PM versus All grain

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Warrior

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I know this question comes up quite a bit on here. I used to do all grain most of the time. Since starting to brew again the 1st of the year I have brewed 16 batches of beer and did my 1st all grain 11 gal batch yesterday. Here's my comparison of the two.

I really like brewing the PM because I can brew in the house on top of the stove. My partial mash set up is not as efficent as my false bottom keg. That is because I'm only using a grain sparge bag in a bucket set up verses a split sloted copper plates on a false bottom in the keg. I'm getting .0312 pts/lb per gallon with the false bottom but only .0230 pts/lb per gallon with the sparge bag. I'm going to make a mash tun out of a cooler with a syphon tube and screen to up the efficency of my mashes for when doing them in the house.

The all grain set up requires a lot more equipment and a lot more work. I rounded up my kegs, propane burners, hot liquor tank, wort chiller and false bottom Sat before brewing on Sunday. Cleaned everything up and boiled some water in the kegs to clean them up good. It was nice brewing on the deck I just built two years ago for the 1st time as everything in the house was close by. My SWMBPO (She Whom Must Be Pissed Off because I seem to do it quite often to her) likes it better that I brew outside because most of the mess and smell is outside. The justification that comes from the all grain set up is that I can brew an 11 gal batch in about 8 hours which includes clean up. It takes me about 5 to 5 1/2 hours to brew the partial mash in the house but that is becuase my stove top is slower than my propane cookers for bringing the water up to temp.

Advantages of the PM system is I can brew during the week after work in the house, PM allows me to brew more often. It's a lot less work than firing up the keg system. New brewers that want to all grain can PM as a way to keep equipment costs down and still be able to brew in the house. My recomendation is to definately build a mash tun with a gott style cooler with a false bottom. The sparge bag set up just is not as efficent as the false bottom design. Also by doing partial boils of 3 1/2 to 4 gal in a 5 gal pot you don't need a wort chiller.

A disadvantge might be (my guess) that my Helles beer is not as good as when I made it all grain. It was missing that grainy german malt flavor that I used to get with all grain. My 1st helles was only 3.5 lbs of German grain and 4.5 lbs of DME. That might be the reason so I brewed a Helles that used 7.5 lbs of grain, .5 lb more munich verses the pils and 2.5 lbs of DME verses the last PM. I will have to brew an 11 gal all grain helles like I used to make and then compare that to my PM that used more munich and grain.

Oh well this is a long and drawn out comparison I hope it's helpful to anyone interested in PM or all grain brewing.

Warrior
 
Someday I will go AG (currently PM w/ about 5lbs grain per batch). I don't think indoor/outdoor is a factor because its possible to do indoor AG, especially if you've got a garage, even better if the garage is attached. The smell of brewing beer is great. My swmbo likes it too. :D She does hate the mess though.

PM is good for saving time and not needing much equipment. I do it cause I don't have space to store the gear. I need a basement.

AG is good for when you want to go all out and have control over everything. You need more money, time, and space for AG.

That said, before I go AG I will definitly try PM full wort boils first to see the difference it makes in the beers. After going AG I'm sure I'll still make PM beers too.

Sorry if thats a long drawn out reply. :D
 
doubleb said:
Someday I will go AG (currently PM w/ about 5lbs grain per batch). I don't think indoor/outdoor is a factor because its possible to do indoor AG, especially if you've got a garage, even better if the garage is attached. The smell of brewing beer is great. My swmbo likes it too. :D She does hate the mess though.

PM is good for saving time and not needing much equipment. I do it cause I don't have space to store the gear. I need a basement.

AG is good for when you want to go all out and have control over everything. You need more money, time, and space for AG.

That said, before I go AG I will definitly try PM full wort boils first to see the difference it makes in the beers. After going AG I'm sure I'll still make PM beers too.

Sorry if thats a long drawn out reply. :D
Good reply, not too long! I used to brew in my garage when I AG years ago. My garage is 125 feet behind my house which makes for quite a few trips up and down. The back deck is a lot nicer for me my AG system would never work in the house, just not enough room and not pratical.
 
I'd go AG if I could splurge on the equipment but for now I have to take it slow with SWMBO. I finally got my kegerator set up and that part took long enough for "approval" as it is. :D

When I started talking about getting a burner and how I could do it outside and hook up to our NG outlet she gave me dirty looks. I will have to take it easy. :)
 
I am at the PM stage as well and may stay there. I also think inside brewing is nice especially in the winter. This is when I usually brew. I use the stove top, cooler MLT, and it does a decent job. I might get a larger pot(32-40QT) and try stove top AG in the future.
I think I prefer 5 gallon batches over 10. Granted they are more time consuming to produce as many gallons but I like many many different beers to drink. Right now I have 6 different beers at various stages of development. If I went AG/10 gallons I would only have 3 different types. Variety is the spice of life:tank: Charlie
PS I was recently offered a 15 gallon keggle to use (and maybe keep) w/ a chiller and MLT!! So I will give it a whirl and see how the 2 compare.
 
balto charlie said:
I am at the PM stage as well and may stay there. I also think inside brewing is nice especially in the winter. This is when I usually brew. I use the stove top, cooler MLT, and it does a decent job. I might get a larger pot(32-40QT) and try stove top AG in the future.
I think I prefer 5 gallon batches over 10. Granted they are more time consuming to produce as many gallons but I like many many different beers to drink. Right now I have 6 different beers at various stages of development. If I went AG/10 gallons I would only have 3 different types. Variety is the spice of life:tank: Charlie
PS I was recently offered a 15 gallon keggle to use (and maybe keep) w/ a chiller and MLT!! So I will give it a whirl and see how the 2 compare.
I also like to brew a lot of different beers. I agree the 5 gal batch sizes are better for when brewing different styles. I save the 10 gal batches for what I like to drink a lot. For me that is the Helles, Boh Pils and Am IPA.

Bottles
IPA
Ger Wheat
Helles
Sp Bitter
Eng Br Ale
Cr Ale

Pri
10 gal Helles
10 gal Boh Pils

Sec
Eng Br Ale
Boh Pils
Helles

Brewing
Tomorrow
Sp Bitter

Fri
10 gal IPA
 
partial mash is soooo close to all grain you might as well do all grain imo
 
I partial mash at my apartment cuz then i can do a partial boil. i'm stuck with splitting between pots if i do all-grain, plus it can get messy and last over 5 hours.

i can do a PM brew in my apartment on my stove in 3.5 hours...that includes prep and cleanup. that's how i can kick out 2-3 brews a week and still feel relaxed ;)
 
partial mash is soooo close to all grain you might as well do all grain imo

I agree with this. I didn't realize that the step from PM to all grain is pretty small. I can still brew in my apartment, and the amount of time it takes is pretty much the same. I'm not sure if this is true for everyone though, as i have a stove and brewpot that can accomodate full (6.5 gallon) boils.

I just did my first all grain batch yesterday with my new cooler MLT. I heat the strike and sparge water in my brewpot, and collect the runnings in my fermentation bucket. When i'm finished i pour the wort back into the brew kettle and clean and sanitize the bucket and the rest of my equipment. Between setup, brewing, and cleaning up i was done in a little under 5 hours.

It also isn't that much more expensive either. I built my MLT for under $60. I also find that when ordering kits online, the all grain options are generally $5-10 cheaper then the partial mash or extract versions.

For some pics of my indoor setup you can see this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f85/first-all-grain-brew-day-pics-97348/
 
I agree with this. I didn't realize that the step from PM to all grain is pretty small. I can still brew in my apartment, and the amount of time it takes is pretty much the same. I'm not sure if this is true for everyone though, as i have a stove and brewpot that can accomodate full (6.5 gallon) boils.

I just did my first all grain batch yesterday with my new cooler MLT. I heat the strike and sparge water in my brewpot, and collect the runnings in my fermentation bucket. When i'm finished i pour the wort back into the brew kettle and clean and sanitize the bucket and the rest of my equipment. Between setup, brewing, and cleaning up i was done in a little under 5 hours.

It also isn't that much more expensive either. I built my MLT for under $60. I also find that when ordering kits online, the all grain options are generally $5-10 cheaper then the partial mash or extract versions.

For some pics of my indoor setup you can see this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f85/first-all-grain-brew-day-pics-97348/
I've been back to brewing AG again most of the time. Most of my batchs are 11 gal in size. I'm also doing mostly step mashes with a protein rest at 122 deg for 30 mins. The partial mashes I did, didn't have the body I wanted in most of my beers no matter if I used a 154 or even 158 deg single infusion mash. The protein rest seems to help this quite a bit.
 
I forgot the part where you said you do 11 gallon batches. I imagine that would not be possible on an indoor stove of any kind.

Being that i just moved to all grain, i just wanted to chime in and say that it is possible to do it indoors and relatively inexpensively, however i only plan on doing single infusions and i batch sparge. I'm sure there are exceptions (like large batch sizes) that would be impossible to do indoors.
 
I recently built a small MLT with a 3 gallon cube cooler I purchased for 15

bucks and about 10bucks worth of parts from the hardware store. I ordered

the ingredients for BM's blonde ale the other day and now I am just waiting

for a day off to do it. It will be my trial run of the MLT and will be a partial

mash version with a hefty portion of the grain bill being actual grain. I plan

to overshoot the OG a little with the grain in case my efficiency sucks then

to use DME to adjust the final SG at the end of boil. Wish me luck! Hopefully,

this time next year I will be brewing AG! This year of doing PM's should be a

useful primer though.
 
i do like your explaination of being able to brew during the week, that is not really possible for me.
i do however like that i can do everything, save for put wort into fermemnter and ferment outside.
my kitchen is small for the size of my house, and this weekend was my first all-in-the-garage brew day. wow!
it went soo fast! i bottled a batch, while doing my boil outside. i spent about 4 hours, start to finish. this included sanitizing bottles, bottling, mashing, boiling, cooling, and cleaning up. never been so easy for me. two burners has made my brewing life so much easier.
starting the boil with the first runnings has saved time too. much more enjoyable!
my 9 year old was much more into it too, he actually likes the smell of the mash now...i paid him a whopping three dollars for helping me. SWMBO got jack ****, but she is gonna drink it!

i would like to maybe do 2 gallon batches on the stove during the week, and it would keep my mr beer fermenter from being empty....


another thought, the pol's warning about garage brewing with LPG had me thinking... 2 burners wide open, one @ 45k btu, and the other at 185k btu, even with the door open......i do have a CO detector, and it did not make a peep... but still.
i need to test it.
 
partial mash is soooo close to all grain you might as well do all grain imo

:rolleyes: Why are there so many AG snobs who insist that is the only way to brew beer. I an quite happy with my PM set up and the results it has delivered. IMO a skilled brewer can make great beer with extract and grains, just as a lousy brewer can make crap with all grain. A lousy beer is a function of poor technique.
 
:rolleyes: Why are there so many AG snobs who insist that is the only way to brew beer. I an quite happy with my PM set up and the results it has delivered. IMO a skilled brewer can make great beer with extract and grains, just as a lousy brewer can make crap with all grain. A lousy beer is a function of poor technique.
Has nothing to do with being an AG snob. Just cheaper to use AG and my recipes are much better compared to my PM. To be fair all my PM were single infusuion. I find a step mash with a protein rest produces a much better beer for what I want most of my beers to be like.
 
:rolleyes: Why are there so many AG snobs who insist that is the only way to brew beer. I an quite happy with my PM set up and the results it has delivered. IMO a skilled brewer can make great beer with extract and grains, just as a lousy brewer can make crap with all grain. A lousy beer is a function of poor technique.

while this is true, all-grain gives you more options and allows you greater control over your end product. i use all methods, but i prefer AG or PM over extract any day.

that being said, i make a dunkelweizen PM that is just as good as with all-grain. better, in fact. i think the carmelization of the extract in the partial boil actually improves the character.
 
OK - here is the problem with the AG snob thing. Being a PMer it DOES sound snobby but in reality AG people are correct - AG IS better. The question, is it better bang for buck FOR YOU!

One guy says he can do AG in indoors in a little over 5 hours. FOR ME - that is too long! For him - I guess not. It's all a matter of taste. I'm REALLY liking the quality of my beer so "at this moment" I have no interest in going AG. I can full boil in the garage.

Yes - once you get the equipment AG is cheaper. But if I wanted too I could get my costs to less then $1 a bottle with bulk purchases. As another person said he can brew after work, I've done that and it's is easy.

SO - I don't believe most AGers are being snobby. They are stating a fact that AG turns out a better beer IF you want to take the extra time. The question is "how much better". For us PMers - not enough. So far I have not tasted an average AG that is better then my average PM.
 
SO - I don't believe most AGers are being snobby.

I'm fairly certain they are. Anyone who sees PM as a baby-step to AG and thinks it should be skipped, is just being a snob. And I don't mean Support of Native Oregon Beer either.
 
OK - here is the problem with the AG snob thing. Being a PMer it DOES sound snobby but in reality AG people are correct - AG IS better.

Thanks for being able to magically tell me what is right or wrong in *MY* world. You truly are a gifted prognosticator. :rolleyes:

So far I have not tasted an average AG that is better then my average PM.

And I'm sure this was a true blind taste test with no preconceived bias towards the AG magically tasting better, right?
 
And I'm sure this was a true blind taste test with no preconceived bias towards the AG magically tasting better, right?

um, you may wish to re-read his post. he said that the average ag WERE NOT better than the average PM.

grinder wasn't doing anything but further explaining why he thinks PM and AG are a better alternative, but you suddenly seem to be a bit snooty.

funny how that works when you just complained about people being snobs.
 
I do AG in the house/garage. I do not have SWMBO but I do have a gf that has her own place... She does like Beer and she is interested in making beer herself. We are going to do Ed's Apfelwine This weekend...Woot Woot!! I mash and sparge in my kitchen and boil in the garage ( just because I have a glass top electric stove and use a Banjo burner). I was super messy at first but now It is a smooth and easy process for me. I have to use my bath tub to clean my 70qt cooler and cleaning the Keggle is a PITA, but not as bad as bottling
 
I would like to take the plunge and go all grain, but reading some of the water problems people are encountering in here, it curbs my enthusiasm as I live in the country and KNOW I have hard water.
 
If you want to try all grain just do it. I have always been one to get on with it, damn them torpedo's - full steam ahead. All you need is a large enough cooler/mash-tun with a stainless braid and a big enough boiler and a burner to heat it. The rest of the stuff you already have if you brew. It's not much money and the beer is fabulous if you pay attention to what you are doing. You do not need the fancy stuff to make really good beer. You do need to learn the process well before you start. It's just like cooking. You need a recipe. If you can boil water then you can learn to brew all grain beer.
 
I would like to take the plunge and go all grain, but reading some of the water problems people are encountering in here, it curbs my enthusiasm as I live in the country and KNOW I have hard water.
Hard water as in high carbonates? I use well water that is very high in oxidized iron. I use two 5 micron filters, one before and one after my holding tank. I then use a pur filter at the kitchen sink to filter the drinking and brewing water. The 5 micron gets most of the large particles. The two stage charcoal filter at the sink gets most of the other stuff. It's a hassle filling gal water jugs but much better than buying bottled water to brew with. BTW try brewing with bottled water first and then through a filter system at home to compare beers. Brew preferably a gold lager to really see how the water is.
 
good idea warrior.
i have a well that is very high in iron, and manganese... i use 2 2-stage sediment filers, both 5 micron final, and i still cannot drink my water. i replaced the second sediment with a carbon block 1 micron ONCE.... $40.00 bucks a cartridge, and it was useless after two weeks... but, it's whole house, so my showers, toilets and everything go through these filters.

im thinkin a point of use carbon 2 stage like you mentioned for brewing and drinking.
i hate lugging 8 gallons of "spring water" @ a buck each, plus a 2.5 gallon for in the fridge drinking every damned weekend.

got a link to your carbon point of use setup?

did YOU notice a higher quality brew, or just less hassle?

sorry to go O.T.
 
good idea warrior.
i have a well that is very high in iron, and manganese... i use 2 2-stage sediment filers, both 5 micron final, and i still cannot drink my water. i replaced the second sediment with a carbon block 1 micron ONCE.... $40.00 bucks a cartridge, and it was useless after two weeks... but, it's whole house, so my showers, toilets and everything go through these filters.

im thinkin a point of use carbon 2 stage like you mentioned for brewing and drinking.
i hate lugging 8 gallons of "spring water" @ a buck each, plus a 2.5 gallon for in the fridge drinking every damned weekend.

got a link to your carbon point of use setup?

did YOU notice a higher quality brew, or just less hassle?

sorry to go O.T.
You can by the pur filters for your sink at any Home Depot, Lowes or even Wal mart. I buy the replacement filters in a two pak and they cost around $30 for the two. It says you can get 100 gal of water from each filter. I think I get a little more than that, I know I get at least four brews (16 gals each time) plus my drinking water over that time. I replace the filters about every two to three months depending on how much I brew. As for the beer, I think the water makes a great Helles and that is a good test for your water source, any off flavors and it definately shows up in a Helles.
 
nosmatt - Setting up a drinking & brewing filter makes a great deal of sense. When I lived in Las Vegas, I never knew if I was going to get well water or river water, one day to the next. I had a particle filter for the whole house and used a secondary carbon filter for drinking water.
 
i do AG indoors will be moving to outdoors due to SWMBO not willing to let me fill the house with the aromas of brewing. but it is definitely possible and easier then most think heres a pic of my indoor setup.
IMG000152.jpg

wasn't too expensive either for the equipment a couple coolers and ball locks your set. i also drilled a hole in my kettle and added a ball lock to it. pics of that in my gallery
 
I'm also a lucky one who can pull of an AG inside, my range-top has one burner that is extra large. PMs are great too but I tend to go AG for price reasons now. I can get 10lb of base malt for the price of 3lb dry extract, and if I gotta mash anyway, then sucks to the extract(for price reasons, I have nothing personal against extract). I was able to get a free sports cooler to mash in, and a malt mill and immersion chiller were the only new equipment I added to my set-up, and went in on those with friends to further ease the cost.
 
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