Efficiency Help

Trying to increase my brew efficiency and need some suggestions. I am currently only getting 55-65%. I have my mill set to the credit card width (.30 I think). I use the How To Brew equation of 1 gallon of water to every 2 gallons of grain on the bill to mash with. Then I batch sparge with equal or a gallon less of water. I mash at 152 and sparge at 175. That is the temp after being added to the grain. I take all the mash to the boil kettle and only take enough sparge to the kettle to get me to 6.5 gallons. I have exactly 5 gallons after boil. What are your thoughts?

For starters, grain is usually measured by the pound, so I am confused by your ratio. I can only assume you mean 1 gallon of water for 2 pounds of grain which would be 2 quarts per pound of grain (
The usual ratio is between 1 to 2 QUARTS per pound of grain and the closer to 2q/#, the "thinner" your mash is and efficiency can suffer.

Now that we have addressed the mash ratio issue, we can address the sparging issue.
I think you are sparging with TOO much water and TOO hot!
The usual method is to mash and collect and measure your first runnings.
Since the grain has absorbed all the water that it is capable of, all sparge water put in will in theory come back out.
So, subtract the volume of your first runnings from your total pre-boil volume and that is the amount of water that you sparge with.
I personally split my sparge water into 2 equal additions.

For example:
10# grain bill
13.3 quarts of mash water (3.33 gallons)
Grain absorbs about 1.25 gallons
So first runnings are around 2 gallons

My total pre-boil volume is 7.25 gallons, so
7.25 - 2 = 5.25 gallons of sparge water
I split this in half, add 2.6 gallons of water, STIR like crazy and drain
REPEAT.

I shoot to have the grain bed get no hotter than 170 degrees.

Typical issues with efficiency come from:
1) grain crush
2) temps not what you think that they are (check your thermometer). When I first started, the thermo that I had was 8 degrees off.
I thought I was mashing at 152, when in reality I was at 144.

There are two efficiency to consider: The first is mash/lauter, the second is total brewhouse. Glad to hear you have your own mill! It sound like your gap is good. just be sure you have no whole grains and everything is in fact crushed with some flour.

Second: 1.25-1.5 qts per lb of grain is ideal for mash in and you will lose about .12 gallons per pound of grain to absorption which is considered a loss as well as any dead space in your tun. You also need to know what pre-boil volume you are looking for to calculate how much volume to sparge with.

Be sure you are using a good calibrated thermometer to ensure you are mashing at the correct temperature. Also be sure you are stirring well at dough in to be sure you are not getting dough balls and unwetted grains. Some people like to stir half way through the mash as well.

When sparging it is important to stir like hell prior to vorleuf/sparge. If you do a two step sparge you will need to stir like hell again, vorluef and drain.

Now, mash/lauter efficiency tells you how well you mashed. You need to take a gravity reading once all your wort goes into the kettle, prior to boil. Temperature corrected! This gravity should be about 10 points less than your estimated OG reading. If it is lower than that your mash process needs improvement. If it is higher than you have a good efficiency at this level.

Total brewhouse efficiency takes into account the final post boil, chilled gravity and this will be a function of both the lauter/mash as well as meeting all your required volumes. In other words if you get too much wort in the primary you will have a lower efficiency due to dilution, higher means you over boiled and concentrated the wort.

Hope this helps! If you are not using brewer software I would recommend it! Helps a lot.
Edit: Brewkinger is a much faster typer than I am Cheers!

Hey thanks guys. And yes I meant pounds of grain. What do yall think about my mash temp? Also what would be a better sparge temp? I will use a ratio closer to the 1 gallon per pound on my next brew. Maybe a 1.5 gallons per pound? I have done measurements of my pre-boil vs post-boil (after cooled) gravity and they are pretty close, if not the same. So I think my mash efficiency is where I am lacking.

What is your mash PH?

W0rthog said:

What is your mash PH?

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Never measured it. How much does it matter?

cch0830 said:

Hey thanks guys. And yes I meant pounds of grain. What do yall think about my mash temp? Also what would be a better sparge temp? I will use a ratio closer to the 1 gallon per pound on my next brew. Maybe a 1.5 gallons per pound? I have done measurements of my pre-boil vs post-boil (after cooled) gravity and they are pretty close, if not the same. So I think my mash efficiency is where I am lacking.

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To correct, it's quarts per pound, not gallons!

Your pre boil and post boil should not be the same or near the same either, they should be as stated about 10 points apart with pre boil always being the lower of the two.

Mash pH aids in conversion and should be 5.2-5.4 range. Get a local water report or order one from ward labs so you know where you are at.

Thanks y'all

The Mash PH, not the water PH, helps in the extraction and conversion of starch into sugar.

Your grain bill, water to grain ratio and water chemistry will contribute to the mash PH. Also any brewing salts and acid additions will influence the mash PH.

This is an area that I am currently working on to improve my efficiency.

Hope this helps

Couple notes. I think 1 to 1.5 quarts per pound of ratio is a good area. I personally start with 1.25 qts/lb that way if I don't hit my strike temp I can add hot/cold water to compensate and end up around 1.5 ish qts/lb.

Also, get a decent thermometer, doesn't have to be $100 thermapen, but get something that has a error range +/- 1.5 degrees. Temperature matters! Especially, when you want to start controlling your fermentables and body.

I brewed this morning and used some guidance that y'all gave me. first off it was a 12 pound grain bill with half a pound of rice hulls. I heated 4 gallons of MASH water. This was a pumpkin ale and I was suppose to mash at 152. I did not hit 152 but I hit 144. I normally hit my temperature but with the addition of pumpkin puree that came out of the fridge it dropped my temperature a lot. So that was my first mistake, plus I should have used at least one pound of rice hulls to avoid the many stuck sparges I had. I could only get 2 gallons out of the mash without having to wait 3 hours so I heated 5 gallons of Sparge water to 190 and hit 165. I took 6.5 gallons to the boil kettle with a pre-boil gravity reading of 1.039. I got exactly 5 gallons into the fermenter with a post boil gravity reading of 1.050. When I put this recipe into BeerSmith I set my brewhouse efficiency at 60% based off my previous brews. When I went back and plugged in my 1.050 reading into the recipe it said I had an efficiency of 57%. What am I doing wrong?

Something else to consider along with temperature and sparge volume would be lautering to fast. It can cause channeling through the grain bed creating lower efficiency and can cause stuck sparges by compacting the grain bed.
Steve

Still an AG noon myself, but I think you should have added some boiling water to the mash when you saw it was 144 instead of 152 (and stirred like hell to get it dispersed ASAP). Palmer describes this in how to brew. Mashing that low would hurt your efficiency I believe.

ratbastrd05 said:

Still an AG noon myself, but I think you should have added some boiling water to the mash when you saw it was 144 instead of 152 (and stirred like hell to get it dispersed ASAP). Palmer describes this in how to brew. Mashing that low would hurt your efficiency I believe.

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I agree that the low temp hurt me but I went and changed my OG in Beersmith to see what I would've had to get to get at least 80% efficiency and I would've had to get 1.070-1.080. I don't understand that

The pumpkin can definitely cause a major sparge issue. Mine stuck as well recently and I had to pull out my BIAB bag to finish the mash/sparge so I think you are normal in that regards. I did use 1+ lbs of rice hulls and it still stuck. How much temperature did your mash drop throughout the mash and did you try to raise it from the 144. I also boil a few quarts to have ready to raise temps if necessary. I would tighten your gap on the mill up as well and post pics of the crush if able so we can see if that is an issue

cch0830 said:

I agree that the low temp hurt me but I went and changed my OG in Beersmith to see what I would've had to get to get at least 80% efficiency and I would've had to get 1.070-1.080. I don't understand that

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Just rough ballpark of 37PPG for the 12lbs of grain, ~1.070 would make sense for 80% efficiency and 5 gallons. 12*37/5 = 71; Edit: Should be 12*37/5 (*0.80) = 71

How are you measuring gravity and volume? How are you measuring temperature? I'm not sure how much 144 would impact conversion, but I'd have to also guess with as many problems as you had with sparging, your actual mash time was pretty long (> 1hr)? Unfortunately your sparge water was hot enough to probably result in a mashout which denatured the enzymes and stopped conversion. If if were cooler you might have gotten even more conversion time.

TNTgill said:

The pumpkin can definitely cause a major sparge issue. Mine stuck as well recently and I had to pull out my BIAB bag to finish the mash/sparge so I think you are normal in that regards. I did use 1+ lbs of rice hulls and it still stuck. How much temperature did your mash drop throughout the mash and did you try to raise it from the 144. I also boil a few quarts to have ready to raise temps if necessary. I would tighten your gap on the mill up as well and post pics of the crush if able so we can see if that is an issue

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My mash only drops 2 degrees when I mash. I had also heated up some extra water just in case and when I added it, it did not raise the temperature, so at that point I did not want to add any more water and mess up my water/grain ratio. My mill is set to the credit card gap which is 30 I think. I even run my hands through the grain after crushing to check it and it looked great.

Hex23 said:

Just rough ballpark of 37PPG for the 12lbs of grain, ~1.070 would make sense for 80% efficiency and 5 gallons. 12*37/5 = 71

How are you measuring gravity and volume? How are you measuring temperature? I'm not sure how much 144 would impact conversion, but I'd have to also guess with as many problems as you had with sparging, your actual mash time was pretty long (> 1hr)? Unfortunately your sparge water was hot enough to probably result in a mashout which denatured the enzymes and stopped conversion. If if were cooler you might have gotten even more conversion time.

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What is PPG? I cannot remember. I am measuring with a hydrometer and I have a couple of different ones so I know there is nothing wrong with the hydrometer and yes, I am adjusting for temperature. And yes it took me at least an hour to sparge.

cch0830 said:

What is PPG? I cannot remember. I am measuring with a hydrometer and I have a couple of different ones so I know there is nothing wrong with the hydrometer and yes, I am adjusting for temperature. And yes it took me at least an hour to sparge.

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PPG is points per gallon and this is the potential extract of the grains. Just because you have several hydrometers doesn't mean they are all correct. Test one in distilled water and it should read 1.000 at it's calibrated temperature (Usually 68F). If it's off you need to adjust up or down in points.

If you are fly sparging then 45 minutes to an hour is usually the norm. You want to be sure there is at least an inch or two of water above the grain bed at all times through out the sparge.

duboman said:

PPG is points per gallon and this is the potential extract of the grains. Just because you have several hydrometers doesn't mean they are all correct. Test one in distilled water and it should read 1.000 at it's calibrated temperature (Usually 68F). If it's off you need to adjust up or down in points.

If you are fly sparging then 45 minutes to an hour is usually the norm. You want to be sure there is at least an inch or two of water above the grain bed at all times through out the sparge.

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I batch sparge and let the grain sit for about 5-10 minutes after adding sparge water.

duboman said:

PPG is points per gallon and this is the potential extract of the grains. Just because you have several hydrometers doesn't mean they are all correct. Test one in distilled water and it should read 1.000 at it's calibrated temperature (Usually 68F). If it's off you need to adjust up or down in points.

If you are fly sparging then 45 minutes to an hour is usually the norm. You want to be sure there is at least an inch or two of water above the grain bed at all times through out the sparge.

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How do you calculate PPG?

cch0830 said:

How do you calculate PPG?

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That is just a characteristic of each different grain. You can look it up.

Calculating efficiency is pretty simple on the fly if you just think about everything in "points". (Round the fractional part by 1000).

Base malt is usually ~1.036 PPG. Or 36 points per pound per gallon.
Darker crystal malts get progressively less.... C-20 ~35 PPG, C-80 ~34 PPG, C-120 ~32 PPG. Lager malts can be higher.

Let's take a simple 10 gallons recipe. Notice how the mash volume doesn't even matter.

16 lbs 2-row @ 36 PPG. 16 lbs * 36 PPG = 576 points.
2 lbs Crystal 40 @ 34 PPG. 2 lbs * 34 PPG = 68 points.

So the mash is holding a potential 644 points. This is 100%.

You collect 11.5 gallons @ 1.045 (or 45 points). 45 * 11.5 = 517.5 points in your kettle. 517.5 / 644 = 80%.

duboman said:

Test one in distilled water and it should read 1.000 at it's calibrated temperature (Usually 68F). If it's off you need to adjust up or down in points.

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I know some hydrometers a calibrated for 68, but I thought most were calibrated for 60 F. Anyway, the OP can check.

cch0830 said:

I batch sparge and let the grain sit for about 5-10 minutes after adding sparge water.

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Cool, did you stir? Before vorleuf it is important to stir lik you mean it and then stir again and again!

Hex23 said:

I know some hydrometers a calibrated for 68, but I thought most were calibrated for 60 F. Anyway, the OP can check.

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I actually have one at each the 68 one is spot on, the 60 one is off by .004.

duboman said:

Cool, did you stir? Before vorleuf it is important to stir lik you mean it and then stir again and again!

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I would probably say I don't stir enough. I only stir enough to make sure its mixed well but can, not stirring like a mad man, cause me to have 60% vs 80% efficiency?

cch0830 said:

I would probably say I don't stir enough. I only stir enough to make sure its mixed well but can, not stirring like a mad man, cause me to have 60% vs 80% efficiency?

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At dough in you stir to ensure all grain is well saturated. Once the mash is complete you stir like hell to knock all the sugars off to drain and then again to sparge so yes, stirring can greatly increase your efficiency!

duboman said:

I actually have one at each the 68 one is spot on, the 60 one is off by .004.

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Ya, I've had my share of bad hydrometers, some off by 0.004. I've had pretty good luck with the Alla brand. Both I've had have been dead-on.

Even though I know it should not matter I've stopped taking a sample at mash temperature and applying that much correction. I've either used a refractometer or cooled a hydrometer sample closer to 60. I've had problems in the past where it seems like measuring around 140F and correcting to 60F resulted in an underestimate of where I really was. I corrected for a low efficiency a couple of times, only to end up overshooting my OG. And I am pretty confident on my volume calculations.

duboman said:

There are two efficiency to consider: The first is mash/lauter, the second is total brewhouse.

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To expand on this idea, mash efficiency can be split into two parts as well conversion and lautering. Kai Troester has a great explanation of this as well as how to measure these separately. I agree with the advice the OP is getting in this thread on where to improve, but that could lead to a trial and error process. If you understand how the different parts of the mash contribute to efficiency, you can start to measure them separately and diagnose where the problem lies. In my case, I found that it was (like many people) a conversion issue caused by poor crush. The symptom was mash gravity continuing to increase well beyond hour. Since each part has an efficiency factor, you should expect your conversion efficiency to be higher than your overall mash efficiency - the lautering process has inefficiencies that causes overall extraction to drop. You can start by measuring conversion efficiency. Do PPG calculations similar to explained here, using just your mash water as the denominator. It's obviously most convenient and impacts the mash least if you can use a refractometer to measure the mash (just remember to apply a wort correction factor). Once you know where your efficiency problem lies, you can dive deeper into issues like crush, pH, temp, mash ratio, initial stirring (all conversion impacting), or fly-sparge channeling, batch sparge stirring, #batches (all lauter impacting)

duboman said:

In other words if you get too much wort in the primary you will have a lower efficiency due to dilution, higher means you over boiled and concentrated the wort.

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This is not my understanding of brew-house efficiency. Efficiency is all about the amount of sugars that make in to a particular phase of the process. The amount of dilution/concentration resulting from the boil does not impact the total sugars. The difference between brew-house efficiency and mash efficiency is due to wort (sugars) left behind in the BK (due to break material/hops trub) or in transfer hoses.

duboman said:

Cool, did you stir? Before vorleuf it is important to stir lik you mean it and then stir again and again!

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I'm just beginning with AG, but you stir right before you vorlauf? I thought that you wanted the grain bed to settle so that the grains would act as a natural filter. For my three AG batches, I've been stirring when I add the water, then at 30 minutes in, then letting it settle and then vorlauf, drain, sparge, stir, settle, vorlauf, etc.

I could be wrong - just my understanding.

ratbastrd05 said:

I'm just beginning with AG, but you stir right before you vorlauf? I thought that you wanted the grain bed to settle so that the grains would act as a natural filter. For my three AG batches, I've been stirring when I add the water, then at 30 minutes in, then letting it settle and then vorlauf, drain, sparge, stir, settle, vorlauf, etc.

I could be wrong - just my understanding.

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It depends on whether you are batch or fly sparging. For the former it is important to stir each batch before sparging. The vorlauf will clarify and set the grain bed. I don't think it would be wrong to stir before starting to fly sparge, but I don't think it's common or necessary.

Edit: On reading your question closer, I see your issue is not whether you stir or not, but rather whether you stir right before vorlauf. Still, I don't see a need to let it settle. The vorlauf will accomplish that.

I skimmed this thread and this may have been mentioned, but I didn't see a mention of volume measurement. How carefully is the wort volume being measured? This can have a pretty significant effect on efficiency calculations.

On the PPG issue, this is something that the malster tests and provides when selling malt. At the LHBS level, these numbers aren't usually available. However, if you plan on 36 PPG and the malt only delivers 34 per the malster, then your efficiency calculation shows a lower efficiency even though this isn't case. You are planning on something that the malt cannot deliver. This is the same if your malt is old or has been stored improperly (high humidity or high temp), or worse yet, pre-crushed and sat around a while. Your gravity ends up low and you think it's an efficiency issue when it's really not.

The whole efficiency argument gets pretty convoluted and you end up comparing apples to oranges. Measuring efficiency is one thing, trying to improve your efficiency is another. Give this a read:

The Efficiency Myth

On the improvement side, I'll echo the posters who advocate the crush as a significant contributor. I have found that the husk needs to be completely shed from the grain kernel. When you run grain through the mill and you pick up a kernel, sometimes it can be crushed but sill mostly inside the husk. This makes it hard for the water to get in and do the conversion. Try milling twice at a slightly looser setting. The first pass will actually crack the gain into pieces, the second pass will assure that the husk has been completely shed from the kernels.

tnlandsailor said:

The Efficiency Myth

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Awesome article!