lack of hop flavor

i cannot get my ipas as flavorful as commercial example no matter what i try. i freeze and vacuum seal all my hops from the harvest. ive done water treatments with gypsum. and my last batch had 12 oz in the boil, mostly if not all at 10 min or later, all with subpar results.

i know my palate is changin and whatnot but i just cant seem to get to the next step. any ideas?

Have you tried moving all of your late additions to flameout and hopstand? I'm getting massive flavor contributions by that alone. The only hops I boil are bittering additions.

not all at flameout no but each flameout addition is at least 4-6 oz...

my last one had 4 oz @10 and 6 oz @ flameout. two stage dry hop with 3 oz each.

have you tried a hopstand? Once I started doing this, I never went back. Using the method below, my IPAs taste fresher than anything commercial I can find on the shelves. I usually do around 8-10oz for the hopstand and only save a few oz for dry hopping. I dont do much boil additions.

For a hopstand (similar to a whirlpool addition in big breweries) you turn off the flame, throw in your 0min hops, and cover the kettle. Don't chill yet. Then you wait a while and let the hop compounds get extracted. For the second hopstand addition, I usually wait till the temperature reaches 180F or so to add them. This ensures nothing is volatized and lost due to high temperature. I wait another 10min and chill it down. This produces so much more hop flavor than any other method of hopping ive tried

m00ps said:

have you tried a hopstand? Once I started doing this, I never went back. Using the method below, my IPAs taste fresher than anything commercial I can find on the shelves. I usually do around 8-10oz for the hopstand and only save a few oz for dry hopping. I dont do much boil additions.

For a hopstand (similar to a whirlpool addition in big breweries) you turn off the flame, throw in your 0min hops, and cover the kettle. Don't chill yet. Then you wait a while and let the hop compounds get extracted. For the second hopstand addition, I usually wait till the temperature reaches 180F or so to add them. This ensures nothing is volatized and lost due to high temperature. I wait another 10min and chill it down. This produces so much more hop flavor than any other method of hopping ive tried

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This is very close to my "method". I throw in my 0 minute, let ot ride down as close to 180 as I have time for, then add my hopstand, and start chilling. Method is in quotation marks because i am nowhere near able to call anything I do a method, yet.

jack_a_roe said:

i cannot get my ipas as flavorful as commercial example no matter what i try. i freeze and vacuum seal all my hops from the harvest. ive done water treatments with gypsum. and my last batch had 12 oz in the boil, mostly if not all at 10 min or later, all with subpar results.

i know my palate is changin and whatnot but i just cant seem to get to the next step. any ideas?

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What hops are you using? Put in your most recent IPA recipe?

i dont have my stuff with me but last batch had nelson, amarillo, simcoe, and mosaic.

ill def try the only flame out and hop stand next time and see where that brings me. split them with what like 4 oz each?

are you doing AG? Add all those late addition hops to the mash. mash hopping bonds the hop oils to the beer itself and you don't lose the flavor or aroma to fermentation. You do lose sharpness of the hops, but make up for it with dry hopping or if you bottle, bottle hop by adding an ounce or two of high hop oil hops to the (hopefully you use DME) priming sugar (essentially making hop tea) at flame off (add hops let stand at least 10 minutes with lid on, pour into bottle bucket through a strainer)

Throwing all those hops into the kettle will cost you several pints of beer.

If kegging, just dry hop the keg with a hop bag.

You said you treat your water with gypsum, but what does your overall water profile look like? If you are just using tap water high in bicarbonate, then your pH could be way off, and you are still dulling the hop potential. If you do use tap water, I would recommend trying the same recipe with RO/distilled water with some gypsum and compare results.

Provide a recipe and describe your process. Are you bottling or kegging? Hop flavour loss can be due to many variants.


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

had the same problem with my IPAs, someone mentioned maybe adding a bit of acid malt to bring the mash pH down

helped with last batch(1.5% of grainbill), but haven't been able to follow up with further testing

it also helped a bit with color. my pales were coming out too dark, at least according to what Beersmith was estimating. that little bit of acidulated brought them closer to what the software said they would be

using spring water, comes in the big 5-gallon returnable bottle at WalMart

Natdavis777 said:

You said you treat your water with gypsum, but what does your overall water profile look like? If you are just using tap water high in bicarbonate, then your pH could be way off, and you are still dulling the hop potential. If you do use tap water, I would recommend trying the same recipe with RO/distilled water with some gypsum and compare results.

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my water has bascially nothing in it with high alkalinity.

everything is under 5 ppm except calcium which is at 18 ppm and the bicarbonate is at 87 ppm

GrogNerd said:

had the same problem with my IPAs, someone mentioned maybe adding a bit of acid malt to bring the mash pH down

helped with last batch(1.5% of grainbill), but haven't been able to follow up with further testing

it also helped a bit with color. my pales were coming out too dark, at least according to what Beersmith was estimating. that little bit of acidulated brought them closer to what the software said they would be

using spring water, comes in the big 5-gallon returnable bottle at WalMart

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what's your water look like? i've been having the same issues with my colors coming out too dark. sounds eerily similar to what i got goin on. was looking into boiling my brew water before brew day to try and reduce some alkalinity but maybe acid malt will be the first adjustment (so much easier).

jack_a_roe said:

my water has bascially nothing in it with high alkalinity.

everything is under 5 ppm except calcium which is at 18 ppm and the bicarbonate is at 87 ppm

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87 ppm is actually a fairly high alkalinity. If you not are using acid to bring the alkalinity down, you do have a too high mash pH. I would suggest a brewing water spreadsheet, and either some phosphoric acid or lactic acid or some acid malt to get your pH to 5.2 to 5.4.

GrogNerd said:

using spring water, comes in the big 5-gallon returnable bottle at WalMart

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jack_a_roe said:

what's your water look like?

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it's RO water, pH 6.5-8.5

Yooper said:

87 ppm is actually a fairly high alkalinity. If you not are using acid to bring the alkalinity down, you do have a too high mash pH. I would suggest a brewing water spreadsheet, and either some phosphoric acid or lactic acid or some acid malt to get your pH to 5.2 to 5.4.

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what's the max amount you can use of acid malt? a 1/2 lb gets me to 5.3 according to brun water.

I commonly use 4-6oz without any noticeable taste impact. Ive seen people even use 1lb and didnt notice much

is that a 5 gal batch?

i'm doing a 2.5 gal ipa recipe so that would give me a full pound in a full batch...still @ just 6% of the grist tho without the sugar addition. maybe i'll back it down a bit for this go round and see how it goes.

yeah 4-6oz for 5gal typically for me. I've used it in IPAs and Saisons mostly

thegreatmaibockaddict said:

are you doing AG? Add all those late addition hops to the mash. mash hopping bonds the hop oils to the beer itself and you don't lose the flavor or aroma to fermentation.

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Don't do this. Mash hopping has been pretty universally panned as a waste of hops in a homebrewing setting. It's also foolhardy to eliminate all your late hops and think you're going to achieve a better hop flavor/aroma character.

You could try first wort hopping instead of the usual 60 minute bittering addition, as it is supposed to do the same thing that thegreatmaibockaddict describes above (bonding the hop oils to other compounds in the wort), but that by itself isn't going to solve the issue of mediocre hop presence in the final beer.

I agree with the general direction that the rest of the comments have taken -- try messing around with your water and mash pH and see if your results improve.

the only time I used it, it was around 2% of total grist and it helped with the hop flavor & the color, but wasn't noticeable.

if I am able to ever getting around to brewing again, I might go to 3 or 4%, 5 max.

I've been trying to get the hop burst for years and I am very close to what I want.
1. Your recipe matters; don't go too malty, I've started adding corn sugar to my IPAs to dry up the flavor to high light the hoppiness
2. Hop selection; I go with three hops with alphas 5%, 10%, and 15%. I boil no more then an oz for 60min but usually 1/2oz and it should be high on the alpha side. Also pellets will give you more hop flavor.
2. The remaining hops at 5min and whirlpool. Make sure to stir at times. If using bags, squeeze them when removing to capture more hop flavor.
3. Yeast; I've had great luck with Dennys and London III
4. Fermentation temp control; keep it low so you don't affect the hop flavors
5. Dry Hop; I remove from temp control at 7 days and dry hop 5 to 7 days making sure to stir the hops 2 times during that period.

Works for me so far...

i have been trying to get more hop flavor and aroma from my brews and i found chilling the wort to about 160*-170* and whirlpooling an ounce or two of hops for 20-60min gives me great aroma and flavor without adding noticeable bitterness.

jack_a_roe said:

is that a 5 gal batch?

i'm doing a 2.5 gal ipa recipe so that would give me a full pound in a full batch...still @ just 6% of the grist tho without the sugar addition. maybe i'll back it down a bit for this go round and see how it goes.

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You are doing 2,5 gal batches and you stated in your OP that you used 12oz of hops in the boil for your last batch. That's a lot of hops for even a 5 gal batch.
Have you considered that you maybe be extracting tannins from your hops and overpowering the flavour?

beerkench said:

You are doing 2,5 gal batches and you stated in your OP that you used 12oz of hops in the boil for your last batch. That's a lot of hops for even a 5 gal batch.
Have you considered that you maybe be extracting tannins from your hops and overpowering the flavour?

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yea i'm all over the place. that was for my last batch and now i'm building up a new one that's 2.5gal. moving to more half batches until i really nail a recipe.

Hi guys, I have the same problem, but it shows up during bottle conditioning.
The sample taken during bottling was great and flavorful.
1 week after the beer was carbonated, still flavorful but a bit hazy and yeasty.
2 weeks after: carbonization was the same but the beer became even more hazy and the more yeasty obscuring the hops.
My previous IPA batches had less flavor/aroma/dry hops, but the problem developed the same way - too yeasty after 2 weeks from bottling, and when the yeast flavor faded after 3-4 weeks the hop flavor also did, and became nothing compared to the flavor/aroma of the sample.
Usual batch is 6 gal.
I use american IPA hops about 3 oz for 10 min, 3-5 oz for whirlpool and the same for dry hop (5 days)
Ferment at 68-78 F (depending on weather) about 15-16 days, then dry hop 5 days, then bottle (no rack to secondary, no cold crash).
Carbonize with corn sugar at same temp in dark place.
Yeast is usually Nottingham (last batch is being fermented with M-44)

Ve1ik said:

Hi guys, I have the same problem, but it shows up during bottle conditioning.
The sample taken during bottling was great and flavorful.
1 week after the beer was carbonated, still flavorful but a bit hazy and yeasty.
2 weeks after: carbonization was the same but the beer became even more hazy and the more yeasty obscuring the hops.
My previous IPA batches had less flavor/aroma/dry hops, but the problem developed the same way - too yeasty after 2 weeks from bottling, and when the yeast flavor faded after 3-4 weeks the hop flavor also did, and became nothing compared to the flavor/aroma of the sample.
Usual batch is 6 gal.
I use american IPA hops about 3 oz for 10 min, 3-5 oz for whirlpool and the same for dry hop (5 days)
Ferment at 68-78 F (depending on weather) about 15-16 days, then dry hop 5 days, then bottle (no rack to secondary, no cold crash).
Carbonize with corn sugar at same temp in dark place.
Yeast is usually Nottingham (last batch is being fermented with M-44)

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I would love to know how Sierra Nevada bottle condition and maintain that hop flavour.

beerkench said:

I would love to know how Sierra Nevada bottle condition and maintain that hop flavour.

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I suppose they filter all yeast fom the beer first, then add specified amount of yeast (a very small amount needed) and primer for carbonation.
Unfortunately I don't have equipment to do something like this.
If that beer is unfiltered, then it can be force-carbed prior to bottling and then conditioned for less time compared to bottle-carbonized beer.

from my understanding commercial breweries filter or centrifuge their offerings which (correct me if i'm wrong) leads to a more stable product, thus creates a hoppier beer down the line.

Commercial breweries like sierra nevada filter via centrifuge, use a hop rocket, and force carb, no yeast needed to carb.

But Sierra Nevada does bottle condition, as does Deschutes.. Deschutes carbonates with fresh wort I've been told, te bottle conditioning results in a much more shelf stable product due to oxygen uptake by the yeast.

jack_a_roe said:

what's the max amount you can use of acid malt? a 1/2 lb gets me to 5.3 according to brun water.

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jack_a_roe said:

is that a 5 gal batch?

i'm doing a 2.5 gal ipa recipe so that would give me a full pound in a full batch...still @ just 6% of the grist tho without the sugar addition. maybe i'll back it down a bit for this go round and see how it goes.

Click to expand...

I just saw this. You want to go no higher than 3% of the grainbill with acid malt. 1/2 pound is a lot- I use a couple of ounces normally.

You could try using phosphoric acid to lower your pH, as that has no flavor impact.

One thing that jumps out at me is that if you are sparging with that water, the alkalinity in it can affect the boil pH as well. I'd suggest lowering the mash pH appropriately, and then sparging with 100% RO water, or acidifying your sparge water as well. I think you'd be much happier with the final product, as the hops will "pop" much more.

im surprised no one brought up oxidation, which degrades hop flavor and aroma like a ma****a. is this lack of hop flavor equal at terminal gravity and in the bottle/keg?
long time creeper, first time commenter.

Hozonedefense said:

im surprised no one brought up oxidation, which degrades hop flavor and aroma like a ma****a.

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I'm just trying to decide which curse word "ma****a" is... :cross:

Ma f u c k a

Ve1ik said:

Hi guys, I have the same problem, but it shows up during bottle conditioning.
The sample taken during bottling was great and flavorful.
1 week after the beer was carbonated, still flavorful but a bit hazy and yeasty.
2 weeks after: carbonization was the same but the beer became even more hazy and the more yeasty obscuring the hops.
My previous IPA batches had less flavor/aroma/dry hops, but the problem developed the same way - too yeasty after 2 weeks from bottling, and when the yeast flavor faded after 3-4 weeks the hop flavor also did, and became nothing compared to the flavor/aroma of the sample.
Usual batch is 6 gal.
I use american IPA hops about 3 oz for 10 min, 3-5 oz for whirlpool and the same for dry hop (5 days)
Ferment at 68-78 F (depending on weather) about 15-16 days, then dry hop 5 days, then bottle (no rack to secondary, no cold crash).
Carbonize with corn sugar at same temp in dark place.
Yeast is usually Nottingham (last batch is being fermented with M-44)

Click to expand...

are you racking to a bottling bucket and batch priming? or are you batch priming in the primary fermenter and then bottling? or are you carbing each bottle but still racking from primary? the only thing i can think of a beer being too yeasty with that long in the fermenter and a highly flocculent strain like nottingham is that you're bottling technique is a little off. aka that you're stirring up the yeast and getting that in your bottles. how thick is the sediment in the bottles? if you have the ability to cold crash, i highly recommend that. i have seen significant improvements on clarity after being able to do that.

joshesmusica said:

are you racking to a bottling bucket and batch priming? or are you batch priming in the primary fermenter and then bottling? or are you carbing each bottle but still racking from primary? the only thing i can think of a beer being too yeasty with that long in the fermenter and a highly flocculent strain like nottingham is that you're bottling technique is a little off. aka that you're stirring up the yeast and getting that in your bottles. how thick is the sediment in the bottles? if you have the ability to cold crash, i highly recommend that. i have seen significant improvements on clarity after being able to do that.

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I bottle from primary fermenter (plastic bucket) with a spigot and a hose. Keeping the end of the hose down to the bottom of bottles to avoid excessive oxidation. Each bottle is injected with a dose of corn sugar syrup. The sediment in the fermеnter is thick, not less than 1 inch. The bucket is aligned a little to keep the sediment away from spigot. But the beer is still never 100% clear during bottling.
Thought about a cold crash, but the 2-week conditioned bottle has no change in haziness and yeastiness after 2 days in the fridge so I doubt if a cold crash can affect that in the fermenter.
Furthermore, the sample from fermenter before bottling has NO yeasty flavor at all, it's great and just needs some carbonation! But after it's been bottled - that's where the problems start.
The priming syrup is boiled, bottles are sanitized with 3% peroxide using vinator (then about 10-20 min neck down on a stand), hose - with peroxide, spigot - with pure alcohol.
As I mentioned above: conditioning time cures theese ills, but the hop aroma is mostly gone by that time. That is the main issue.

why would you use peroxide? I have never heard of that. Peroxide is water with extra oxygen (H2O2)? I would think the peroxide is oxidizing the beer. When you are working with beer you want to minimize contact with oxygen except just prior to fermentation. I only use sanitizer with a bottle brush and then fill the bottles.

deepbluegroove said:

why would you use peroxide? I have never heard of that. Peroxide is water with extra oxygen (H2O2)? I would think the peroxide is oxidizing the beer. When you are working with beer you want to minimize contact with oxygen except just prior to fermentation. I only use sanitizer with a bottle brush and then fill the bottles.

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Unfortunately peroxide is the only no-rinse sanitizer available. I would like to use StarSan instead. I hope that most of the peroxide flows out and evaporates while the bottles are on stand neck down. Local brewers also use a sanitizer based on peracetic acid and peroxide and there are no complaints on resulting beer's flavors. I'm sure my problem is not about the peroxide.

m00ps said:

I commonly use 4-6oz without any noticeable taste impact. Ive seen people even use 1lb and didnt notice much

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My water is 8.0ph, county water run through a carbon filter, I typically use 1lb of acid malt which brings my mash PH down to 5.3. I've used more in my Wits for a tarter flavor. I'm a huge fan of hop additions after the Wort has cooled to 180 degF. As well try to use Hop Shots for bittering.