Does anyone step or fly mash anymore ? Acid rest ? Old schoo

I am retrofitting my brewing setup and trying to make some equipment decisions. Mostly about whether to use a HERMS.

But the more I read, the more I wonder if its even necessary. It seems like "everyone" does single temperature batch mashes in a cooler ! Who needs this HERMS stuff ?

But here is what I don't get. I am a lager and wheat beer guy. My bible is Dave Miller's "The Complete Handbook Of Home Brewing". All of Dave's lager and wheat beer recipes use step mashes with an acid rest in the 128F area before boosting to 150 something, before boosting to mash out temps.

Do people not do this for lager beers anymore ? Is that old school thinking ? Does anyone acid rest anymore ? Are the beers as good if you don't ?

I understand that some people infuse a lot of water to boost temps for say, mash out. Doesn't the mash get pretty thin and doesn't that put a lot of tannin into the wort ?

Do infusions and batch spargings work as well for lager beers as HERMS and fly sparging ?

Thanks.

brewman ! said:

Does anyone acid rest anymore ?
Thanks.

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According to Palmers guide, he basically says that it is not necessary to a lot of people because the understanding of water chemistry has come a long way. In other words people are changing their pH via. chemical intervention rather than the acid rest.

people are changing their pH via. chemical intervention rather than the acid rest.

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Could you tell me more ?

Say I am brewing a light pilsner, say 4.5% and I'm using pretty much straight 2 row. How do I mash and sparge it ?

Dave says 7.5 pounds of grain, 11 quarts of mash water. Hold at 131 for 30 minutes, then 2hours at 150, letting it drop to 141, then mash out at 168 for 5 minutes. Sparge water is 5 gallons at pH 5.7 at 168F.

That recipe came from Dave's book, the first version, page 199.

How does one brew this with a cooler and batch sparging and is it as good ?

I'm not certain when the first edition was printed, but my 1995 copy has no acid rests in it. Miller just says, "Unnecessary with today's malts. Only a few traditionalists still use it." and "Single step infusions are all that is needed."

And yet if you look at Palmer's lager recipes, most of them use multi step mashes. I think lagers need more temp control that ales.

http://howtobrew.com/section4/chapter19-4.html

128F is a protein rest, not an acid rest. An acid rest occurs around 105F.

I saw a noticeable improvement in the flavor of my Hefeweizen when I included an acid rest. However, in this case it's not just for the lowering of the mash pH but also for the generation of ferulic acid which is a precursor of some of the unique flavors in a Hefeweizen.

I agree that the classical acid rest is obsolete with most modern malts. Even the less modified ones. I may still do it for other reasons. 1st it's a good starting point for a heavily decocted beer since the enzymes get a better chance to dissolve in the wort and are better protected against the heat that will come. It also is a rest where not much is going on (little protein or starch conversion) which is good when having to rest there a long time due to an ongoing decoction. The Baron already pointed out the increased ferulic acid production which is great for wheats if you like the phenolic character.

Protein rests are more important, but you have to watch out that you don't do to much here. I don't think that there is much need for a protein rest with American or British 2-row and the styles brewed with these beers don't need it either. But for German styles I always make a protein rest when using German malts. Lot's of the mouth feel in German lagers is coming from protein and not from dextrines. The enzymes that convert the proteins are actually similar to the amylases in that they will produce more short chained proteins (amino acids - compare to maltose for the amylase rests) at lower temps (122F) and more medium chained proteins (compare to dextrines for the amylases) at higher temps (133F). The former are necessary yeast food and the latter are good for head retention. The problem is that unlike the starches, proteins may have already been converted enough and that you don't want to do a low temp protein rest.

I currently use a 2 step infusion mash with deoction mash-out for mashing German malts. Protein rest at 53C with about 2.5 L/kg (~1.25 qts/lb) water to grist ratio. I add boiling water to get me to 65-66 *C and 3.8 L/Kg (~1.9 qts/lb) for starch conversion and mash out at 75 *C with a thin decoction that I boil for only 1-3 min. The latter is a technological necessity since I only have a 5gal cooler and I cannot add water for a mash-out. Thin mashes are actually preferred for more delicate beers since you will get more of the desirable first wort. This will actually lead to less tannins in the beer that having a tick mash and being forced to sparge more.

But I also doubt that HERMS systems are well suited for step mashes. To me they seems great for keeping the temp for a single infusion constant and maybe rising the temp to mash-out, but lack the mixing capabilities for a step mash. When using a HERMS/RMS I would actually reverse the flow and increase the flow rate to cause turbulences in the mash-tun. During the mash-out rest I would reverse the flow to set the grain bed and clarify the wort.

I'm keeping up with the German home brewing scene and have yet to see a HERMS/RMS system like American home brewers use it. This may have to do with the different brewing background that both cultures have. Mixing the mash during mashing seems to be very important to German brewers and some are even wondering how mashing in a cooler with just one rest can actually work.

Kai

brewman ! said:

I am retrofitting my brewing setup and trying to make some equipment decisions. Mostly about whether to use a HERMS.

But the more I read, the more I wonder if its even necessary. It seems like "everyone" does single temperature batch mashes in a cooler ! Who needs this HERMS stuff ?

But here is what I don't get. I am a lager and wheat beer guy. My bible is Dave Miller's "The Complete Handbook Of Home Brewing". All of Dave's lager and wheat beer recipes use step mashes with an acid rest in the 128F area before boosting to 150 something, before boosting to mash out temps.

Do people not do this for lager beers anymore ? Is that old school thinking ? Does anyone acid rest anymore ? Are the beers as good if you don't ?

I understand that some people infuse a lot of water to boost temps for say, mash out. Doesn't the mash get pretty thin and doesn't that put a lot of tannin into the wort ?

Do infusions and batch spargings work as well for lager beers as HERMS and fly sparging ?

Thanks.

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OK, I'll take a stab at it...Yes.

Kaiser: you and I are on the same page on this stuff. See my posts about using a heatstick and stirring to accomplish these multiple step mashes.

Listen to Kaiser for the brew-chem lecture.

For what it's worth, I have a HERMS, fly sparge, and I love it. It's how I was showed to AG brew, it makes sense to me, and my efficiency climbs with every new brew. Certainly a single infusion mash is adequate for almost all cases with well modified malts, but I like the flexibility the HERMS provides in maintaining a constant temperature as well as the ability to raise it as I desire.

brewman ! said:

I am retrofitting my brewing setup and trying to make some equipment decisions. Mostly about whether to use a HERMS.

But the more I read, the more I wonder if its even necessary. It seems like "everyone" does single temperature batch mashes in a cooler ! Who needs this HERMS stuff ?

Click to expand...

Nobody "needs" a HERMS system. I use one and I love it. I tend to do single temperature infusion mashes with mine and the HERMS maintains the temperature of the mash faultlessly. Then I dial in the mash out temperature after 90 minutes and the system raises the temperature without the need to add more water.

This is all great but the real benefit of the HERMS to me over using a cooler is the clarity of the wort that ends up in the boiler.

I brewed some great beers with my cooler mash tun but I am more confident that I'm hitting my numbers with the HERMS system.


/Phil.

I also use a HERMS system, and I like the control over the temp it gives. That said, I also do step mashes very frequently, especially with wheat beers, or beer that needs a good protein rest. I have never done an acid rest. I have done double infusions for this purpose, as well as decoctions, and I have used the HERMS to accomplish the steps as well. It just depends on the style I'm producing.

In theory, couldn't you add more hot liquor to your mash to hit your second infusion temp and then set the HERMS to maintain that warmer temp... so you don't have to worry as much about the slow rise in temp? Just like a regular ol' double infusion, but your HERMS keeps the temps constant?

Does that make sense at all? I'll have another brew and read it again to make sure

texasgeorge said:

but your HERMS keeps the temps constant?

Does that make sense at all? I'll have another brew and read it again to make sure

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Yup! You heat the water in the HLT to the target mash temp, then recirculate to maintain that temp. If/when you want to raise your mash temp, you apply heat to the HLT until you're at the next step temp and heat the mash via recirculation. Step mashes are slow but effective this way.

Certainly you could add more hot water to raise the temp, but if your rig is anything like mine, the mash tun winds up pretty full right from the start. I'd like to try a decoction mash sometime just to see the difference in techniques.

Yuri_Rage said:

Yup! You heat the water in the HLT to the target mash temp, then recirculate to maintain that temp. If/when you want to raise your mash temp, you apply heat to the HLT until you're at the next step temp and heat the mash via recirculation. Step mashes are slow but effective this way.

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Precisely.

Steps can take awhile, but it does work, and it is efficient.

Disclaimer: I have never used a HERMS or seen one used for that matter, but have read the theory behind their workings.

Yuri_Rage said:

Step mashes are slow but effective this way.

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I thought I read somewhere of the exact opposite. Because they are slow at heating up the wort, it is actually less effective than adding more hot liquor and getting to your next "step" faster. I don't personally see the difference besides taking longer, and you never have to worry about overshooting your temp, that's for sure.

And if you step your mashes in this fashion, do you also do this for your mashout, or do you actually add hot liquor for that.... or does anyone even worry about mashing out at all? One of these decades, I'm going to be a master of homebrew. Until then I ramble my thoughts to y'all.

texasgeorge said:

And if you step your mashes in this fashion, do you also do this for your mashout, or do you actually add hot liquor for that.... or does anyone even worry about mashing out at all? One of these decades, I'm going to be a master of homebrew. Until then I ramble my thoughts to y'all.

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I mash out - not because I like to stop enzyme action, but because I like to thin the mash before sparging. A less viscous mash tends to be more efficient, according to everything I've read, so I mash out at 168-170, and my sparge water tends to be 170-180.

I also mash out, but I do it utilizing my HERMS and by heating my mash tun.

Heating the mash tun speeds things up a bit, and everyone knows that doctors are impatient. :cross: