I agree with your dad on the 240v elements. You need a neutral to trip a GFCI and your elements don't have one!
A GFCI will work with out a neutral..... It's all about current in vs current out.
How do you differentiate current in vs out on a 240 circuit since both sides supply current? Many home appliances that use 240 also have 120 components. I've done amperage readings on dryers and there is a difference in current on the leg that has the motor. I can hardly wait for the people that build the GFCI's to get them mandated for all home appliances.
.....crap I totally need to re-build my chiller.
I can slip it in the boilmaker easily but once the elements are in the chiller it will be sitting 2 inches above the wort level. Unless I can some how slip the chiller under the elements too.
Not entirely bad... but not as effecient as it could be.
You're not talking about a 60W light bulb. You're talking about 30+ amps of continuous peak current, which is PLENTY to kill you.
Oh, and I have seen enough misconceptions of electricity in this thread to warn a few of you to not do your own electrical work...
Speaking of misconceptions "30+ amps of continuous peak current"
240v AC (Alternating Current ) goes from 0v to 120v back to 0v then to 120v in the opposite direction or polarity for a total swing of 240v. The current goes up and down with the voltage and the electrons changes the direction of it flows or with the change of voltage polarity.
DC (Direct Current) can offer a continuous peak current.
Or you'd need something like 3 phase AC to be close to a continuous peak current condition.
Since the voltage is rated at RMS saying the current is continuous peak at I RMS is perfectly acceptable...
Speaking of misconceptions "30+ amps of continuous peak current"
240v AC (Alternating Current ) goes from 0v to 120v back to 0v then to 120v in the opposite direction or polarity for a total swing of 240v. The current goes up and down with the voltage and the electrons changes the direction in which they flow as the voltage changes polarity.
DC (Direct Current) can offer a continuous peak current.
Or you'd need something like 3 phase AC to be close to a continuous peak current condition.
Residential electricity is single phase AC.
I could do that.... Think I would be able to roll out the copper tube without weakening or causes kinks? I assume you have to do that to make the CFC
RMS or Root Mean Square is the average electrical power. Current rises and falls as the voltage rises and falls.
It may be considered acceptable but it's factually incorrect.
Interesting situation happened at work, that sorta applies to the Murphy's Law/GFCI thing..
On a job site, a extension cord (we call em stingers) was plugged into a 20amp GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit. A tech mistakely cut the plugged-in extension cord with his linemans pliers. POP! After making sure he was okay, we went to reset the GFCI - but it wasn't tripped. Went to the panel & the 20a breaker was what tripped.
Hmm. The GFCI was wired correctly: wires to panel feed the Line side. GFCI tests fine.
Our theory: as his pliers cut through the 12/3 cord, his cutter first severed the hot & ground first, cutting the neutal after the panel breaker popped. That's our theory, but in any case the GFCI, which is supposed to be sensitive, didn't do anything.
Anyway, moral of the story: Things sometimes don't go the way we want or expect. GFCI's are great things, even if they don't ALWAYS provide protection. Oh, and Murphy's Law is always in effect.
Nobody explained this to you so: GFCI detects a leak of current- They do not protect against short circuits. That is the breakers job. This played out exactly as was supposed to. Your theory maybe correct as the gfci monitors the current between the hot and neutral.
I didn't read through all this but my take on it is that GFCI does work. I had a saltwater reef tank plugged into an external GFCI/extenstion cord. I was hooking up my new lights and the whole thing fell into the tank, my first reaction was to grab it then I realize what I was doing and pulled my hand out. The GFCI popped and I didn't feel a thing so I am a firm believer in GFCI. I did have to buy a new ballast.
You should have a titanium rod in the tank, tied to earth gnd. Maybe you do already.
VHO or MH?
Huh?
If when he had cut the cord and he bridged 110 and neutral ONLY and was 100% insulated the gfci would not have popped but the breaker would have.
Had he made contact with ground and 110 first or if he himself started to conduct current to ground, the gfci would have popped.
When you press the test button on a gfci, it leaks current from the line to ground.
How do you differentiate current in vs out on a 240 circuit since both sides supply current? Many home appliances that use 240 also have 120 components. I've done amperage readings on dryers and there is a difference in current on the leg that has the motor. I can hardly wait for the people that build the GFCI's to get them mandated for all home appliances.
i think in the 2011 nec all standard receps in a kitchen have to be gfci protected
They are now if I recall. SA(small appliance circuits). I don't think they will require GFCI for appliances that do not get unplugged often or ever. It would be hard to pull the stove out and dunk it into the sink. They want to protect people from things like blenders and toaster ovens because they can be moved into wet situations. Microwaves don't need them. Bathrooms do again SA.
Washers/Dryers, Stoves, Hot Water heaters, boilers, and other permanant appliances are usually exempt from the GFCI codes.
I've got a sump that, all of a sudden, is tripping the 20-amp GFCI plug that powers it. Never did it before. It's fine when connected to a non-gfci plug...makes me wonder if there is any harm in connecting it to a non-gfci recepticle. The sump pumps wastewater from my utility sink up 4' to the wastewater pipe in my basement.
I've got a sump that, all of a sudden, is tripping the 20-amp GFCI plug that powers it. Never did it before. It's fine when connected to a non-gfci plug...makes me wonder if there is any harm in connecting it to a non-gfci recepticle. The sump pumps wastewater from my utility sink up 4' to the wastewater pipe in my basement.
I've got a sump that, all of a sudden, is tripping the 20-amp GFCI plug that powers it. Never did it before. It's fine when connected to a non-gfci plug...makes me wonder if there is any harm in connecting it to a non-gfci recepticle. The sump pumps wastewater from my utility sink up 4' to the wastewater pipe in my basement.
gfci's are only meant to protect people, not equipment. you won't harm the pump by putting it on a non-gfci
You won't harm the pump, but GFCIs are required in basements by the NEC, and there is no longer an exception for sump pumps. Personally, I think that this rule is absolutely insane, but code is code. To do it legally, you are going to need a new pump.
You won't harm the pump, but GFCIs are required in basements by the NEC, and there is no longer an exception for sump pumps. Personally, I think that this rule is absolutely insane, but code is code. To do it legally, you are going to need a new pump.
i think in the 2011 nec all standard receps in a kitchen have to be gfci protected
Really, then why is the only legal way to replace old two wire receptacles with three wires is by way of a gfci? There is no ground involved. They monitor the current between ungrounded and grounded conductors. It is amazing how many electricians think the ground is involved. Wouldn't you have to run the ground through the receptacle?
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_gfcis_work/
I didn't erase the above for other peoples benefit.
I just reread what you wrote, I think I may have mis-read it. I thought you were saying that the ground and ungrounded conductor were monitored.
But, I was replacing a switch that was on the load side of a GFCI, I thought the cirucit was off, and while cutting the hot, my strippers were touching the swich and boom, now a #14 hole right in the middle of the cutters on my strippers. GFCI did not trip, breaker did, and after I finished, I used my tester and the GFCI was working correctly??
All I was trying to point out that it is not the GFCI's job to protect against short circuits, at least not at the residential level.
Or a new GFCI. They do go bad too.
yeah i agree it's insane. given the choice between a new ejector pump or an extension cord/non gfci recep, i think most people will end up picking the latter
So YOU were the tech I ruined a brand new pair of klein strippers doing the same thing. I use a voltage wand and/or meter on EVERYTHING now and don't trust what any one says unless my lockout is on the breaker.
Glad you picked up what I was putting down, sorry if I wasn't clear.
The only reason why I could think the gfci didn't break is because you could have shorted neutral and line together. this way the current on the neutral and line would still be balanced. Thats like a 1 in a million shot though.
If it was an AFCI and it didn't trip, then I would be really concerned
Happy to hear you are okay, nothing like playing dr. arc and spark to get you going in the morning.
True.........
Or you could move to WI. We have an exception-sort of. As long as the pump is plugged into a single receptacle, and there is a GFCI within 3 feet, we can go without GFCI.:cross:
I like this thread. If there is one thing to take from it...USE A GFI on your brew rig!
A GFCI device will monitor current leaving the breaker or receptacle and not returning along the proper path (grounded or neutral conductor). If current somehow leaks to ground via another path (through a person for example) the device trips.
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