Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
I thought current NEC was gfci for any kitchen or bathroom, including range and oven connections (but not on fridges)???
Electrian dad says GCFI is pointless?
- Thread starter mhermetz
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Did not mean to be grating, but sometimes the people most confident in their abilities believe that Murphy's Law doesn't apply to them or that the components of their build are impervious to failure.
I've watched union electricians zap themselves good and have met too many carpenters and contractors missing fingertips to read this kind of stuff and let it pass. I watched a guy get half his scalp ripped off because he had worked with a certain machine for 20 years with no issue, but he left his pony tail out of his hair net and guess what, sucked into rollers flying by at 10,000 rpm.
It is kind of second nature, though, to believe that you have done something 10,000 times and never had any failure or reason to believe that something bad would happen the 10,001st time you do something.
Love the firefighter analogy in the previous post.
Hermit
fuddle
I had to tell a guy that had a gas range plugged into one to ditch the thing. It kept blowing when he tried to use the oven but it worked fine on a regular outlet. Brand new range, no sign of any leakage current. It just would blow after the bake igniter was on for about 5 minutes. I've never seen an electric range on one.
I've been surprised to not see more people talking about problems with them because they have caused me grief as an appliance repairman. Same with a washing machine. Of course their the motor might have tripped it while it built up a field as it started. More going in than coming out?
It is absolutely a code requirement for commercial kitchen installations. I believe it only came into being in the last 10 years or so, though...
yep, here is a link saying 2002 is when the code changed...
http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/electric_code_basics_3/
Are you certain the GCFI was properly installed? Otherwise your manufacturer has a design defect. Also, GFCI outlet itself could have been damaged or faulty. I have seen that happen if it was wired incorrectly at first or the ground path is not correctly installed.
Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
OK. I am not an electrician but I was pretty sure about that and surprised to hear the contrary.
I don't want to mislead anyone here, so I will make it clear that I am not a licensed electrical contractor either. But, I have a degree in EE and have done enough to know better than to bypass safety measures for the reasons being given in this thread.
And the bottom line is you should ask yourself if you're willing to bet yours and others lives on it. If not, spend the few bucks and move on.
Hermit
fuddle
My duties ended at the end of the cord on the unit. The guy with the stove claimed it was the second one. Of course customers lied all the time so who knows. Those and some kind of energy saver that reduced voltage to 70% claiming once a motor was started it didn't need as much power. Well, yeah, that is why most major appliance motors have start windings..... You can't just arbitrarily reduce the running voltage 70% once it is running. Well, you can but that is another story.......
Photopilot
Well-Known Member
I am sure as a lifelong electrician your dad has been zapped a time or two and thinks nothing of it. So why bother with a GFCI anyways.
You do for small apliance circuits and recepticles. Dedicated appliances like a range does not need one. Well at least when I a was still a working electrician.
Hard wired appliances like water heaters and other wet location hard wired devices usually are not required to.
Hard wired appliances like water heaters and other wet location hard wired devices usually are not required to.
I am sure as a lifelong electrician your dad has been zapped a time or two and thinks nothing of it. So why bother with a GFCI anyways.
Yep, and lucky for him he was never standing in a puddle of spilled wort, chilling water, or stirring his wort with a metal spoon!
Photopilot
Well-Known Member
I wired my own house in 97 and it was code then. At least in Wyoming, which is not exactly cutting edge. Example: they let me wire my own house, with just a copy of electrical work for dummies as my only source.
A home owner by law has to be given a permit to do his own work. Though he still has to pass code inspections. That is a national rule.
07 code had you put a GFCI on your stove?
Correct. see below for residential kitchen:
Per 210.8(A)(6), GFCI protection is required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles that serve kitchen countertop surfaces in a dwelling unit (Fig. 1 on page 54). GFCI protection is not required for receptacles serving appliances like dishwashers, or convenience receptacles that do not supply countertop surfaces. Receptacles installed within 6 ft of the outside edge of a wet bar sink must also be GFCI-protected [210.8(A)(7)]. However, GFCI protection is not required for receptacles not intended to serve wet bar countertop surfaces, such as refrigerators, ice makers, water heaters, or convenience receptacles that do not supply counter-top surfaces.
in my interpretation, the intent of the code in both residential and commercial settings is to protect people that will come in contact or dynamically use outlets within cord range of water sources and also to allow you to keep cost down by not going to those lengths in areas that are not usually accessible or are not at risk of being a wet area (crawl spaces and garages are required to be GFCI, for example)...
But to run up to 3000-7000W through an electric heating element with intend of dealing with gallons of water and risk of spillage, IMO you're taking your life into your (or in the case of this thread, your father's) hand's to bypass a simple and inexpensive safety measure.
Permits are by municipality, but "ve personally never been in an area that didn't require a permit and inspection for plumbing and electrical work.
Not sure the official interpretation, but is a stove a "countertop surface?" Seems to indicate it has to be GFCI on that basis. Seems overkill for a gas powered stove with only the ignition being electric, for example.
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It's actually his father taken his own and his sons lives. The OP wanted the protection. His father doing the work doesn't.
I understood it as basically, any outlet that is mounted above a counter top for appliances needs the GFCI protection.
Photopilot
Well-Known Member
Woops I meant the other 7. I wired my house in 97. GFCIs were required in Kitchen and bathroom outlets only then.
OP
OP
mhermetz
Well-Known Member
welp.... this whole debate was a waste of time.
I talked with him when I got home from work. The reason he said it's,"Unnecessary" and "pointless" is because ,"we already have one sitting in the garage"... lol. He thought I was asking whether we needed to buy one or not... not whether it was required for the setup.
yeah my dad, the mad scientist, tends to think he explains things fully in his head but then doesn't actually mention it. He reminds me of that scientist from Fringe...kind of look alike too.
when I explained the mix up, he did state the likely hood of something going wrong was very unlikely. He then explained the house fire he inspected 5 years ago was unexpected but try explaining that to the parents that lost 2 kids.
so yeah... In GOOD news! I came home to my Blingmann sitting in the living room! a whole 2 weeks early!! Go homebrew-supplies.com!
Really hoping I have this ready for my next brew this weekend! So pumped.
I talked with him when I got home from work. The reason he said it's,"Unnecessary" and "pointless" is because ,"we already have one sitting in the garage"... lol. He thought I was asking whether we needed to buy one or not... not whether it was required for the setup.
yeah my dad, the mad scientist, tends to think he explains things fully in his head but then doesn't actually mention it. He reminds me of that scientist from Fringe...kind of look alike too.
when I explained the mix up, he did state the likely hood of something going wrong was very unlikely. He then explained the house fire he inspected 5 years ago was unexpected but try explaining that to the parents that lost 2 kids.
so yeah... In GOOD news! I came home to my Blingmann sitting in the living room! a whole 2 weeks early!! Go homebrew-supplies.com!
Really hoping I have this ready for my next brew this weekend! So pumped.
Photopilot
Well-Known Member
Maybe the father is the benificiary of his life insurance.
"Dad, why do you wipe your fingerprints off your work?"
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
LOL! 6 pages of wiener measuring and name calling, and it all ends in "oops".
Kind of anticlimactic...I wanted your dad to come in hurling lightning bolts and beating down naysayers...
OP
OP
mhermetz
Well-Known Member
lol... My bad....
<-- appalled at how many jumped on the "f*** the safety crap" bandwagon. Turns out the wagon didn't have wheels. Nice.
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
f*** the wheels! :rockin:
LOL! Awesome. Your dad is a wiser man than you initially made him out to be! Give the old man some credit, would ya!
OP
OP
mhermetz
Well-Known Member
hummm jsut thought of another problem...
My Immersion chiller won't be sanitized by sticking it in the boil with 15min left now. It would most likely touch the element....I'm assuming this is REALLY bad.
Soaking it in starsan before I turn off the element is okay thought right? Starsan isn't bad for copper?
My Immersion chiller won't be sanitized by sticking it in the boil with 15min left now. It would most likely touch the element....I'm assuming this is REALLY bad.
Soaking it in starsan before I turn off the element is okay thought right? Starsan isn't bad for copper?
I don't see a problem with setting your IC on the element.
You could probably mount a bracket on the chiller to hold it higher in the tank than the element. Just make sure it is secure and you can't accidentally knock it onto the element... good question how others solve this issue
If you are feeling brave (you have the GFCI now, afterall) reach down in the cold water and touch your element while it is on. I've done this with my 5500W without a trip to the hospital.
OP
OP
mhermetz
Well-Known Member
uuuh... C'est What?
that just seems mad....mad like starting a topic about not using a GFCI when you just misunderstood someone....craziness.
the bracket idea is good....actually I just had an idea... Use a couple 3/8 copper 90's to create a sort of hook so i can hang over the lip of the kettle.
uuuh... C'est What?
that just seems mad....mad like starting a topic about not using a GFCI when you just misunderstood someone....craziness.
the bracket idea is good....actually I just had an idea... Use a couple 3/8 copper 90's to create a sort of hook so i can hang over the lip of the kettle.
That would probably work. I think the idea of being able to set the chiller on the element is that it conducts heat but not electricity (obvious I know)...
Fragility or longevity of the element would be the only concern, IMO, and that question is probably best in a whole new thread or a search of the forum for how people solve that issue.
chefmike
Well-Known Member
Random... but if someone is really interested in the GFCI topic that might want to check out this book:
Pretty sure that is not true. You can still trip off a 240v GFCI without a neutral.
Well that solves your moral dilemma. I would not say the thread was a waste of time. It brought a bunch of good info on both sides of the argument.
Him saying that, does not definitively put an end to the debate. We are building...well... essentially commercial appliances with these rigs. Do they absolutely need a GFCI? Would NEC cover something like this? What would the UL want if this were a commercial product? I am not convinced a rule or code would require it. I am sure it would be required to have a disconnect within a certain distance from the unit. Like a air conditioning unit. But maybe it would require a disconnect and a GFCI like a hottub.
Excellent point for commercial and professional electricians. IMO, for the majority of the readers and weekend warriors on boards like this the threshold should be lower to the "how much money and effort are you looking to save if the tradeoff is risking your life?"
Maybe I am giving some people too much credit in some cases and too little in others, but I just feel in a place like this filled with hackers and slashers it is extremely dangerous to have a professional-level discussion, as only a fraction of the work is going to be "professional quality" in all likelihood and overkill is probably the best recommendation.
Hell, guys here build brew stands out of 2"x2"x.120" stainless steel! WTF are we doing talking about cutting the cost of a GFCI?
Hermit
fuddle
Excellent point for commercial and professional electricians. IMO, for the majority of the readers and weekend warriors on boards like this the threshold should be lower to the "how much money and effort are you looking to save if the tradeoff is risking your life?"
Maybe I am giving some people too much credit in some cases and too little in others, but I just feel in a place like this filled with hackers and slashers it is extremely dangerous to have a professional-level discussion, as only a fraction of the work is going to be "professional quality" in all likelihood and overkill is probably the best recommendation.
Hell, guys here build brew stands out of 2"x2"x.120" stainless steel! WTF are we doing talking about cutting the cost of a GFCI?
Strangely enough I was just discussing Darwin Awards with someone on IM.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
This on the first posting but yet you discover you already have a GFI to install later on around page 6 to 8. Contradicting statements here?
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
I've never run across a 240VAC single phase leg to ground before please explain this one it's new to me being a 29 year IBEW member? Possible with 480 VAC single phase with one or the other legs going to ground yes then you would have a 240VAC voltage potential to ground.
L1 & L2 thru your body with single phase I can agree with having a 240 VAC shock potential but not to ground.
Not to start a pissing war just a statement and a correction added, i'm out of here on this thread.
You're right. I should have said 240VAC across lines.
Hell, guys here build brew stands out of 2"x2"x.120" stainless steel! WTF are we doing talking about cutting the cost of a GFCI?
touché.................................
Very good point. We do to tend to be kings of overkill! Like you said there is a pretty good percentage of people who probably should not even be attemping an electric build. They do though, so they should make sure any safety facility out there is used.
Just to repeat for the record again. I am using a 30amp GFCI cord on my rig.
