well the electrician just left and the news wasn't great

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GJOCONNELL

GJOCONNELL

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he said the contractor did a number of things incorrectly during our house remodel.

Anyway he recommends a new panel ($1,200 installed and fixing all the issues).

To get a 50 amp service to the back of the house would be $300 with cover and all that jazz.

So looking at $1,500 all in. He basically said I need to get the wiring issues fixed (wrong breakers for the panel, one breaker incorrectly wired, explorer why 50 amp breakers are being used when I have a gas range even though it is labeled cook top).

To get the wire to the shed would be another $200 because of the trenching but he said I could do it and save that money his trencher guy charges $30 a foot because his usual guys hate to trench so he outsources it.

Have to discuss the above with the wife but my guess is for now we will be fixing the panel to get it up to code and then down the line revisiting going all electric.....I hadn't broached the topic of the electric controller going to be another $800 or so for a 50 amp capable panel and I honestly don't have the kettles to utilize that setup.

I will probably just get a controller to use my existing 15 amp service and make it work with my gas setup and figure out how to get the RIMS (120v) dialed in.
 
Did he specifically say what was wrong with the existing service panel?
Unless its a panel with some kind of obsolete breakers you can't get anymore, why would it have to be changed?
And how can a breaker be wired incorrectly? Did he show you?
When the house was built, the kitchen may have been wired for an electric range, that's why the 50 amp service is there. The gas range still needs a 120V outlet to run it, so why couldn't you use the 50 amp breaker to run a line to your brewing location and wire the stove outlet to a regular breaker?
If he didn't give you a real good reason to replace the panel, I'd call him back and ask him and get a few more bids as well.
Ask specific questions like: How much for the labor vs/any items to be purchased? Does the bid include any permits and inspections that are required? How long will the job take?
Is he asking for any money up front? (don't hire anyone who asks for that)
From here it looks like your electrician is looking to make $1,000 for less than a day's work, but to be fair, I really don't know what he included or didn't include.
Sorry if I sound skeptical, but I've been screwed by contractors before and have learned my lesson to not trust anything they say unless it can be verified.
 
I had a situation one time where an electrician was telling me my panel was wrong and out of code. However, my house was built to code therefore the wiring met code requirements (grandfathered). Is telling you it needs to be brought up to code, or did he specifically say things were wired incorrectly (didn't meet code) during the remodel? Maybe you can contact the contractor to get his thoughts? I would get a second and third opinion if you can, but wouldn't run with the cheapest bid either. Safety is the main concern.
 
I would get a second opinion as others said. Not only for the code "violations" but for price.

More than a few people told me my breakers were wrong, and i just went online and googled and low and behold the company who made the breaker box was bought out by another company who stuck their logo on the breakers, they are the same damn thing the electrician was just an idiot.

Also the cost was very different, while what i paid $800 may seem like a lot he did have to run conduit across my entire garage to get the outlet where i wanted it and do some other work on the panel, others quoted me at $1500.
 
Re-read the original post.

What is wrong with the current panel, post up a pic. if it's at least a panel within the last 30 years or so, it's up to date.

and what issues, i mean, 1500 is a lot to do nothing that's really needed.

post up a pic if you are not sure.
 
Deleted: Post I was replying to was edited. And then this one was double posted.
 
GJOCONNELL said:
one breaker incorrectly wired, explorer why 50 amp breakers are being used when I have a gas range even though it is labeled cook top).
Click to expand...

As you are discovering you don't easily pull a cable from panel to kitchen once construction is complete. I was puzzled on returning last spring to my project up north which was completed over the winter to find a mystery 50A breaker in one of my panels. The toner quickly confirmed its other end was behind my nice new gas range. Do I know that I will always have a gas range in that kitchen? No, guess I don't so rather than curse the guy I was actually pleased that he did this.
 
Yep, spending $1200 for no real change is very questionable. Sure there can be an irregularity in the panel, but does it make it unsafe? Out of "code?" Wasn't your electrical inspected and approved when your new panel was installed during the remodel a few years ago?

Your "electric range" breaker is exactly the surplus breaker I was referring to in my earlier post. You can use that space for a ($$) GFCI breaker to your brewing space or better yet, wire it directly to a ($75) Spa panel (which has the needed GFCI built-in) to service your brewing panel.
 
madscientist451 said:
Did he specifically say what was wrong with the existing service panel?
Unless its a panel with some kind of obsolete breakers you can't get anymore, why would it have to be changed?
And how can a breaker be wired incorrectly? Did he show you?
When the house was built, the kitchen may have been wired for an electric range, that's why the 50 amp service is there. The gas range still needs a 120V outlet to run it, so why couldn't you use the 50 amp breaker to run a line to your brewing location and wire the stove outlet to a regular breaker?
If he didn't give you a real good reason to replace the panel, I'd call him back and ask him and get a few more bids as well.
Ask specific questions like: How much for the labor vs/any items to be purchased? Does the bid include any permits and inspections that are required? How long will the job take?
Is he asking for any money up front? (don't hire anyone who asks for that)
From here it looks like your electrician is looking to make $1,000 for less than a day's work, but to be fair, I really don't know what he included or didn't include.
Sorry if I sound skeptical, but I've been screwed by contractors before and have learned my lesson to not trust anything they say unless it can be verified.
Click to expand...

He noted a couple things:

1. Incorrect breaker was used for the panel (i.e. it didn't fit and wasn't meant for the panel)
2. The panel was not labeled correctly (he did some spot testing)
3. he made mention aluminum was being used for either the 50 and/or 30 amp which wasn't allowed.
4. He wanted to replace the panel going from a 20 spot to a 30 spot which included running a 50 amp homerun to the garage (to go under the house to the back was $300)
5. The price didn't include permitting which he recommended ($300 for the permit and $300 for the electrician to be on site for the inspection so $600 total)

He is going to send over a detailed estimate later today (he was the owner of the company).

He didn't ask for any money up front. He said panel replacement would take 3 hrs and the power would be off during that time and they would need to sort out where the 50 amp was going as well as the 30 amp (he suspects they used the 50 amp for the gas range ignition) and the other 30 amp for extra electrical in the kitchen (we went from electric range to gas and moved the hood (I think the hood required a run by itself due to power draw)).

The electrician didn't know how it passed inspection because he noted several issues as mentioned above I might be leaving some of the stuff he mentioned out but that is what I recall.

He was wondering why they didn't replace the panel during the remodel with more room instead of maxing it out and appearing to cut corners.
 
IslandLizard said:
Yep, spending $1200 for no real change is very questionable. Sure there can be an irregularity in the panel, but does it make it unsafe? Out of "code?" Wasn't your electrical inspected and approved when your new panel was installed during the remodel a few years ago?

Your "electric range" breaker is exactly the surplus breaker I was referring to in my earlier post. You can use that space for a ($$) GFCI breaker to your brewing space or better yet, wire it directly to a ($75) Spa panel (which has the needed GFCI built-in) to service your brewing panel.
Click to expand...

He didn't say out of code he just said wouldn't pass inspection....my bad that I mixed up the terms.
 
Electricians, or any contractor for that matter, will tend to over exaggerate 'problems' to increase their potential business. I'd get at least 1 to 2 more opinions and make sure not to mention to any of the other guys what the other ones said. In the end decide what really needs to be done and have them all requote just that work.

They also tend to have a lot of opinions on how things should be done, and will also have the view that anyone other than them doesn't know what they are doing and did it wrong.
 
So with the $600 for a permit its about $2100? Sounds like he was thorough, but I'd get a few more bids and see where it lands.
I used Aluminum wire when putting in a new service to my business, (not inside a house) and it was approved and worked fine. But different states may require copper in a residence. Its better to get it done right and not have to worry about it.
 
Crazy. Wonder how it passed initial inspection unless the inspector "trusts" the electrical contractor.

Get multiple quotes and you will be that much more informed.

Side note: it's amazing that the construction industry needs inspectors to keep workers honest. Brain surgeons can crack someone's skull open, move some stuff around, then put it back together without someone looking over their shoulder to making sure they did it right. Why can't contractors be trusted?!?
 
he sounds honest

but he is a salesman.

If this was a car: Yeah, your front brake pads are wearing, so i would recommend that we rebuild the calipers, new pads, and go ahead and put on new rotors, and those brake lines have been on the car for as long as the calipers have and they do dry out. And we should do a brake fluid flush as well since we are opening up the system. Might as well put on the rear pads, new brake lines and rotors while we are bleeding the system. All good advice, I guess, and the work would be done,

but you really only need turn the rotors and throw on new pads.....

Get another quote, and don't say anything. don't say so and so said the panel needs this work, etc
If you are going to trench yourself, the why not just run it yourself, and pay an electrician to do the hookup if you are not comfortable doing it?
 
Aluminum wire for high amp runs is in NEC code last I knew, so long as the gauge is proper to the breaker.
Nothing wrong with the 50a run. Natural gas won't stay cheap forever.
I always get 3 estimates on any work over $1500 or so. Just make sure whomever you use is liscensed insured and bonded. And a bit of googling as well
Electric doesn't have to be perfect, just safe. One electrician behind another will always point out issues or difference in opinion.

I honestly have no idea how you can wire a breaker wrong except you use the wrong gauge wire or reverse neutral and ground. Maybe it you just tie the ground to something?
 
Jwin said:
Aluminum wire for high amp runs is in NEC code last I knew, so long as the gauge is proper to the breaker.
Click to expand...
Aluminum must not be used unless the terminals are designed for aluminum conductors. Aluminum is OK for service entrance wiring but that is the only place IIRC. In any case if you do use aluminum you may only use it with breakers that are rated for aluminum conductors, grease it with the proper grease etc.

But do I recall correctly? That brings me to the point of this post which is that the only way to deal with an electrician (IMO) is to obtain a copy of the code, study it, know what you want, verify that it meets code and tell the electrician to do what you want. Electricians come in a lot of shapes and sizes (as do all of us) so finding one who will do what you tell him to may not be that easy. After several projects I have finally found one who will but others will simply ignore what you tell them to do and do what they want to do and others will tell you that you can't do what you want to do because the code prohibits it or simply refuse to do what you want. Basically the guy wants to do the job the way he wants to do it because that's how he has done it for years, that's the way he knows how to do it and that's the way he can do it the fastest, write up your bill and get on to the next job. You can't blame him for that. It is exactly what you would do were you in his shoes. He's got to feed his family too.

If he takes an IR photo of your panel and finds a hot breaker he may tell you it should be replaced and it probably should but depending on how hot it is it may not really be necessary. Again, you can't blame him for doing that.
Jwin said:
Nothing wrong with the 50a run.

I honestly have no idea how you can wire a breaker wrong except you use the wrong gauge wire or reverse neutral and ground. Maybe it you just tie the ground to something?
Click to expand...
Reversed neutral and earth in a panel would be pretty hard to miss as the former is white and should go to bus bar with all the other whites and the latter is bare and should go to the bussbar with all the other bare wires. If he did indeed use aluminum wire for a run within the house that is, I believe, a no-no and as mentioned above it would also be a no-no to connect aluminum wire to terminals limited to copper conductors only which, I believe, panel breakers (except the main disconnect) are.



Jwin said:
Electric doesn't have to be perfect, just safe.
Click to expand...

He isn't there to do the best job or the neatest job or the job that meets all your requirements. He's there to do it as quickly as he can, get it past inspection and avoid call - backs. Some guys take more pride in the quality of their work than others but if the guy spends too much time getting every aspect of the job 'right' he is taking food out of his family's mouths.

Jwin said:
One electrician behind another will always point out issues or difference in opinion.
Click to expand...

And that's OK because there is more than one way acceptable way to do a given job. The problem is that the onus is on the customer to determine which of the proposals is the best and, of course, the problem with that is that many (most) customers don't have the background to make informed choices between electricians who by and large are following by rote what they learned as apprentices and practices they have evolved as journeymen with the code as the holy book. The best I can suggest is learning what's in those scriptures yourself so at least you can speak their language.

It's not an easy read. If you happen to be trained both as a lawyer and an engineer it's probably going to be pretty easy. O/W no.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1455906727/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
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while I am an electrician by trade, i couldn't say much as US is so different to Finnish code and standards.

Over here, you can generally trust prof. electricians to give you the right info, they might still overcharge you if they don't feel like doing the work(many prefer to make the quote bigger instead of saying no).
 
ajdelange said:
Aluminum must not be used unless the terminals are designed for aluminum conductors. Aluminum is OK for service entrance wiring but that is the only place IIRC. In any case if you do use aluminum you may only use it with breakers that are rated for aluminum conductors, grease it with the proper grease etc.

But do I recall correctly? That brings me to the point of this post which is that the only way to deal with an electrician (IMO) is to obtain a copy of the code, study it, know what you want, verify that it meets code and tell the electrician to do what you want. Electricians come in a lot of shapes and sizes (as do all of us) so finding one who will do what you tell him to may not be that easy. After several projects I have finally found one who will but others will simply ignore what you tell them to do and do what they want to do and others will tell you that you can't do what you want to do because the code prohibits it or simply refuse to do what you want. Basically the guy wants to do the job the way he wants to do it because that's how he has done it for years, that's the way he knows how to do it and that's the way he can do it the fastest, write up your bill and get on to the next job. You can't blame him for that. It is exactly what you would do were you in his shoes. He's got to feed his family too.

If he takes an IR photo of your panel and finds a hot breaker he may tell you it should be replaced and it probably should but depending on how hot it is it may not really be necessary. Again, you can't blame him for doing that.
Reversed neutral and earth in a panel would be pretty hard to miss as the former is white and should go to bus bar with all the other whites and the latter is bare and should go to the bussbar with all the other bare wires. If he did indeed use aluminum wire for a run within the house that is, I believe, a no-no and as mentioned above it would also be a no-no to connect aluminum wire to terminals limited to copper conductors only which, I believe, panel breakers (except the main disconnect) are.





He isn't there to do the best job or the neatest job or the job that meets all your requirements. He's there to do it as quickly as he can, get it past inspection and avoid call - backs. Some guys take more pride in the quality of their work than others but if the guy spends too much time getting every aspect of the job 'right' he is taking food out of his family's mouths.



And that's OK because there is more than one way acceptable way to do a given job. The problem is that the onus is on the customer to determine which of the proposals is the best and, of course, the problem with that is that many (most) customers don't have the background to make informed choices between electricians who by and large are following by rote what they learned as apprentices and practices they have evolved as journeymen with the code as the holy book. The best I can suggest is learning what's in those scriptures yourself so at least you can speak their language.

It's not an easy read. If you happen to be trained both as a lawyer and an engineer it's probably going to be pretty easy. O/W no.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1455906727/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Click to expand...
I was basing the aluminum on the assumption that it was preexisting and not a new install. My main furnace has an aluminum run(27 years old).
Reversing neutral would be dumb and unlikely but how else could one wire a breaker incorrectly?
I've read NEC code as I've needed to, but I'm not an electrician.
 
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madscientist451 said:
So with the $600 for a permit its about $2100? Sounds like he was thorough, but I'd get a few more bids and see where it lands.
I used Aluminum wire when putting in a new service to my business, (not inside a house) and it was approved and worked fine. But different states may require copper in a residence. Its better to get it done right and not have to worry about it.
Click to expand...

The mains coming into both panels of my duplex are aluminum... and those are 100 amp lines. installed like 40 years ago.
 
Jwin said:
I was basing the aluminum on the assumption that it was preexisting and not a new install. My main furnace has an aluminum run(27 years old).
Reversing neutral would be dumb and unlikely but how else could one wire a breaker incorrectly?
I've read NEC code as I've needed to, but I'm not an electrician.
Click to expand...

The thing is the code is a constantly changing thing and the restrictions seem to constantly grow based on reported accidents as existing setups fail.
Whats good today wont likely be good 5 or 10 years from now. just like a 20 year old automobile could never be sold as a new vehicle today because it isnt considered safe or efficient enough by current standards... But that doesnt stop us folks who drive classic cars while some are appalled at our gas guzzling heavy rides that may not even have seat belts let alone airbags on all sides..
 
The 'first box' is called the 'service entrance' this side of the pond so it's the same. The codes (electric, fuel gas....) are still distinct from country to country but are adhering more and more to international standards.
 
yea, you guys have the weird busbar system though, here, all fuses are wired into the box, so there is no unshielded conductors.
some pictures of a small appartment distribution board, this would still get the outside input and then wired to the houses wiring of course:

WP_20160118_15_10_30_Pro.jpg


WP_20160118_15_10_40_Pro.jpg
 
Kharnynb said:
yea, you guys have the weird busbar system though, here, all fuses are wired into the box, so there is no unshielded conductors.
Click to expand...

The bussbar system has the obvious advantage that you only have to wire the load side. When you pop the breaker into the panel one end grabs the bussbar and the other a non conducting rail. The load side hot wire goes to the screw on the breaker and the other two to their respective screw terminal bussbars.

Kharnynb said:
...here, all fuses are wired into the box, so there is no unshielded conductors.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean here unless by 'fuse' you mean 'breaker'. With the DIN rail breakers obviously you have to wire the source side and the load side hot to the breaker. I then assume that the neutral is wired to the blue terminal block and the earth to the green. The earth wire would, in North America, be uninsulated (though it doesn't have to be). Is this not the case over there?


Kharnynb said:
some pictures of a small appartment distribution board, this would still get the outside input and then wired to the houses wiring of course:
Click to expand...

The most striking difference between Finnish and North American practice is that your panel appears to be fed from a 3ø Y connected source whereas over here the feed is bi-phase, that is a center tapped winding on a transformer connected to one of the distribution system phases. In many residential neighborhoods only one phase is present on the pole.

Curious about one thing in the picture - at the right end on the upper rail is what appears to be a 4-pole breaker isolating the other breakers on that rail from the rest. What is that for and why is the neutral protected? Actually I think I know the answer to the second part of my question but would like to hear your answer anyway.

One more question: how closely does Finnish practice resemble what's done in the rest of Europe?
 
breakers yea, not fuses, we use those too, but only where the first wire enters the building.

Not sure what you mean with wiring hot...we don't wire anything hot here, only licensed people ever take that cover off, and they will first turn of the main switch( marked pääkytkin) on the bottom left.

earth is green, the 2 "blocks" on the bottom left, the one blue one next to it is the main neutral, the neutral top right is for the earthfault protector next to it(the 4 pole thing).

most northern european countries follow similar systems, except britain who always have to be special.
we have 3-phase 240 volt from the "pole" which from the main "switch"(40 amp x3 in this picture) gets distributed over the breakers.
the top row of breakers in this picture is behind the groundfault protector.
Some devices might take all 3 phases (stoves, sauna heating) to combine for 400 volt.
 
Kharnynb said:
breakers yea, not fuses, we use those too, but only where the first wire enters the building.
Click to expand...
I thought it might be a language thing but I must say that your English is better (by quite a bit) than many of the people who post in these forums.

Kharnynb said:
Not sure what you mean with wiring hot...
Click to expand...
A language difference again. The wire(s) that we would formally call a 'phase' or 'ungrounded conductor', that is one that is not a 'grounded conductor' (neutral) or 'grounding conductor' (earth), we often refer to as a 'hot wire' or just a 'hot' probably because those are the ones that will give you a shock if you touch them.

Kharnynb said:
...we don't wire anything hot here, only licensed people ever take that cover off,
Click to expand...
There are probably some places here (where unions are strong) that require a licensed electrician to remove a panel cover but in many places the home owner is allowed to do so and most people with a failed breaker, for example, simply go to the hardware store or home improvement store, buy a replacement breaker and put it in themselves. This is much easier for us to do because of the bussbar panels. With the breaker out of the panel we can open it, connect the 'hot' wire to the single screw terminal and then just push it into place. While prudence would dictate opening the main disconnect/breaker you don't have to and I'll admit that I usually don't. Keep in mind that in a residence the highest potential to ground is, in the US, only 120 V.

Kharnynb said:
..and they will first turn of the main switch( marked pääkytkin) on the bottom left.
Click to expand...
Does that mean you are required to turn the main breaker off before removing the panel? Suppose, for example, you thought you had a bad connection to a breaker and wanted to take a thermograph (IR picture).



Kharnynb said:
..earth is green, the 2 "blocks" on the bottom left,
Click to expand...
Well it looks red to me though my color checker reveals that the red pixels in that part of the photo are turned completely off. So the secret is out. I'm color blind.


Kharnynb said:
..the one blue one next to it is the main neutral, the neutral top right is for the earthfault protector next to it(the 4 pole thing).
Click to expand...
Ah, that explains it. While we use GFCI/ELCB breakers here it is pretty rare. That protection is usually part of the receptacle.

Kharnynb said:
most northern european countries follow similar systems, except britain who always have to be special.
Click to expand...
I have had the pleasure of working under the British code.


Thanks for the answers.
 
no problem :D

For testing purposes, a licensed electrician can leave the main Switch/breaker on if needed, but any wiring should be done with the main breaker switched off.
Bigger systems even have a hole in the main breaker, through which the electrician is supposed to put a padlock to prevent accidentally switching it on.

Over here, you can't even buy breakers in the store, only through licensed hardware suppy stores that will not sell to people not carrying a "sähköturvalisuuskortti"(electrical safety card).

unlicensed people are only allowed to:
replace a hanging lamp from the "sugar cube" down
rewire a plug on class 2 or safer device.
anything over that requires a licensed electrician over here, mostly a requirement made by the insurance companies who will happily refuse to pay out if you ignore this.

adding breakers to a fuse box can only be done by an installer of the fusebox company or a similarily qualified company, to prevent unequal load on the network caused by some cowboy putting all the heavy load on only one phase.
 
here in the states, aluminum conductors #12 awg or larger are allowed by code but good luck finding a manufacturer that makes anything smaller than a #8 awg. this will typically limit you to circuits greater than 30 amps. it is not uncommon in residential construction to see aluminum used for branch circuits to electric range/oven combos or similar high amperage electrical loads. most (but not all) electrical breakers, etc. are rated for use with aluminum or copper.
 
If I had an electrician propose aluminum to me on a project I would say 'No'. 100' of 6/3 Romex is about $160. For the same ampacity in aluminum I'd need #4 which would cost ??. Say half that so I save $80. Aluminum is harder to install and has a bad history. Apparently many local codes still prohibit its use and some insurance companies, if they know you have it in your house, charge a higher premium or wont underwrite. To save $80 on the cost of the materials? I don't think so. Now if I were in an industrial setting installing lots of /0000, 250 MCM etc with electricians that know how to install and inspect aluminum wiring that would be a different matter.
 
Kharnynb said:
no problem :D

For testing purposes, a licensed electrician can leave the main Switch/breaker on if needed, but any wiring should be done with the main breaker switched off.
Bigger systems even have a hole in the main breaker, through which the electrician is supposed to put a padlock to prevent accidentally switching it on.

Over here, you can't even buy breakers in the store, only through licensed hardware suppy stores that will not sell to people not carrying a "sähköturvalisuuskortti"(electrical safety card).

unlicensed people are only allowed to:
replace a hanging lamp from the "sugar cube" down
rewire a plug on class 2 or safer device.
anything over that requires a licensed electrician over here, mostly a requirement made by the insurance companies who will happily refuse to pay out if you ignore this.

adding breakers to a fuse box can only be done by an installer of the fusebox company or a similarily qualified company, to prevent unequal load on the network caused by some cowboy putting all the heavy load on only one phase.
Click to expand...

Similar rules apply in this jurisdiction too. Minus the restrictions on the breaker/fusebox. A licensed electrician has the authorization for that. The homeowner does not. The only thing a homeowner can do legally here (in the panel), is switch a breaker on or off.

Otherwise, homeowners are restricted to replacing outlets, lamp bases, and fans. Installation of new additional fixtures, and outlets requires a licensed electrician.
 
ajdelange said:
Where is this jurisdiction?
Click to expand...

I was gonna ask the same thing... thats the kinda crap Id expect in The peoples republic of California but not in Oklahoma.

Its totally different in New York where I live... I could do whatever wiring I want but it needs to be inspected by a licensed electrician afterwards. (where they pick everything apart.) I had originally wired my hot tub with a really nice heavy insulated run of copper 6 awg that I removed from a large commercial xerox blueprint machine but since the wire was apparently not UL listed it was no good to use... It was fine for use all the xerox machines sold with it as a power cord for 15 years though... Go figure?
half of the industrial printing machines I install and repair for a living arent UL listed either and somehow thats ok? Anyone know why?
 
augiedoggy said:
I was gonna ask the same thing... thats the kinda crap Id expect in The peoples republic of California but not in Oklahoma.
Click to expand...

Oklahoma City will only issue permits to licensed contractors for MEP trades.

If the work requires a permit, which is just about anything beyond maintenance, then a licensed contractor has to perform the work.
 
augiedoggy said:
I was gonna ask the same thing... thats the kinda crap Id expect in The peoples republic of California but not in Oklahoma.
Click to expand...
Or the People's Republic of Masachussetts or rhe Peoples Republic of Maryland or...and finally, I'd think, the Peoples Republic of New York though the system you mention there does get the union guy his fee even though you did the work.


augiedoggy said:
half of the industrial printing machines I install and repair for a living arent UL listed either and somehow thats ok? Anyone know why?
Click to expand...
You want a logical explanation? What has logic got to do with it?
 
A union guy works for the union paid by the union, You'd never get one of those guys making house calls,its all commercial work. You would hire a local electrician to inspect and that wouldn't cost much, Far less than paying someone to do the work.
 
augiedoggy said:
I was gonna ask the same thing... thats the kinda crap Id expect in The peoples republic of California but not in Oklahoma.

Its totally different in New York where I live... I could do whatever wiring I want but it needs to be inspected by a licensed electrician afterwards. (where they pick everything apart.) I had originally wired my hot tub with a really nice heavy insulated run of copper 6 awg that I removed from a large commercial xerox blueprint machine but since the wire was apparently not UL listed it was no good to use... It was fine for use all the xerox machines sold with it as a power cord for 15 years though... Go figure?
half of the industrial printing machines I install and repair for a living arent UL listed either and somehow thats ok? Anyone know why?
Click to expand...

UL Listing is not universal - Underwriters Laboratories test things for Underwriters (insurance companies) so it's usually consumer goods that are tested. It used to be that almost no industrial or utility stuff was listed. Now it's becoming more common but it's not required in a lot of "supervised" type occupancies.

Your problem with the #6 cord is that there is a very explicit code requirement that cords cannot be used for permanent wiring. This is needed to keep folks from running extension cords above the ceiling and across the house.

I'm a licensed electrical engineer, and I don't claim to know the codes well enough to always have the answers in my head. It takes years of daily use to be proficient and as somebody pointed out the codes change regularly. So if you are doing wiring and then having it inspected I would plan on having some deficiencies noted.
 

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