily true either.

I am in a similar boat and have taked to folks about plastic fermenters because ive heard the cost effect stainless once like bubbas barrels sel can have tradeoffs like sealing and leaking issues.
we already have the stainless 7bbl kettles (if you want to call them that) still looking for the right building.

I think foamboard ac unit cold room is what I was going to use (only need 65F). For heat, I've seen people say immersion coils and water bath swamp coolers. How would you fit one of those around a conical?

That cold room regulated to 65 degrees isn't going to keep a 10 bbl fermenter at 65 degrees. The exothermic reaction of 10 bbl of beer of an ordinary gravity will generate roughly 42,000 BTU over about 70 hours, so you're looking at about 600 BTU an hour.

Problem with an air cooled setup and large volumes fermenting is that air doesn't carry heat very well, and the relatively solid mass of the fermenter isn't ideal for heat transfer due to lack of surface area in relation to the volume. Add to that that the plastic will insulate it a bit and you're looking at a fermentaion that could be 10-20 degrees warmer than ambient, if not higher.

You may have more luck with the probe measuring fermenter interior temps, but you'll still have inefficient heat transfer to fight with. That, and using an air conditioner to push air far colder than it's rated for.

Combo of AC and immersion coil? Then use the coil for warm water when doing it warm? If I'm using immersion for both, I could keep the insulated chamber, and same conical for both and "cold crash" by kicking on the AC and adding some ice.

Problem solved. Next issue: are there any giant facsimiles of ice cream makers? I'm doing a super thick mash in the heat part that needs to get agitated every 12 hours or so. Though not necessary, would be helpful.

chonas said:

Combo of AC and immersion coil? Then use the coil for warm water when doing it warm? If I'm using immersion for both, I could keep the insulated chamber, and same conical for both and "cold crash" by kicking on the AC and adding some ice.

Problem solved. Next issue: are there any giant facsimiles of ice cream makers? I'm doing a super thick mash in the heat part that needs to get agitated every 12 hours or so. Though not necessary, would be helpful.

Click to expand...

Corn?

Beernip said:

Corn?

Click to expand...

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.. also explains the drive to do it so cheaply.

Rice. Making sake, process is
1. Cook rice.
2. Cool rice to 96F and mix with mold.
3. Maintain 96F while mold converts starch to glucose.
4. Convert glucose to alcohol with yeast (from 50F to 70F for best results).

No one in the winemaking section of the forum has been doing it on a large scale (or with electrics), so I tried using brewing terminology.

Honestly, if done with hops, it meets the legal definition of beer.

Rice mash is really thick and full of starch. The mass will not evenly (or quickly) distribute the heat without it being stirred up. The coil size for an immersion coil would be huge and require a massive effort to clean. Plus you'll need to make it out of stainless and not copper because of the alcohol that will be present. Honestly I think at that size then steam heating would be the best option.

How about water bath?

How would you steam heat it? Seems like heat dispersion through such thick substrate would be difficult w/o constant application (hence water bath, like sous vide)?