my own diacetyl and oxidation - in 2 beers!

Wow, so I'm the type of person who needs to make mistakes before I really believe in the causes/warnings people give. Last night I tasted diacetyl in my pale ale that fermented for only 7 days in the primary cuz I was so hurried to get it to dry hops. My ferm temps were okay, right around 69 and steady and sanitation was good as far as I could tell. I'm guessing the diacetyl came from pulling it off the yeast early or not oxygenating enough (I shake but during chilling I use an aerator attachment thingy). Also, I had another pale ale that I bottled using the biermuncher-style homemade bottler that smelled like cardboard and tasted like paper - it was still okay but had gone downhill. I'm guessing this one was oxidized due to my amateur bottling abilities and method. I've used this bottling technique some and it works well in the short term but this beer had been bottled for almost 2 months.

So, do y'all think oxygenating my fermenter, fermenting 14 days, and either being more careful during bottling or getting a counterpressure filler would be my solutions?


cb

do a search on hot side aeration. I dont believe in it personally but some people think that if you aerate while the wort is hot it will have off flavors. What yeast did you use? i always let my beer sit in primary for atleast a week if not 10 days. Do a hydrometer test to make sure its atttenuated all the way and you shouldnt have problems. i dont oxygenate as well as i should and i have yet to have a problem with attenuation. I would deffinitly suggest using a starter because it will help if your sanatation has lapsed...its essentially a competetive infection of yeast whch will beat out any microbes you didint kill off with sanatizer.

Yeah, I stirred a bit during chilling with the ic but I don't think i got hot side. I used safale US 05 11g per 5 gallons so assuming it was good (I only rehydrated) it wasn't underpitched but yeast could have been lousy although I doubt it. Gravity was at 1.011 for the last couple of days, pretty sure it was fully attenuated. I'm going to start another thread about that topic right now.


cb

ide say thats fully attenuated. check out this thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/safale-us-05-attenuation-52146/

otherwise i would make sure your yeast flocculates fully before racking to secondary so you get less yeast in suspension and less risk of off byproducts.

thanks for that link scinderd. I've been experimenting using dry yeast again after many batches of liquid only. I've focused primarily on US 05 and am getting to know it well. Next I'm going to start splitting batches between US 05 and WL 001.

I've heard that a tsp of Ascorbic Acid during bottling can help oxidation issues, but have never tried it. Maybe someone knows more or why this helps, but a thought.

mandoman said:

thanks for that link scinderd. I've been experimenting using dry yeast again after many batches of liquid only. I've focused primarily on US 05 and am getting to know it well. Next I'm going to start splitting batches between US 05 and WL 001.

Click to expand...

theres nothing wrong with dry yeasts whatsoever. I have migrated to liquid to get more specialized strains but i still brew occasionally with safale or nottingham. They will turn out just fine. I love WLP001.....works with pretty much anything.

As for your oxidation issues i was thinking alot about it, what kind of caps are you using and are you sanatizing them? I use oxygen absorbing caps because i tend to store beer for a while which could help you if its actually oxidation problems: Austin Homebrew Supply

Are you fully confident in your sanatation? what you percieve as diacytal could be from an infection...my brew club had someone come in once with a "butterscotch" beer full of diactyal and it ended up he had infected his batch

I'm still a huge dry yeast fan, don't get me wrong.

I'm not absolutely sure of my sanitation - although I try to be very careful.

With respect to bottling, this was my first attempt at the bottling from the keg thing and I think I didn't let the co2 foam rise enough and capped too early. I'm going to try inverting and resting before capping next time like biermuncher suggests in his 'we don't need no stinkin' beergun' thread. I will also try oxygen absorbing caps next time which I didn't use this time.

Tried a porter I also bottled during the same initial run last night and it, too, was cardboardy.

I'm pretty sure I'm also fermenting around 72-74 which may be a little high. I'm going to try in the mid to hi 60s now as I have found a spot in my basement that says 65 ish all the time.

Always somethin!

get a rubbermaid container and water bath with a wet t-shirt and it works perfectly. It keeps my carboy about 5-10 degrees below ambient temp if not more. Ive accidentally gotten it down to around 45 using 2 little bottles which i freeze and drop into the water.


As for your sanatation. Get a garden sprayer at home depot and fill it with starsan/water mix and just make sure you spray everything down. Im betting its your sanatation because it deffinitly shouldnt taste like cardboard. You do all grain or extract?

all grain. And just to be sure, the cardboard only comes from the first time I bottled using the biermuncher method off my keg - the beer in the keg didn't taste like cardboard, of course it didn't age that long before it was consumed. I have never tasted the cardboard except in the bottles from the keg - first round that were in the bottles for 1-2 months.

I've used the "poor man's counterpressure filler" as well and had no problems. I fill the bottles almost to the top and always make sure there is foam overflow that I'm capping on - the small blanket of C02 evolved as the beer equalizes pressure with the atmosphere should push out all the air.

You are sanitizing your caps and bottles, right?

yes to the bottles and caps sanitation. I'm tellin' you, I was messy somehow and oxygenated it. Thinking back on it I can imagine how I capped some air/oxygen in it. I filled to the top with maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inch foam, held a cap on it immediately and crimped it. I went back and watched bobby m's video again and read biermuncher's comment about waiting for the co2 to dissipate a bit after holding the cap and inverting and that makes sense now. Incidentally, I've never tasted the cardboard before (or the diacetyl) but I knew what it/they was/were when I did. My wife tasted it too and her palate is way better than mine.

Funny thing, I accidentally tried the diacetyl APA again tonight after a couple of days and guess, what, no diacetyl. Maybe barely just a hint but I mean barely. Now that I know what it tastes like I can detect smaller amounts. Hmmmmmmm.

I say accidentally as I'm now drowning in kegs. this thing has gotten away from me - I didn't think I'd need to label the kegs to remember what was where. I have 7 kegs of beer in the cheezer (2 are the same, only 6 kinds) but can only hook up 3.

The APA is crazy. No ugly sweetness, just smooth hop bitterness with a nice light aroma and flavor. It's still young and a bit hazy but I'll take it. It's Jamil's from award winning beers and I was going to be pissed if I had f'ed it up.

Now on to the manifold.

id say how ever long your leaving them in primary, leave for a few more days. As for the bottle capping, i use a cheap bottle filler:


i have a bucket of caps in sanatizer and all the bottles are filled with starsan. i dump them and i fill and set the caps on as i go....when im all done i go back with a capper and cap. Ive never had issues and i dont do anything fancy