What yeast to use to start a Flanders

Ok, going to brew a Flanders Red later this month.

I'm going to start with Sacc and add the bugs later. I don't want to contaminant my main fermenters and will rack to several 5-liter glass jugs after 7 days and add the bugs then. The bug starter is already going.

I was planning on WLP550, but my basement is cool now and I would need to heat the fermenter. Not too much of a problem (swamp cooler + fish heater), but it is some extra work.

I have PacMan available, and it will be fine at basement temperatures (low 60s). Does the sacc yeast make much difference, after 12+ months on the bugs?

So should I use the PacMan, or should I make the extra effort to ferment the WLP550 warm (70s).

My experience with using brett after the primary is that the esters created by belgian yeasts are in some way utilized by the brett. I have spiked a few sacch beers and instead of adding priming sugar to them I just added a squirt of brett to each bottle. When the corks pushed out I tossed them into the fridge. Well the results were interesting. The malt flavors were the same but the yeasty esters and phenolics were very much more subdued in the bretted bottles. So while I don't have a neutral yeast bottle with brett to compare it to, I am inclined to say use the Belgian sacch instead of a neutral one.

Calder said:

Ok, going to brew a Flanders Red later this month.

I'm going to start with Sacc and add the bugs later. I don't want to contaminant my main fermenters and will rack to several 5-liter glass jugs after 7 days and add the bugs then. The bug starter is already going.

I was planning on WLP550, but my basement is cool now and I would need to heat the fermenter. Not too much of a problem (swamp cooler + fish heater), but it is some extra work.

I have PacMan available, and it will be fine at basement temperatures (low 60s). Does the sacc yeast make much difference, after 12+ months on the bugs?

So should I use the PacMan, or should I make the extra effort to ferment the WLP550 warm (70s).

Click to expand...

Is your primary fermenter a glass carboy? If so there is no worry of contaminating it, plastic on the other hand would be a concern.

Regardless of the primary strain you use, you may want to let the gravity decide when to rack to secondary and not time. After 7 days you maybe fermented so far down you will never get a good sourness. I think between 1.030 and 1.025 is a good time to rack. Some recipes call for .020, but I think thats too low.

Pacman is a beast so again if you decide to use it check your gravity at maybe 3 days. I like to use a low attenuating strain like Wyeast 1968 *if* I actually do intend to transfer and not just ferment everything in primary.

I would skip the separate clean ale yeast and go directly to using one of the sour blends. They already have sacch in them, and letting the brett/bacteria get a chance at some of the nutrients/easily digestable sugars you get a more sour/funky/complex beer

I plan to start 6 gallons in a 7 gallon plastic fermenter. It is used for other beers so I don't want to contaminate it. That's why i want to start out with just the sacc yeast.

I have a gallon of wort with the bugs going right now, which will be mixed with the main batch when I rack it to several smaller glass fermenters. These will then be stored in my crawl space.

I mash high to leave a lot for the bugs. Last time with WLP550, I left it 2 weeks and racked at 1.018 (OG = 1.056).

Again, I have the question; does the primary yeast make much difference. PacMan vs WLP550. I have both available to pitch.

Just pitch Roeselare right away. No sacc.

I would use the 550, the esters seem to make a difference, and I believe it is a bit less attenuating, leaving more food for the bugs to do their thing. That being said, you will likely have a very subtle "wild" flavor if you don't pitch the bugs up front. I was disappointed when I made my first version of a Flemish red the same way you are planning on doing it, and now I pitch the bugs up front. I also bought a second plastic bucket in which to ferment my clean beers.

I haven't been too impressed with Roselare. I'd go with a belgian yeast, then transfer to secondary when the gravity is about 1.020. This will leave enough sugars for the bugs to work on. I'd pitch commerical dregs along with brett.

I think using pacman would be a mistake. #1 because I don't like pacman yeast #2 making a belgian style beer with a neutral american ale yeast won't taste right. Same goes for the grain in my opinion, use belgian grains. I know you didn't mention what grains you're using, but it's a big pet peev of mine when US breweries use US malts when brewing belgian beers. They just don't taste right. If you're gonna brew something that is going to age for 1-2 years do it right the first time. Sorry, not meaning to rant .. just very passionate about belgian beers.

jusware said:

I think using pacman would be a mistake. #1 because I don't like pacman yeast #2 making a belgian style beer with a neutral american ale yeast won't taste right. Same goes for the grain in my opinion, use belgian grains. I know you didn't mention what grains you're using, but it's a big pet peev of mine when US breweries use US malts when brewing belgian beers. They just don't taste right. If you're gonna brew something that is going to age for 1-2 years do it right the first time. Sorry, not meaning to rant .. just very passionate about belgian beers.

Click to expand...

For a beer that is sititng on bugs for at least a year, especially roselare.. the primary yeast character is going to be absolutely non-existent.

But.... Its not about the character of the primary yeast, It is about the byproducts of that yeast and their eventual utilization by the souring organisms later in fermentation.

So while fermenting with generic American Ale vs Say WLP565 saison yeast may seem like a good idea you will be missing a significant amount of complexity by the end.

Also, at least around me all the Wyeast and White Labs strains are the same price, so why choose the neutral yeast if there is even a chance of it not creating the best beer? I can understand if you are using a culture or slant of the same yeast every time you brew, but then you are really missing out on other styles....


Ohhh wait I just thought of a great way to put this.... Think of your primary yeast strain byproducts (esters phenols etc) as a set of legos, and your souring bugs (brett, Lacto etc) as small children. If you yeast only produces 2x4 yellow blocks you end result is limited in complexity by this, Now if your have a yeast strain that gives you a block set of 1x2, 4x4, 2x4 blocks in yellow, red, black ad blue, you are bound to get a more interesting result even if the exact same structure is built.

I'm curious then why it is rumored that the Sacc strain in Roeselare is Chico?

Hopefully Tonsmeire can chime in.

elproducto said:

I'm curious then why it is rumored that the Sacc strain in Roeselare is Chico?

Hopefully Tonsmeire can chime in.

Click to expand...

Now not that I've done a whole lot of reading on Wyeast Roeselare, that's the first I heard it's 1056/001/05. I assumed it was some sort of belgian yeast of course.

I ended up using some washed slurry of WLP550. It was the right thing to do, but I have to keep it warm ..... not too much trouble, but a little extra effort. Mashed high to make it less fermentable. Have it sitting in swamp cooler at 72 F right now.

........ Sorry .... American grains for the most part.

Might add some Malto-Dextrine when I rack it into the 5-liter glass fermenters with the bugs for the long haul.

The Bugs are currently in 6 pints of wort (now beer), and was made up of 8 ozs of the previous sour starter, some additional La Roja dregs, and some additions from previous batches which I harvested when I bottled them earlier in the month.

jusware said:

I think using pacman would be a mistake. #1 because I don't like pacman yeast #2 making a belgian style beer with a neutral american ale yeast won't taste right. Same goes for the grain in my opinion, use belgian grains. I know you didn't mention what grains you're using, but it's a big pet peev of mine when US breweries use US malts when brewing belgian beers. They just don't taste right. If you're gonna brew something that is going to age for 1-2 years do it right the first time. Sorry, not meaning to rant .. just very passionate about belgian beers.

Click to expand...

So does this mean that a Belgian brewer using American hops isn't brewing Belgian beer? What if a Belgian brewer uses malt from France or Germany, does this make that brewers beer less Belgian? What even defines a Belgian beer?
We're talking about Flanders Red, so strictly speaking that would imply a red beer from the Flanders region of Belgium. But we're not in Flanders, so how should we refer to a acidic red beer brewed in North America? I think using the word Belgian doesn't mean it should be taken in any literal sense, but rather in general terms, allowing for some frame of reference.

Actually, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Beer styles should be brewed as authentic as possible. Can you make a good "belgian style" beer with american 2 row. Yes. Will it be as good as a belgian beer with belgian grains and regional ingredients .. in my opinion .. no. That's just my opinion.

Go out and buy 5 belgian beers imported from belgian and then find 5 domestic belgian beers (ie brewed locally with local ingredients). Try them and tell me what you think.

To answer your question about what to call an acidic red beer brewed in North America .. I believe the style is "american farmhouse".

I think Chimay uses american hops for their bittering charge. Just saying.

I think the important thing is that the esters created by the belgian yeasts are utilized to produce other flavors by the brett. If you bottle a very estery phenolic beer and dose a few bottles with brett something interesting happens. The one beer obviously remains similar, but the bretted bottles change dramatically. I never picked up brett flavors in the bottles I did this with but I noticed a impressive drop in the phenolic character of the beer. So the flavor contribution of the primary yeast is not a huge impact in the final flavor, but the flavors the primary strain made seem to contribute to what brett does in the long secondary.

Embracethefunk said:

Regardless of the primary strain you use, you may want to let the gravity decide when to rack to secondary and not time. After 7 days you maybe fermented so far down you will never get a good sourness. I think between 1.030 and 1.025 is a good time to rack. Some recipes call for .020, but I think thats too low.

Pacman is a beast so again if you decide to use it check your gravity at maybe 3 days. I like to use a low attenuating strain like Wyeast 1968 *if* I actually do intend to transfer and not just ferment everything in primary.

Click to expand...

ryane said:

I would skip the separate clean ale yeast and go directly to using one of the sour blends. They already have sacch in them, and letting the brett/bacteria get a chance at some of the nutrients/easily digestable sugars you get a more sour/funky/complex beer

Click to expand...

passedpawn said:

Just pitch Roeselare right away. No sacc.

Click to expand...

WolvinMaine said:

That being said, you will likely have a very subtle "wild" flavor if you don't pitch the bugs up front.

Click to expand...

Waylit said:

I'd go with a belgian yeast, then transfer to secondary when the gravity is about 1.020. This will leave enough sugars for the bugs to work on. I'd pitch commerical dregs along with brett.

Click to expand...

All this advice is to get a decent amount of sourness in the beer. My thoughts were similar, so I mashed high and will expect the beer to be about 1.020 when I rack later this week.

I just finished listening to Jamil talking to Ron Jeffries on his 'Can You Brew It' shows, and Jeffries say that he uses simple sugars, and mashes low (147 - 149) to get a lot of attenuation, and does not move the beer from the primary to the bugs until the beer is as low as he can get it. This seems the complete opposite to the above advice, and my own thoughts. JP seems to get decently sour.