Warm Fermented Lager Thread

Soooo saf3470 seems to be the concensus for warm fermentation and best flocculation? With times of fermemntation 10-14 days and lagering in keg for another week or two?

Marzen modified clone, been drinking couple weeks now. Finally found gelatin and clear beer. I thought it was the warm ferment it's really just the gelatin necessary.

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Miraculix said:

Thought about creating a thread like this one after I finished my raw helles I am going to brew the next days. Happy to see the thread already exists!

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Yes, love to see the thread growing.

ZmannR2 said:

Soooo saf3470 seems to be the concensus for warm fermentation and best flocculation? With times of fermemntation 10-14 days and lagering in keg for another week or two?

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34/70 is nice yeast and a good place to start. Yeah 7 to 14 days and then idk, cold crash and fine, this marzen above was crystal clear and delicious by day 15 or 16.

34/70 is definitely a solid yeast. I recently used S-189 for a märzen. Forgot to fine with gelatin but other than that it turned out perfect after fermenting at 70F!

Comfort_Zone said:

34/70 is definitely a solid yeast. I recently used S-189 for a märzen. Forgot to fine with gelatin but other than that it turned out perfect after fermenting at 70F!

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Without using gelatin, how clear was it?

I don't use gelatin at all, and after a good 2 weeks in the keg, the beer is crystal clear. I do use clarity ferm though so my wife can drink the beer.

ncbrewer said:

Without using gelatin, how clear was it?

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A little bit of haze, nothing crazy like a hefe at all. Given a couple weeks in the fridge I'm guessing it'll be nice and brite.

How does this work if you use bottles rather than kegs? And can't cold-crash the fermentor? (although in a few weeks I'll be able to cold crash them out in my garage)

Ferment in the mid-60's for 2 weeks or so, maybe warmer towards the end. Gelatin for a few days, then bottle like ale? Then after a week for carbing at room temperature, move the bottles to a fridge to finish clearing.

I have used gelatin without cold-crashing and it works, but those were cream ales that were not going to have chill haze anyway.

ncbrewer said:

Without using gelatin, how clear was it?

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You can see on pictures I have posted that without gelatin these beers need a few weeks until they drop Crystal Clear. All of mine have dropped clear this one fined the quickest and best.

z-bob said:

How does this work if you use bottles rather than kegs? And can't cold-crash the fermentor? (although in a few weeks I'll be able to cold crash them out in my garage)

Ferment in the mid-60's for 2 weeks or so, maybe warmer towards the end. Gelatin for a few days, then bottle like ale? Then after a week for carbing at room temperature, move the bottles to a fridge to finish clearing.

I have used gelatin without cold-crashing and it works, but those were cream ales that were not going to have chill haze anyway.

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Really? Awesome, have always wondered about using jello warm. One answer to your question is cold crash for a solid 24h till beer is cold. Microwave 1/2tsp gelatin with 1/2 cup water and dump in in spiral motion, no stirring. Bottle beer 4 days later or when clear I guess, it takes a few days and you will have BRIGHT beer. Best of luck.

For some reason a place by me is always out of 34/70. The wlp 800, 830, etc... have not been as clean. I think this wlp830 also has expressed a little esther, but then I tasted it in coors light. It might be acetaldehyde though from being young. 34/70 is absolutely my preference for now.

applescrap said:

Marzen modified clone, been drinking couple weeks now. Finally found gelatin and clear beer. I thought it was the warm ferment it's really just the gelatin necessary.

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Can you post the recipe and fermentation schedule you are using for that Marzen? Ill give the warm ferm a shot with ambient temps in my basement in the 66-68 range for the next month or so. :fro:

applescrap said:

Really? Awesome, have always wondered about using jello warm. One answer to your question is cold crash for a solid 24h till beer is cold. Microwave 1/2tsp gelatin with 1/2 cup water and dump in in spiral motion, no stirring. Bottle beer 4 days later or when clear I guess, it takes a few days and you will have BRIGHT beer. Best of luck.

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That's what I do, minus the chill for 24 hours part. In the winter, chilling shouldnt be a problem but the rest of the year it is.

triethylborane said:

Can you post the recipe and fermentation schedule you are using for that Marzen? Ill give the warm ferm a shot with ambient temps in my basement in the 66-68 range for the next month or so. :fro:

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can you believe this weather. I scrape my windshield in the morning and drive home with blasting ac. Sure. I try to use only the finest recipes I can find(this is from jp and jz i think). This was modified because I am cheap, and in the future I hope to get some different bulk grain sacks. This time I used franco belge pilsner because that is what I had and went with crystal 60 dark munich something or other that I got talked into. I would use official recipe. I used Willamette because I bought a pound to use as a utilitarian hop. Eldorado and crystal geyser spring water mixed. No fermentation schedule. Drink as needed. Wlp830 cold crashed at day 10. Day 11 fined and 15/16 force carbed and drinking since. Wlp800 is still sitting in primary warm approx month later. Will cold crash and drink soon. Hope you give it a try! Its cool enough as you said, that you probably have spots in your place cold anyways so no need not to make some lagers!

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I'm making my first marzen in a few weeks. That recipe looks like jamils?

I'm going to use Dan's Marzen on homebrew association.

Is this your first marzen? How do you like it?

applescrap said:

can you believe this weather. I scrape my windshield in the morning and drive home with blasting ac. Sure. I try to use only the finest recipes I can find(this is from jp and jz i think). This was modified because I am cheap, and in the future I hope to get some different bulk grain sacks. This time I used franco belge pilsner because that is what I had and went with crystal 60 dark munich something or other that I got talked into. I would use official recipe. I used Willamette because I bought a pound to use as a utilitarian hop. Eldorado and crystal geyser spring water mixed. No fermentation schedule. Drink as needed. Wlp830 cold crashed at day 10. Day 11 fined and 15/16 force carbed and drinking since. Wlp800 is still sitting in primary warm approx month later. Will cold crash and drink soon. Hope you give it a try! Its cool enough as you said, that you probably have spots in your place cold anyways so no need not to make some lagers!

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Cool, thanks for the info. Right now my basement is sitting at 67f but that drops once the ground freezes, obviously.

Do you mash at a bit higher temp to get more residual maltiness?

Brewed up a Marzen with warm fermented (65-ish) W-34/70 yeast in late August. No, it's not as clean and crisp as a lager fermented cold, but it still drinks pretty well. Cleared up pretty nicely with gelatin and some time in the keg.

TheAleRunner said:

Brewed up a Marzen with warm fermented (65-ish) W-34/70 yeast in late August. No, it's not as clean and crisp as a lager fermented cold, but it still drinks pretty well. Cleared up pretty nicely with gelatin and some time in the keg.

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How many lagers have you made the traditional way?

I really like using 34/70 in low ale temps personally - 60-64f - but i never made a true lager. However, i do lager the beer for a few weeks after its packaged.

seabrew8 said:

How many lagers have you made the traditional way?

I really like using 34/70 in low ale temps personally - 60-64f - but i never made a true lager. However, i do lager the beer for a few weeks after its packaged.

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None.

This was the first time I've ever used a lager yeast. I have the means to keep my brew space around 65, maybe slightly cooler in the winter, but not cold enough to brew a true lager.

Regardless of the fermentation temperature, can it honestly be called a lager if it is not stored at 30-40 degrees F. for at least some period of time post fermentation? After all, to lager means to store.

And it you have the ability to lager it, you should also have the ability to ferment it at 50-55 degrees, so I fail to see any sound logic in warm fermenting what is to be called a lager. Warm ferment, and then forego the cold storage (lagering) period, and what you have on your hands is an ale.

Silver_Is_Money said:

Regardless of the fermentation temperature, can it honestly be called a lager if it is not stored at 30-40 degrees F. for at least some period of time post fermentation? After all, to lager means to store.

And it you have the ability to lager it, you should also have the ability to ferment it at 50-55 degrees, so I fail to see any sound logic in warm fermenting what is to be called a lager. Warm ferment, and then forego the cold storage (lagering) period, and what you have on your hands is an ale.

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I made it clear that I dont want opinions about what and or how a lager should be. This is not a debate thread on warm fermentation of lagers but a discussion of them based on people who either make them or want to make them. Please move this comment to the fermentation temperature reproach thread where it belongs. I dont feel this comment is too off topic but it's close and my response should be a warning to any more like it. I have asked the mods to move this to the warm ferment debate thread and I will delete my comments after that. If you are into that debate you will enjoy that therad.

Lager yeast = lager beer
Ale yeast = ale
Saccharomyces pastorianus (cryotolerant aka cold fermenting), and is a hybrid of Saccharomyces cerevisiae (ale*yeast,*

applescrap said:

Sorry let me clarify, I plan on making a lot of warm fermented lagers and there are others that do as well. That thread is an open forum for debating fermentation temperature control. This thread, I would like to be a place for those of us who do this technique or are considering doing this and want to discuss that. The other thread is for stating opinions on if it should be done. This thread is for "I get it done this way" or how "do i do this."

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applescrap said:

A thread for people who ferment lagers warm and want to discuss it. This is not a place to argue or debate fermentation temperature control, there are other threads for that. If you warm ferment lagers and want to share results or are considering trying. I would like this to be a safe place for discussing all things warm lager beer and experimentation.

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The first two posts for reference.

If I brew a beer at 55°F with ale yeast is it a lager? No

Silver_Is_Money said:

Regardless of the fermentation temperature, can it honestly be called a lager if it is not stored at 30-40 degrees F. for at least some period of time post fermentation? After all, to lager means to store.

And it you have the ability to lager it, you should also have the ability to ferment it at 50-55 degrees, so I fail to see any sound logic in warm fermenting what is to be called a lager. Warm ferment, and then forego the cold storage (lagering) period, and what you have on your hands is an ale.

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applescrap said:

I made it clear that I dont want opinions about what and or how a lager should be. This is not a debate thread on warm fermentation of lagers but a discussion of them based on people who either make them or want to make them. Please move this comment to the fermentation temperature reproach thread where it belongs. I dont feel this comment is too off topic but it's close and my response should be a warning to any more like it. I have asked the mods to move this to the warm ferment debate thread and I will delete my comments after that. If you are into that debate you will enjoy that therad.

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Silver is correct. The term "warm lager" is a contradiction (and an awful one for those who love the style). Agreed 100%

However, I think the intent here is to brew a lager-like beer without using cold temperatures, so if we can all get past the semantics, there is merit to this effort.

Okay, has anyone done a high ABV beer this way? I want to brew a dubble bock at say about 11 %. Will this make a difference?

Silver_Is_Money said:

Regardless of the fermentation temperature, can it honestly be called a lager if it is not stored at 30-40 degrees F. for at least some period of time post fermentation? After all, to lager means to store.

And it you have the ability to lager it, you should also have the ability to ferment it at 50-55 degrees, so I fail to see any sound logic in warm fermenting what is to be called a lager. Warm ferment, and then forego the cold storage (lagering) period, and what you have on your hands is an ale.

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Yeah you can call it an ale using lager yeast if you want.

I've made some of my best beer using 34/70 personally. Maybe i could make the same beer with S05 i'm not really sure. Munich helles has been my main recipe so far. I'm of the mindset if its not broke don't fix it A few of my friends said it was my best beer to date. Its slightly malty/soft with a refreshing finish.

I also should elaborate i lager in near freezing temps for cool crashing and after packaging.

Silver_Is_Money said:

Regardless of the fermentation temperature, can it honestly be called a lager if it is not stored at 30-40 degrees F. for at least some period of time post fermentation? After all, to lager means to store.

And it you have the ability to lager it, you should also have the ability to ferment it at 50-55 degrees, so I fail to see any sound logic in warm fermenting what is to be called a lager. Warm ferment, and then forego the cold storage (lagering) period, and what you have on your hands is an ale.

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I totally see your point and don't disagree. I do lager right around 35* in the keg before tapping as that is what my keg refer is set at. My drawback is fermenting at what most lagers ferment at. I do use the swamp cooler method as a means to keep temps low, and I could make up more excuses for temps and laziness but I think we've all heard them before...I just haven't put in the effort or time to have myself properly set up for true lager style. I do have a ferm chamber in the works, but for now I make do and been pretty pleased with the results.
But again, I don't disagree with you at all. I'm cheating :fro: for now and trying to get away with it best I can.

I ferment in a mini-fridge so I have good temp control, but I didn’t want to tie it up too long with a lager. A month ago, I did my first ever lager, fermenting with 34/70 at 55* for 3 days, then 65* for three days and then it was at FG. I let it sit at 65* for a couple more days then crashed with gelatin. Damn tasty fast lager if I do say so myself. I’ll see what the judges say... if they knock it, I’ll try fermenting the traditional lager way - but I sure like being able to free up the mini-fridge as quickly as if I was doing a low gravity ale!

Man I just had a London five points brewery Pilsener.

I think this might have been the best Pilsener I have ever had (I am from Germany, the land of the Pilsener). It was dry, refreshingly bitter and came with a lot if earthy and a bit piny hop notes i have never tasted before. The can said it is dry hopped with noble hops.

So I changed my brewing plan. For tomorrow, I am not going to make a helles, it is going to be a Pilsener and I will only use hallertauer, also for dry hopping.

Exciting times!

Miraculix said:

Man I just had a London five points brewery Pilsener.

I think this might have been the best Pilsener I have ever had (I am from Germany, the land of the Pilsener). It was dry, refreshingly bitter and came with a lot if earthy and a bit piny hop notes i have never tasted before. The can said it is dry hopped with noble hops.

So I changed my brewing plan. For tomorrow, I am not going to make a helles, it is going to be a Pilsener and I will only use hallertauer, also for dry hopping.

Exciting times!

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Pretty funny. On the other end of the spectrum, a couple weeks ago I had an IPA that was brewed and dry hopped all with Perle hops. I thought it was absolutely amazing. I look forward to hearing how your pils turns out!

seabrew8 said:

I'm making my first marzen in a few weeks. That recipe looks like jamils?

I'm going to use Dan's Marzen on homebrew association.

Is this your first marzen? How do you like it?

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Haha, yeah it is a recipe by two men that could be described as calmer and jayz. This is my 20th g of this recipe. I like bitter pilsners and dont know why i keep making these. I got caught up in the whole moment of late September and all. As for the recipe and beer it is what it should be and if you like ocktoberfest I would recommend this recipe, sure. I have always modified it for one reason or another, but it will come out deeply rooted in the bjcp guidelines for marzen, I think.

Maybe some of you already know about Imperail Yeast L05 Cablecar. I just ran across it and it reminded me about this thread. I do not see it mentioned and thought perhaps it might be of interest.

http://www.imperialyeast.com/organic-yeast-strains/

Miraculix said:

I am from Germany, the land of the Pilsener

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The good burghers of Pilsen might respectfullly disagree. The last time Germany claimed the Sudetenland, it didn't end well....

Regardless of etymology, these days lager means bottom-fermented, ale means top-fermented - and just the time needed to carb can be regarded as "storage" if you're being that picky.

I'm surprised more people don't use Fermentis S-189 dry yeast for these kinds of beers, given it "works at a wide temperature range between 9-22°C (48.2-71.6°F) but ideally between 12-15°C (53.6-59°F). Highly flocculant. "

Not all of us have the means to ferment or process a true home brewed lager and it's interesting to see the anecdotal experiences from people who've put in the effort to "cross the lines" a bit.
I don't have that modified chest freezer with Inkbird-controlled temp sensor - yet. It's in the works.
As a seasonal brewer, I tend to do the majority of my hobby times during fall, winter, and early spring so applying yeasts to conditions " out of the zone" is of interest to me. Granted, I've done some not-so-great "lager styles" with ale yeasts at low ends of yeast tolerance simply for experimental experience, so seeing what others have ended up with is pretty informative.
Right now, I have a non-temperature controlled Belgian ale I could've done during warmer climes... But hey, it's beer and I wanna see results of how it reacts compared to the German styles I prefer.

Northern_Brewer said:

The good burghers of Pilsen might respectfullly disagree. The last time Germany claimed the Sudetenland, it didn't end well....

Regardless of etymology, these days lager means bottom-fermented, ale means top-fermented - and just the time needed to carb can be regarded as "storage" if you're being that picky.

I'm surprised more people don't use Fermentis S-189 dry yeast for these kinds of beers, given it "works at a wide temperature range between 9-22°C (48.2-71.6°F) but ideally between 12-15°C (53.6-59°F). Highly flocculant. "

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Hahahaha, yes you are correct. I was more aiming at the fact that Pilsener is the main beer in germany... Unfortunately they all taste quite the same over there, which I almost did not buy" another boring pils"... Glad I did buy this one!

Also will not brew today... Went to the London Oktoberfest yesterday, I got the hangover of death... I only had 4 beer!

Silver_Is_Money said:

Regardless of the fermentation temperature, can it honestly be called a lager if it is not stored at 30-40 degrees F. for at least some period of time post fermentation? After all, to lager means to store.

And it you have the ability to lager it, you should also have the ability to ferment it at 50-55 degrees, so I fail to see any sound logic in warm fermenting what is to be called a lager. Warm ferment, and then forego the cold storage (lagering) period, and what you have on your hands is an ale.

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Well, I was able to store it at 37° in my kegerator after transfer, and I let it be until last week. But no, I do not have the ability to ferment at 50-55°. I have a 3 tap upright fridge turned kegerator and a brew room that I am able to keep at 65° give or take a few degrees. Outside of buying another freezer (which I don't have room for) and temperature controller, there's no way I can ferment at 50-55°.

Did brew a Pils yesterday, 30 min mash, raw ale, hops cooked separately in water for half an hour. Used hallertauer mittelfrüh... Unfortunately I only realised the low alpha content when the pack was already opened so I went for it and used 60g on my 15 Liter batch to get in the area of 35 ibus. Will create a thread for this one when it's finished, as it is quite an interesting raw, no boil, short mash Pils. Did get 76% efficiency, which is quite all right for half an our mashing time. Biab with dunk Sparge in cold water.

I did no chill and rehydrated and pitched the 34 70 this morning.

I will call it The Lazy German as Brewing did take about one hour including cleaning.

Miraculix said:

Did brew a Pils yesterday, 30 min mash, raw ale, hops cooked separately in water for half an hour. Used hallertauer mittelfrüh... Unfortunately I only realised the low alpha content when the pack was already opened so I went for it and used 60g on my 15 Liter batch to get in the area of 35 ibus. Will create a thread for this one when it's finished, as it is quite an interesting raw, no boil, short mash Pils. Did get 76% efficiency, which is quite all right for half an our mashing time. Biab with dunk Sparge in cold water.

I did no chill and rehydrated and pitched the 34 70 this morning.

I will call it The Lazy German as Brewing did take about one hour including cleaning.

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Interesting brew. Let us know if it's any good. Why did you decide to do it no-boil, just to save time?

I've asked this in several other threads and never got an answer, so I'll try again. If you sparge with cold water does it make any difference if the water is alkaline? I either do full volume mashes, or a small sparge, but my water is liquid dolomite (limestone with a lot of magnesium too.) Oddly enough, the water tastes good. I've been acidifying the sparge water or using RO water, but I'd rather not if it's unnecessary.