how do you figure, sports fan?
last i checked e.coli and listeria still make you sick... they can certainly get in beer if you are careless and the conditions are right. beer is not a sanitizer itself, so if its contaminated by something bad, you will be drinking something bad.
E.coli? Man, what else are you using your fermentor bucket for?
Handbook of Brewing
F.G. Priest
Chapter 16: Microbiology & Microbiological Control in the Brewery (start @ page 607) -> http://books.google.com/books?id=tiybndrispec&q=coli#v=onepage&q&f=false
"Beer is micobiologically stable and therefore not subject to the myriad spoilage organisms that can colonize most food or nonalcoholic beverages. It has been subject to exhasutive yeast growth and, therefore, like other fermented foods, it is largely resistant to further microbial development. Ther reasons for this are several:
1: The low ph inhibits most microorganisms
2: The high alcohol concentration is toxic to many microorganisms
3: The antiseptic action of hop alpha-acids is bacteriostatic to many bacteria, particularly gram-positive types
4: Only residual nutrients (...) are available as carbon sources
Despite these factors limiting microbial spoilage, there are various yeasts and bacteria that can flourish in beer, particularly if the storage conditions are poor and oxygen is allowed access. Fortunately, none of these organisms is pathogenic, so the only problem for the brewing microbiologist is consistency of the appearance and organoleptic qualities of the final product."
Enterobacteriaceae:
"...Fortunately, none of the pathogenic types, such as salmonella or shigella species, have been found in beer. the enterobacteria are facultative anerobes able to grow in the presence or absence of air, but they are inhibited by ethanol and low ph so are only responsible for beer spoilage in low alcohol products (<2% by vol) with a relatively high ph (>4.2)."
Mold in beer can hurt you
Bacteria can not
+1 on a lack of harmful bacteria growing in beer. Some bacteria can survive/thrive in beer (notably Acetobacter), but luckily for us nothing harmful. Even if you started with something harmful like E. coli in the bottom of your fermenter bucket, the original colonies would either die, or have their growth restricted (bacteriostatic) and be basically harmless.
Fungul growth in beer is slightly different. While there are no significant causes for concern with mold in beer, the presence of mycotoxins in the starting grain can be a cause for concern. While everyone here seems to be rather convinced that all moulds produce mycotoxins, the truth is that there are only a few fungi that cause harm to humans. The most deadly on is obviously Aspergillus flavus, which produces the incredibly harmful aflatoxin (name comes from Aspergillus FLAvus). This is a common blue/green mould on bread/grains in general. If this infects your starting grain, you will have serious problems (like death!). A NIH funded study into aflatoxin contamination in homemade traditional beer (sorry, can't find the link right now), showed that if the sorghum had significant contamination the levels would be the same in the resulting beer. While the Aspergillus sp. could not grow in the beer, neither could the yeast metabolize the toxins and make them safe for us.
While the thought of mycotoxins in general may be quite dangerous, the first place I would look would not be my homebrew. Peanuts are often found to have aflatoxins from improper storage, so do many other nuts and several grains.
Revvy said:This from Morebeer
Fusarium isn't a mold, it's a fungus;
It isn't created during fermentation, it's a disease that grows in the grain before and during malting;
The fungus is killed during the boil, but some of the mycotoxins already in the grain may partially survive the process;
...Notwithstanding all that, it does sound like Fusarium blight-infected grain is a potential source of toxicity in beer. I didn't see any articles detailing examples or statistics on incidence of toxicity, though. "Dose makes poison" for these sorts of things. Because Fusarium is so common, mycotoxins might always be present, but at concentrations too low to cause any observable effect in most people. Some people are particularly sensitive to mycotoxins and thus develop reactions to doses too low to bother the rest of us. Aspergillus in peanut butter is a well-known example.
So in summation... some grains that make beer may be infected and a specific toxin (mycotoxin) can survive the brewing process to some degree. This doesn't bother most people, but certain people have an allergy to mycotoxins and are sensitive enough to the amounts remaining in the beer to cause them to be unable to drink beer without repercussions.
Sounds like there needs to be a certain levl of sensitivity to fusarium to begin with.
Another thing, Figbash the article you reference happens to be from 1997.
A little more digging shows that 6 years later, on 7- 22-2003,
A team of scientists - including one from Michigan State University - has announced a genomic sequence for the rest of us: mapping the DNA of a grain fungus that wreaks havoc with beer brewing.
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/biowissenschaften_chemie/bericht-20081.html
And in an article published in 2007, titled;
Strategies for managing Fusarium head blight and deoxynivalenol accumulation in wheat
Abstract
Many mycotoxigenic fungi infect plant hosts and cause disease in the field. Therefore, control of field infection by these fungi is a critical step in managing mycotoxin accumulation in the harvested product. Fusarium graminearum, also known as Gibberella zeae, is the causal agent of Fusarium head blight (FHB), or scab, in cereals and is also the primary agent responsible for contamination of grain with deoxynivalenol (DON). Research efforts worldwide are devoted to the development of strategies to control field infection of wheat and barley by this pathogen. Strategies include the use of fungicides and biological control agents to protect flowering heads from infection. There is extensive effort in breeding for host resistance to infection and spread of the pathogen within the heads. Scientists are also seeking exogenous traits to introduce into cereals to enhance resistance. Cultural practices are also being examined, primarily as measures to reduce pathogen survival and inoculum production in crop residues. The successes and limitations of these strategies in the management of Fusarium head blight and deoxynivalenol are discussed.
ScienceDirect - http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=364210a1b4755a2532160d43d68ad531
So the more I read, the less I'm concerned.....it really seems that this is just another case of someone only having one part of the puzzle, and thinking it's the whole.....I appreciate your concern, but,
Since the OP, who this thread is supposed to be about anyway, had a mold pellicule growing on his beer, not a fungus.....this whole discussion really has no relevence to the situation at hand.
Especially in light of the fact, that for all we know (and I haven't looked enough to confirm this) the blight that you so greatly fear, more than likely has been controlled or greatly reduced, and probably did not infect his grain...and if it did it would also more than likely only harm people who were sensitive to mycotoxins...I'm going to go back to the idea that this is nothing more than ignorant (no offense intended we are all ignorant of something) hysteria.
And this whole sidebar, as I have several times said, bares little relevence to our friends tapeworm like mold
Hoosbrewing said:OK, so given my line of work I have access to Medline, which is a database of most scientific and medical journals published since 1955. A quick search for "beer" resulted in ~5000 journal articles. Another search of "pathogen" resulted ~53,000 articles, and a search of "infection" resulted ~600,000 articles. When I crossed beer with either or both of the other search terms, it gave me a total of 60 articles. Most of these were discussing risk factors for contracting HIV and/or hepatitis, or TB. A handful discussed infections in beer causing gushers, and there was the one study looking at levels of mycotoxins in beer. In that study, the levels reported were so low that they had to be verified by another testing apparatus, and there was no mention of what (if anything) the low levels would do to you if you drank them.
What I did not find, however, was any mention of any pathogen that causes harm found in beer.
FWIW.
This thread brought up some really good points. I'm still hanging out with Chicken Little when it comes to MOLDY wert though.
Why, you ask?
The mitigating factors which render wert/beer 'safe' from bacterial contaminates just don't seem to apply as universally to simple Fungi (aka Mold). Some varieties can grow in low or high pH, can tolerate high osmotic pressure, produce stable toxins and doesn't really give a damn about low O2 or difficulty obtaining carbon. This isn't true when considering bacteria like E coli - thank god. But in my estimation, moldy beer really seems to have the possibility of giving you the ****s, make you break out in a rash or maybe cause anaphylactic shock (if you forgot to buy a lottery ticket).
Uncle Sam says: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/molds_on_food/
Esplain' me some science to prove that info wrong and I'll drink a moldy beer to celebrate.
- M
ps. Fusarium is a supply-side issue in materials, not the same as production-side contamination of the final product. Fusarium won't grow in Wert/Beer, so scratch that one off the list.
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