Chlorophenols

I am having similar problems as outlined in the recent thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/spring-water-chlorophenols-disgusted-115676/

Over the last several brews, I have experienced varying degrees of an awful taste and bad smell that I am describing as the commonly referenced medicinal quality of chlorophenol and a harsh, solventy background smell.

I have been trying to settle in on a house yeast, and chose 1272. The only problem is that every batch I have done with this yeast has had the aforementioned problems. The beers have used different starters from different smack packs. The fermentations have all been done in glycol cooled water baths at 65. Knowing that this yeast is described as clean, but with some English character, I have a hard time believing that it can be pumping out these phenols.

1) But my first question is still, does anyone have a good amount of experience with Wyeast 1272 American Ale II? Did you notice a high production of phenols...maybe a tendency to mutate or did the yeast get stressed easily on slightly underpitching?


I charcoal filter all of my brewing water at a very slow flow rate, extremely slow in fact. I don't use bleach, and I clean with oxyclean and distilled water/star san. My local water supply does use chloramine. I am all glass, stainless, copper, or silicone tubing.

2) What is known about the timing of chlorophenol formation? All of the beers in question tasted fine out of the primary. The bad flavors have all arisen while the beer is being force-carbed.

3) Does this seem more likely to be an infection problem?

4) Does someone have a quick way to reproduce the chloramine smell to use as an example? Otherwise, I was going to ferment some extract with tap water to try and get a good sample.

1.) I'ved it many, many times and never had it throw phenols
2.) chlorophenols come from chlorine. AFAIK, there is no other source. If there's no chlorine, then it seems likely the problem has been misdiagnosed.
3.) it does to me
4.) mix bleach with water?

Denny,
Thanks for the reply.

Do you know if chlorophenols form during the primary or do they arise in a more insipid fashion?

What is your overall impression of 1272? Temp. versus flavor profile?

Cheers.

Denny,
I am particularly wondering how this yeast responds to stress such as underpitching or low O2.
Have you had this occur and did you subsequently notice off flavors that you attributed to the yeast?

#2: Is the filter rated for chloramine removal? I had at one point researched this topic and found that typical activated carbon/charcoal filters were not adequate at stripping the chlorine ions from the chloramine compound. There are filters designed for this but, none I found on the shelves of Lowes/Home Depot/Ace at the time.

At the time of my research, the filter system was barely less aggresive than a home reverse osmosis system and employed at least 3 differing filter stages for complete removal of even trace chloramines.

Campden, or sodium/potassium metabisulfite, does react with chlorine to reduce the chlorine to chloride and liberates the ammonia.

Things may have changed since as it has been a few years from this topic for me but, I speculate that your filter is only removing a minimal amount of the chlorine from the compound and enough passes through to create the chlorophenols you are suspecting.

The presence of the chlorophenols should be detectable in primary as the bond will be forming as the yeast produces the phenols. However, it is common to "overlook" some of these tatses when sampling the green beer until the palate has developed a "memory" of how green beer should taste.

Perhaps, on the next batch you try spring water, or even simpler crush a campden tablet into your HLT and/or mash water. If the medicinal character is gone.....

Thanks Gila,
The filter is rated for chloramine removal, but I may have exhausted its capacity.

Do you know anything about the chlorophenol timing? Is it created slowly or can the chlorophenol be expected to reach its final concentration during primary?

kscomp0 said:

Thanks Gila,
The filter is rated for chloramine removal, but I may have exhausted its capacity.

Do you know anything about the chlorophenol timing? Is it created slowly or can the chlorophenol be expected to reach its final concentration during primary?

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I don't have many resources here and I don't recall ever reading or hearing about the bond formation timing or conditions (pH, temp, moonphase) I did a quick search through Brewing Science and didn;t find what I was looking for.

AFAIK, only conditions needed are the presence of chlorine and phenols. I speculate that since you do have chloramines, then maybe the formation is prolonged as the chlorine +ammonia bond may have to be liberated to form the chlorophenol. Perhaps as the chloramine destabilizes/degrades the bond is broken, the ammonia liberated, and the chlorine+phenol bond created.

Never did take chemistry so, the above is an attempt at logical speculation at best. If correct or even possible, maybe it explains the delay in teh presence and detection. Or perhaps you have a higher taste threshold and need for other characters to clean up before it's detectable.

I forget where but, I once read that the suggested way to imitate chlorophenols in beer is to add Chloraseptic little by little until it is just recognizable I haven't had chloraseptic so. The odor should be reproducable by smelling a band-aide.

" speculate that since you do have chloramines, then maybe the formation is prolonged as the chlorine +ammonia bond may have to be liberated to form the chlorophenol. Perhaps as the chloramine destabilizes/degrades the bond is broken, the ammonia liberated, and the chlorine+phenol bond created."

That makes sense, Gila. I know that chloramines survive the boil.

kscomp0 said:

" speculate that since you do have chloramines, then maybe the formation is prolonged as the chlorine +ammonia bond may have to be liberated to form the chlorophenol. Perhaps as the chloramine destabilizes/degrades the bond is broken, the ammonia liberated, and the chlorine+phenol bond created."

That makes sense, Gila. I know that chloramines survive the boil.

Click to expand...

Great. Now explain it to me.

Perhaps a thread started in the Brew Science forum could further elaborate on the bond process. It seem that many there do actually have a chemistry background or have studied the complex compund formations created/inherent in the process of beer.

I've read some pretty detailed texts on the chemistry of brewing and honestly, only comprehended the preface.

some water treated with a crushed Campden tablet (sodium/potassium metabisulfite) should at least eliminate the chlorine/chloramine question if it solves problem your good to go if not the cause is elsewhere

Chlorophenols? More like BORE-ophenols!

I've been using a cartridge activated carbon filter for my brew water. Previously tested when local tap water was chlorinated with hypochlorites. The filter removed virtually all traces of chlorine.

The local water changed to chloramine and I didn't know it. Subsquentially found that my test strips and my filter were worthless for this form of chlorine. New strips formulated for chloramine confirmed my filter wasn't buying me anything.

Experimented with adding potassium metabisulfite to my brew water. Very small doses of this stuff totally eliminate measurable chlorine from all forms.

I too have been pursuing a medicinal off favor attribute which appearred about the time I started using filtered tap water. I don't know if this recent find will solve the mystery or not but I'm eager to find out.

One thing is for certain. Adding chlorine to my brew as I have been cannot be a good thing.

Food for thought:

Here's what Noonan has to say about medicinal flavors:

From wild yeast or bacteria; chlorine in the ferment; plastic contamination; excess of phenolic material from oversparging or weak wort boil. Accentuated by high fermentation temperatures.

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Also, Fix discusses a non-chlorine phenol that results in a medicinal flavor... 4-vinyl guaiacol. This is produced when yeast metabolize ferulic acid, a minor wort compound. Lager yeasts can't metabolize ferulic acid, so you won't find it in lagers. Bavarian wheat beer yeasts are very good at metabolizing it, producing the clove flavors. But at smaller concentrations and in non-Bavarian wheat ales, this may taste medicinal.

So, if you're confident you're getting the chloramines out, your next steps are ensuring you're not oversparging or getting too much phenols into your kettle (for batch sparging)... this means a good clear wort into the kettle, a good boil, good fermentation temps, and ruling out wild yeast/bacteria.

Just for kicks, try getting some Reverse Osmosis (RO) water for your next brew day. There is a local fish/pet store around here that sells it for about $2-3 for 5 gallons. Don't add anything to your water, and brew up a simple and light brew so you can easily detect the off taste if it occurs. If the culprit is your tap water, you shouldn't get the off taste. If it's an infection somewhere in your brewery, the taste will still be there.

Good luck!

Thanks for the help, guys.