The Extract "twang" - what is it?

Yakima 728
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TurboBrew said:
http://www.aahrpp.org/www.aspx -
But seriously, forums lack the crucial fact checking that a published research work has.
Click to expand...

Definitely. I don't know how many times I've seen a hobby board take some sort of comment like "I mean, theoretically, if you do Y, X could happen", and it gets repeated and twisted and repeated, till its finally "DON'T DO Y BECAUSE X WILL HAPPEN" when no one has actually ever run into the issue.
 
As I've posted before, I don't think there is any such thing as
"extract twang". I've brewed great beer with new and old liquid
malt extract with no problems. Imo if you can't brew a great beer
with two cans of malt extract and some hops, you are doing something
else wrong. The only way old extract could possibly be a problem
is if you are trying to brew a Bud clone with 12 IBU, then you might
be able to taste something. I've brewed porter with 3 year old
cans of LME stored at room temp and I couldn't taste anything
odd or bad.

Ray
 
Old extract will develop a cidery taste. Extract in metal cans will develop a metallic taste. It is time and metals fault that you taste something you call "extract twang". If the extract is fresh and from bulk you will not have that problem. It is not the extract's fault.

If you do an all grain batch incorrectly the beer will have a lot of tannins. The astringency because of the tannins shall be called "All-Grain twang" from this point forward.

Forrest
 
So if the twang of LME is in part due to it being canned, if you use a plastic jug of the stuff would that (theoretically) reduce the possibility for extract twang?

I just brewed a batch with LME last night and now I'm concerned for the wellbeing of my beer.
 
Since the word "twang" itself has a wide range of meanings...

*****
ref dictionary.com

Definition: odor and taste
Synonyms: acidity, aroma, astringency, bitterness, essence, extract, gusto, hotness, piquancy, pungency, relish, saltiness, sapidity, sapor, savor, seasoning, smack, sourness, spiciness, sweetness, tang, tartness, twang, vim, wallop,
*****

...it is easy to see how this term has become the whipping boy for whatever taste/flavor (actual or perceived) by anyone who finds something unwanted in his/her brew.

Many tastes, many explanations, and yet it has been only extract brewing/brewers who take the rap, and further, it gets pinned on malt extract, and beyond that even LME over DME!!!!!

Come on now....

;)

The jig is up--there is no "twang."
 
gunnyg said:
since the word "twang" itself has a wide range of meanings...

*****
ref dictionary.com

definition: Odor and taste
synonyms: Acidity, aroma, astringency, bitterness, essence, extract, gusto, hotness, piquancy, pungency, relish, saltiness, sapidity, sapor, savor, seasoning, smack, sourness, spiciness, sweetness, tang, tartness, twang, vim, wallop,
*****

...it is easy to see how this term has become the whipping boy for whatever taste/flavor (actual or perceived) by anyone who finds something unwanted in his/her brew.

Many tastes, many explanations, and yet it has been only extract brewing/brewers who take the rap, and further, it gets pinned on malt extract, and beyond that even lme over dme!!!!!

Come on now....

;)

the jig is up--there is no "twang."
Click to expand...

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000
 
In my brews I noticed the TWANG more with dark beers, and it seemed to be a PH problem.

Adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), a tbsp or so (varying depending on your water and how much dark grain is used) has fixed this problem.

BYO had an article explaining that the base grains used for AG somehow fix the PH of dark beers, where as DME or LME do not.
 
Gunny... Now if people can narrow it down to LME and for the most part specify that it is only present with the canned crap, how can you possibly discount that? Is it because you never personally tasted it? Do you extract brew? Do you make lighter brews or heavier brews like stouts? Have you tried different brewing methods? And no offense, although Revvy is an experienced brewer, this is the same guy who brewed with old corn chips...I think his tounge is fried. :)
 
Has anyone heard the one about adding one drop of olive oil to your wort just before fermentation?
 
Revvy said:
There's about a million threads on here about it already. It's been done to death. All you have to do is search olive oil aeration and you'll find them.
Click to expand...

I found that thesis you mentioned in one of the old threads and read quite a bit of the commentary. I would have to agree with you Revvy that it wouldn't be practical for a home brewer nor is there even enough data to suggest any real benefit.
 
I never had heard of the one drop olive oil thing till a couple years ago--figured it for just another sea story!

I am an extract brewer, +steeped grains, and I had always used dry yeast till that time (two or so years ago) and so I started trying the OO trick--in fact, I still have the same toothpick
. ;)

After adding the yeast it had always taken several hours b4 I noticed any fermenting taking place.
The first time I tried the OO I was amazed--the wort was strongly fermenting within an hour or so--no lie.

Why? I dunno.
Maybe...the oo provides a thin film over the surface of the wort and traps air from escaping...
I dunno.

Someone on this thread just mentioned add baking soda to the wort to remedy "twang."

I may try that too--what can one lose?
;)

Dick G
*****
 
BigB said:
Gunny... Now if people can narrow it down to LME and for the most part specify that it is only present with the canned crap, how can you possibly discount that? Is it because you never personally tasted it? Do you extract brew? Do you make lighter brews or heavier brews like stouts? Have you tried different brewing methods? And no offense, although Revvy is an experienced brewer, this is the same guy who brewed with old corn chips...I think his tounge is fried. :)
Click to expand...

BB: I have had the same "twang" issue, and when I use LME it comes from a plastic jug (HDPE). I think Cheezy has the issue nailed with pH being the root cause. I wouldn't add sodium bicarb because it's prone to adding a salty note, but potassium carbonate or calcium carbonate would be good substitutes.
 
GNBrews said:
BB: I have had the same "twang" issue, and when I use LME it comes from a plastic jug (HDPE). I think Cheezy has the issue nailed with pH being the root cause. I wouldn't add sodium bicarb because it's prone to adding a salty note, but potassium carbonate or calcium carbonate would be good substitutes.
Click to expand...

What I meant by "canned" was the prepackaged stuff. Now, I must admit that I cannot say that I have ever tasted twang from the fresh stuff you can buy in bulk from many LHBS's (mine only sells the prepackaged stuff). But I have tasted in batches that are made from plastic jars (Breiss I think) and the metal cans (Mutons?). I have tasted it in EVERY beer I have ever had that someone (not just me) has made using LME. Maybe I am hypersensitive to LME, who knows. What I do know is that I NEVER taste it in beers that don't have LME in them. Now do I know the science behind it? No. Is it possible that maybe LME reacts differently to our local water profile and it gives me that off taste (which btw does not fit neatly into any off flavor category)? Maybe. I simply don't know what causes that flavor. Also, my point was that so many people perceive the twang and they always seem to say they taste it in beers made with prepackaged LME, that it is not possibly a myth. I do like the theory that the taste may be caused by acidity though... that seems like the most reasonable explanation yet. I resolved the problem by switching to DME, Partial Mashes with DME, and all grain... No more twang. EDIT: On second thought, maybe what I perceive as twang is more of a subtle "cidery" flavor as the guy or gal from AHBS mentioned. Also to be fair, I don't know how fast my LHBS moves the LME... The customers are by far primarily all grain brewers or DME brewers with specialty grains.
 
Twang just 'taint!

'Taint this, 'Taint that! 'Taint even anything even in-between--we'll prolly never know fer sure...

;)
 
BigB said:
Gunny... Now if people can narrow it down to LME and for the most part specify that it is only present with the canned crap, how can you possibly discount that?
Click to expand...

Easy. What "people" are saying this? Someone wants to rationalize the
big money they put into their all-grain equipment by saying that their
beer is better than extract beer. The next thing you know every off-flavor
is being attributed to LME. Without experienced taste testers in
a double-blind tasting, the anecdotal claims are worthless. If you can't
make a great beer with two cans of malt extract and hops, you are
doing something wrong, and it's not the extract. Imo, the vast majority
of off-flavors in extract beers are due to the technique of inexperienced
brewers, not the LME.

Ray
 
Yep!

(The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.)
Yep!
Yep!
Yep!
 
rayg said:
If you can't
make a great beer with two cans of malt extract and hops, you are
doing something wrong, and it's not the extract. Imo, the vast majority
of off-flavors in extract beers are due to the technique of inexperienced
brewers, not the LME.

Ray
Click to expand...

Yesireebob!!! I've been saying that for years. :mug:
 
GNBrews said:
BB: I have had the same "twang" issue, and when I use LME it comes from a plastic jug (HDPE). I think Cheezy has the issue nailed with pH being the root cause. I wouldn't add sodium bicarb because it's prone to adding a salty note, but potassium carbonate or calcium carbonate would be good substitutes.
Click to expand...

Old canned extract has a metallic cidery taste. Old extract has a cidery taste. Both are referred to as twang.

Keep this in mind, extract from another country, lets say England is manufactured then it is sent by slow boat for 6 months to America. Then it is at the distributor for another month or 2. Then it is at a store for a few months. So, by the time you use it it is a year old. The extract has a life of 18 months before is starts to head slowly in the wrong direction.

Also, keep in mind that DME is made from LME. DME doesn't age as fast.

We order extract from the US and it is a month or 2 old by the time we receive it. We also sell over 150,000 pound a year so it is fresh.

Forrest
 
While a little deuchilly said, rayg is right.

It is when you steep specialty grains ESPECIALLY DARK ONES.......that you need a ph adjustment or the beer will be too acidic.

No amount of technique or attention to each minute detail will make it less acidic.
 
Synovia said:
No, hes partially right. He keeps ignoring the fact that OLD extract does cause problems.
Click to expand...


I haven't experienced the old LME thing, I don't use it. It is strictly pale or extra pale DME that I use. No problems in my pale brews, only Dark.

PH fixed those. (as long as I remember)
 
rayg said:
Easy. What "people" are saying this? Someone wants to rationalize the
big money they put into their all-grain equipment by saying that their
beer is better than extract beer. The next thing you know every off-flavor
is being attributed to LME. Without experienced taste testers in
a double-blind tasting, the anecdotal claims are worthless. If you can't
make a great beer with two cans of malt extract and hops, you are
doing something wrong, and it's not the extract. Imo, the vast majority
of off-flavors in extract beers are due to the technique of inexperienced
brewers, not the LME.

Ray
Click to expand...

Did you ever consider the possibility that you can't tell a good beer from a bad one? And yet again you people completely ignore the specificity/narrowing of the issue. I would agree that making a beer out of two cans of extract should be the easiest way to make a beer. But what you ignore is that if people can make a good beer without the off flavor in NON-LME beers (which by the way infers by your own logic would be harder) then they should be able to make a great beer (without the off flavor) with LME. Oh and give up the whole sensationalistic crap about people saying all grain is better than extract. I didn't say that and it is simply a perverse way of trying to deflect the discussion at hand. The discussion is about LME... don't forget that DME is also extract.
 
To me, LME differs from DME by the obvious. Moisture.

Dried sealed peppers will last forever. sealed fresh peppers will rot in a week.

Not the same thing, but my point is, most microbes go dormant in a completely dry environment. Effectively stopping spoilage.

Most chemical reactions, however slow, also require the presence of moisture.

I would bet my life that LME deteriorates exponentially faster than DME.

On the other hand fresh herbs yield waaaay better flavors than dried.

I submit that, of extracts, LME can be better than DME if really fresh, or worse than DME if not.
 
wow - i'll have to read this whole thread again, interesting one.

my 100% pure guess: there is a preservative chemical added or bonded to the extract from the malter that keeps it from fermenting/spoiling. (we spend all this effort to keep sugary things free of organisms, why wouldn't they? shouldn't even 'fresh' extract show some early signs of early fermentation if it isn't adulterated?) when boiled/fermented in beer, it doesn't break down completely. = twang

*prepares for ambush by beerfags*
 
Waaaay back...in the '40s, I think...the Mills Brothers had a hit record about this... called the "t-wang t-wang blues"...
 
I do a lot of LME brewing. Never noticed a "twang" that I can think of. That being said, I usually use my LME within a day of buying it at the LHBS that turns over quite a bit of extract weekly.

This year, I had a big delay in brewing and did not brew a batch that I had ingredients sitting around for 3 months (including LME). For those of you that believe the "twang" comes from old LME, is 3 months too long to have the LME sitting around, or are we talking about the 18 months that AustinHomebrew talks about?

This LME was stored air tight at room temperature and there were no furry things growing on it when I opened the container.
 
v66uy8.gif


In Search of Twang:
What is it?
What is its cause?
*****
 
Since I am an Extract Brewer, I may as well just begin to call all my brews simply "Twang Ale" (since the custom is to name our brews!). And I have no intention of "progressing" to ag!

;)

Just Plain Dick
**********
 
SkiGladys said:
I do a lot of LME brewing. Never noticed a "twang" that I can think of. That being said, I usually use my LME within a day of buying it at the LHBS that turns over quite a bit of extract weekly.

This year, I had a big delay in brewing and did not brew a batch that I had ingredients sitting around for 3 months (including LME). For those of you that believe the "twang" comes from old LME, is 3 months too long to have the LME sitting around, or are we talking about the 18 months that AustinHomebrew talks about?

This LME was stored air tight at room temperature and there were no furry things growing on it when I opened the container.
Click to expand...

I don't think you even have to worry about 18 months. I used 3 year
old liquid extract with no problem.

There seems to be some strange idea that LME is some kind of artificial
extract, or something, that's causing people to attribute all sorts of
bad properties to it. It's the same thing you get out of an all grain mash.
It's already been boiled once, so boiling it more may give you a little more
darkening, and the associated flavor change, *if* you can detect it (which
I would say is only possible if you are trying to make a BMC clone).

There are only two things that can happen to old extract:
1) It spoils, which takes a LONG time and which you would notice when
you open the can.
2) It darkens some more. The extract is basically cooking slowly in
the can at room temp, so it may darken, but hardly at all if you keep
it in the fridge at 40 degrees.

Ray
 
i always find this argument funny. Full mashing allows a brewer to control the ferment-ability of the wort. This does not exist with extract. It also represents a gigantic leap forward in the knowledge and practice of brewing, and creating a brewing system.

So hate all you want on the all grain brewers. But my beers went from good to phenomenal when i switched from extract to All grain. There is no comparison. Im not saying you cant make extract work for you, im just saying that our beer has improved considerably since taking the mash into our own hands. It's also more fun.

anybody can put a powder mix into some water, boil it and ferment it. But it takes a little more skill to control mash temps to get a desired result and construct the system to do so.
 

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