Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

The McCormick "Vanilla Butter Nut" flavor is pretty good, and I used it in last year's pumpkin ale with good success.

Their standalone fake butter flavor might be good too, if it's made with the same stuff.

http://www.mccormick.com/Spices-and...-Food-Colors/Extracts/Imitation-Butter-Flavor

Nike_Eayrs said:

yeast
WYeast 1056

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I think overall your recipe should produce a good pumpkin ale. My only comment is that if you want to "clone" Pumking, 1056 is not the best choice. I would choose a more malt-forward british strain.

waldzinator said:

I think overall your recipe should produce a good pumpkin ale. My only comment is that if you want to "clone" Pumking, 1056 is not the best choice. I would choose a more malt-forward british strain.

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So can you give me an idea of a good strain? My LHBS is pretty limited. Can I use US-04? As always, thanks for the help!

Nike_Eayrs said:

So can you give me an idea of a good strain? My LHBS is pretty limited. Can I use US-04? As always, thanks for the help!

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That would work. If you have access to any liquid yeast strains (other than 1056), Wyeast 1099 (Whitbread) or 1187 (Ringwood - my personal fave for this beer) would work well. If you have access to White Labs yeast, WLP002 (English Ale) or WLP005 (British Ale) would get the job done.

Just a note about this beer and this thread... I tasted Pumking along with 10 others last year in a pumpkin beer tasting. We all thought Pumking was the best of the bunch. After reading this thread, I finally got the first of the year here- actual Pumking. I couldn't believe how buttery it was!? I don't remember that at all. It seemed to dissipate as it warmed a bit. I have a second which I'm gonna let age before tasting again. Strange. Amazing. Still quite good though!

doc5md said:

Just a note about this beer and this thread... I tasted Pumking along with 10 others last year in a pumpkin beer tasting. We all thought Pumking was the best of the bunch. After reading this thread, I finally got the first of the year here- actual Pumking. I couldn't believe how buttery it was!? I don't remember that at all. It seemed to dissipate as it warmed a bit. I have a second which I'm gonna let age before tasting again. Strange. Amazing. Still quite good though!

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I've got some of this years also. Had a non craft beer buddy try it. His first Pumpkin Beer and he said it tasted like straight up buttered popcorn. He liked it though. My 4th year drinking it, tastes just as good as I always remember it being. Creamy, pumpkin pie (maybe minus the cinnamon), pie crust, ginger, butter. I personally don't detect an astronomical amount of butter to the point that it dominates everything else going on in this beer, but it's definitely there.

And a question to those more knowledgeable than myself: If the classic buttery taste of Pumking is in fact Diacetyl produced by yeast, would the yeast not clean it up in the bottles that sit on the shelves in liquor stores across the country at room temperature? It's pretty rare I actually see Pumking in the chilled section. Or is the Diacetyl rest only possible at the tail end of fermentation?

Michael686 said:

When do you add the brown sugar? I tried a pumpkin ale last year, but was low on cinnamon.

Oakley Sunglasses

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I was planning on adding it at the 10 minute mark. That's when I add honey in my IPA's.

Chug said:

And a question to those more knowledgeable than myself: If the classic buttery taste of Pumking is in fact Diacetyl produced by yeast, would the yeast not clean it up in the bottles that sit on the shelves in liquor stores across the country at room temperature? It's pretty rare I actually see Pumking in the chilled section. Or is the Diacetyl rest only possible at the tail end of fermentation?

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I'm pretty certain that D-reabsorption is a natural process that happens when yeast is active. So, tail end of primary is the ideal time to conduct a d-rest, and the increase in ambient temperature precipitates this. I don't know if ST filters out their yeast...I would imagine they do. If so, then there won't be the Diacetly absorption.

Sorry I never reported back on any of this stuff from when I was trying to pin it down. It was a hell of a learning experience for me. This year, I made a different pumpkin beer that turned out very well. I struggled with the Pumpking clone, as you can see if you go back several pages, but ultimately I was pleased with mine.

I did do the graham cracker mash for mine, and it absolutely had that aroma to it. I did not use any of the extracts or flavor enhancers, though I did use a tincture with vanilla beans, rum and spices. You could probably get away with doing the graham crackers in the boil, but I do BIAB and preferred to remove that gunk along with the rest instead of have it contribute to the trub. If you're doing traditional, you will probably want to up your rice hulls if you're adding crackers.

I mashed mine a bit too hot and wound up with less fermentable wort that had trouble carbonating at the end. After a very long time, I stumbled on a few bottles and the carbonation was there - great taste. Everyone who tried mine thought the flavors and aromas were pretty close, despite the carbonation issue.

My current pumpkin beer also has that nice graham crackery, buttery aroma, and I do attribute it to the crackers added in mash.

Hope this helps at all.

waldzinator said:

Our recipes are similar.

OG: 1.079, FG: 1.020
ABV: 7.5 --- Not sure how they get it up to 8.6...maybe massive starter?
IBU: 28.5
SRM: 11.3
AG - 5.5 Batch

FERMENTABLES:
14 lb Briess 2-row
12 oz Caramel 80L
9.5 oz Light Brown Sugar Late Addition
4 oz Demerara Sugar Late Addition

HOPS:
.75 oz Magnum 60 Min = 27.0 IBU
.25 oz Sterling 15 Min = 1.5 IBU

EXTRAS:
2 Medium Pumpkins, roasted for 2-2.5 hours at low temperature
.50 tsp Allspice Flameout
.50 Cinnamon Flameout
.50 Nutmeg Flameout
Some ginger (didn't measure) flameout

YEAST:
Wyeast 1178 Ringwood --- 2-3L starter

MASH:
Single infusion 60 Min @ 156
Sparge @ 168

2 weeks primary @ 65degrees, no D-rest
2 weeks secondary

NOTES:
I am still sitting on the fence about the Graham Cracker extract. Enough people have said not to use it that I'm considering doing the crushed graham crackers in mash technique.

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So, I did a 1.5 week gravity check and taste. The gravity got down to 1.020 from 1.080, which is an abv of about 8.0% and an apparent attenuation of 75%. I attribute that, in part, to the fact that I mashed at a whopping 146. See my brew day mishap a few pages back.

Taste-wise, it has an alcohol feel like rocket fuel, probably because of the "thinness" of the beer. Definitely needs to age a bit! It's a bit spicy, owing to the Sterling hops. I definitely taste some graham cracker with a good pumpkin backbone. I plan to rack onto vanilla beans after the weekend...going out of town. To be honest, it seemed a little hoppy for me. My calculated IBUs were in the mid 20's. Could just be the greenness of the beer.

Waldzinator, what did you use for the graham cracker flavor?

Nike_Eayrs said:

Waldzinator, what did you use for the graham cracker flavor?

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I used one box of graham crackers crushed up. I used on box instead of two, simply because I plan on adding some vanilla to the secondary and didn't want too much sweetness. I followed the advice of others and refrained from using my g.c. extract. Now I'm stuck with a tube of the stuff....I'm thinking a french toast and homebrew party.

waldzinator said:

I used one box of graham crackers crushed up. I used on box instead of two, simply because I plan on adding some vanilla to the secondary and didn't want too much sweetness. I followed the advice of others and refrained from using my g.c. extract. Now I'm stuck with a tube of the stuff....I'm thinking a french toast and homebrew party.

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Thanks! I'm attempting a Pumking clone next weekend, and that flavor seems to be the hardest thing to nail down! I said it on another board, but I'll say it again here. I'm gonna get some "average" pumpkin beer and put some "vanilla nut butter extract" in it and see how that works out. Thanks again for the relply!

waldzinator said:

So, I did a 1.5 week gravity check and taste. The gravity got down to 1.020 from 1.080, which is an abv of about 8.0% and an apparent attenuation of 75%. I attribute that, in part, to the fact that I mashed at a whopping 146. See my brew day mishap a few pages back.

Taste-wise, it has an alcohol feel like rocket fuel, probably because of the "thinness" of the beer. Definitely needs to age a bit! It's a bit spicy, owing to the Sterling hops. I definitely taste some graham cracker with a good pumpkin backbone. I plan to rack onto vanilla beans after the weekend...going out of town. To be honest, it seemed a little hoppy for me. My calculated IBUs were in the mid 20's. Could just be the greenness of the beer.

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Thanks for the update.
My fermentation is done. OG was 1.069 and FG is 1.018 which is where I wanted it considering I wanted a lower ABV than Pumking. I mashed at 158 because I wanted to leave out the lactose and initial samples have a really nice mouthfeel.
I did a side by side with a my first bottle of Pumking of the season and I am definitely in the right direction. It tasted like Pumking's little brother. Same base flavors without the graham cracker but all of mine were more muted. I plan to rectify that by racking onto the vanilla beans today and adding more spices. I'll report back in a couple of weeks.

jaywhy, what yeast did u use?

I just read a nlog where someone used popcorn extract

http://www.stbcbeer.com/capabilities-view/frequently-asked-questions/
Pumking is not listed for ST beers containing lactose.

Thanks to everyone on this lengthy thread for their recipes, notes, and findings. I took a run at this last night, so wanted to post the recipe I followed (mostly from a previous post around page 58 w/ very slight variations like canned pumpkin, and cinnamon stick in secondary instead of ground), as well as some things to consider based on my brew.

Recipe: Punkin' Pie
Brewer: JD
Asst Brewer:
Style: Spice, Herb, or Vegetable Beer
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.04 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.50 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.10 gal
Estimated OG: 1.084 SG
Estimated Color: 11.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 30.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.1 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM)
14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
1 lbs Victory Malt (25.0 SRM)
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM)
58.00 oz Pumpkin (Mash 60.0 mins)
15.00 oz Graham Crackers (Mash 60.0 mins)
1 lbs Dememera Sugar (2.0 SRM)
4.0 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM)
0.75 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min
0.25 oz Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min
2.00 tbsp Ginger Root (Boil 12.0 mins)
2.00 Items Cinnamon Stick (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.55 tsp Nutmeg (Boil 0.0 mins)
0.50 tsp Allspice (Boil 0.0 mins)
2.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)
5.00 Items Cloves (Whole) (Secondary 14.0 days)
1.00 Items Cinnamon Stick (Secondary 14.0 days)
1.00 Items Vanilla Bean (Secondary 14.0 days)

I mashed for 60 minutes at about 155. I put the graham crackers, sugar, and lactose in for the full mash period. I did NOT have rice hulls in there last night, and subsequently dealt with a completely stuck sparge, which sucked, so I've added them in above as when I do this again I will use them without a doubt.

Aside from that, the rest of the process went very well. It had a really nice taste going into the fermenter, and I'm really looking forward for about 6 weeks from now!

I am soaking the secondary items in about 2-3oz of Vodka while for the 10-14 day primary, and then pouring that solution in when I rack to secondary.

Did GDlaws recipe today buy changed the amount of lactose in the boil to 4oz, gonna use the vanilla butter and nut extract. Dont know what his efficiency was but my o.g. was 1.112! So i think this batch isnt going to be ready for a long time.. good thing i brewed this at my local brewery and after I chilled I pumped in 2 liters of happy us05 right off the bottom of one of the brite tanks!

I found this http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2011/10/fat-washing-using-fatty-or-oily-foods.html. Do you think this would work with pie crust?

Nike_Eayrs said:

jaywhy, what yeast did u use?

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WLP013 London Ale

My beers have been finishing abnormally low lately and my version of this Pumpkin finished at 1.006 with S05. Can I back sweeten it with lactose by boiling with some DME?

I just ordered 5 different extracts from capella. I'm going to brew 6 gallons of this stuff and use the ringwood yeast for fermentation. I'll then divide this up into six 1 gallon secondaries using no extract, popcorn extract, vanilla cupcake, hazelnut, frenchtoast, and graham cracker. If they all suck i'm giving up next year.

sivdrinks said:

My beers have been finishing abnormally low lately and my version of this Pumpkin finished at 1.006 with S05. Can I back sweeten it with lactose by boiling with some DME?

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That is extremely low. What was your OG? Either your hydrometer is broken, you started with an extremely low gravity, or you got a bug somewhere in your works. Wild yeast will dry out beer above and beyond the work of your brewers yeast. Unless you picked a yeast strain that is a monster (us05 is attenuative, but bot to that extent), my money is on wild yeast/bacteria, especially since it just started happening. Do the beers taste different? Do they progressively taste worse as they age out?

waldzinator said:

That is extremely low. What was your OG? Either your hydrometer is broken, you started with an extremely low gravity, or you got a bug somewhere in your works. Wild yeast will dry out beer above and beyond the work of your brewers yeast. Unless you picked a yeast strain that is a monster (us05 is attenuative, but bot to that extent), my money is on wild yeast/bacteria, especially since it just started happening. Do the beers taste different? Do they progressively taste worse as they age out?

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I wanted something lower in ABV this year so I ended up with SG of 1.058 mashing around 152. I did 8 gallons for the first time so it was a little lower SG than expected but only by a couple points. The beers taste fine, no off flavors or smells. My last brew a Bastard clone went from 1.070 to 1.008 with one pack of Notty. The hydrometer was dead on 1.000 with water.

sivdrinks said:

I wanted something lower in ABV this year so I ended up with SG of 1.058 mashing around 152. I did 8 gallons for the first time so it was a little lower SG than expected but only by a couple points. The beers taste fine, no off flavors or smells. My last brew a Bastard clone went from 1.070 to 1.008 with one pack of Notty. The hydrometer was dead on 1.000 with water.

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Ok, that seems reasonable. That works out to about 86% attenuation with US05, which isn't unheard of. As for the Bastard clone, Notty is probably one of the most attenuative strains, so yeah, you're ok. I was assuming you produced a higher gravity clone (1.080 ish), which would be pretty impressive for 05.

Would it be too late in the year to brew an extract version of this and have it be ready by Halloween?

nhindian said:

Would it be too late in the year to brew an extract version of this and have it be ready by Halloween?

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You could be ready for Halloween if you brew soon. Do you bottle or keg? Even with bottle conditioning, you'd be ready, theoretically, by mid-October.

So any thoughts on the back sweetening? I'm probably just gonna go ahead and boil 4-8oz lactose with some extra flameout spice additions.

sivdrinks said:

So any thoughts on the back sweetening? I'm probably just gonna go ahead and boil 4-8oz lactose with some extra flameout spice additions.

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I've seen others add lactose to the secondary without issue. It will definitely help the mouthfeel. 1.008 is gonna feel like pumpkin wine .

I would check your spice levels prior to doing the spice additions. If you used Sterling hops (which is what Pumking uses), it has a nice spiciness. I found that mind had a good spice level, even with my single addition of spices prior to flameout.

waldzinator said:

I've seen others add lactose to the secondary without issue. It will definitely help the mouthfeel. 1.008 is gonna feel like pumpkin wine .

I would check your spice levels prior to doing the spice additions. If you used Sterling hops (which is what Pumking uses), it has a nice spiciness. I found that mind had a good spice level, even with my single addition of spices prior to flameout.

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I made this last year but bigger and ruined with the GC extract. I'm a big fan of slightly over doing the ginger, nutmeg and vanilla. Maybe a whole pound of lactose though, don't want pumpkin wine

I'm in the process of brewing the all-grain AHS Pumking clone recipe right now with a few minor changes:

Grains: 13.25 lbs Maris Otter
0.75 lb Crystal 150L
4.5 lbs Pumpkin (non-spiced canned)

Additional Sugars: 1.0 lb Piloncillo (Panela Sugar) @ 60 min.

Bittering: 0.5 oz Magnum @ 60 min.
Flavor: 1.0 oz Sterling @ 10 min.
Aroma: AHS Pumking Spice Pack (1 tsp Cinnamon, 1 tsp Nutmeg, 1 tsp Allspice,
1 tsp Whole Cloves) @ 5 min.

Misc: BrewVint Alcohol Boost @ 60 min.
Five Star Defoamer 105 @ 60 min.
BrewVint Yeast Fuel capsule @ 15 min.
Whirlfloc tablet @ 15 min.

Aeration: 2 min. w/O2

Yeast: The kit came with White Labs WLP002 but I accidently froze my starter, so I went to my LBS and bought 2 packages of Wyeast #1187 (Ringwood Strain).

At kegging add: 1 oz Vanilla extract powder

Alright, I am going to finally brew up an attempted clone this weekend.

14 lbs 2-row
1 lb biscuit
2 large cans pumpkin puree
lots of rice hulls
mash at 155 for 60 min (puree in strike water)

.5 oz magnum at 60
.25 sterling at 15
1 lb brown sugar at 10
1 tsp pumpkin spice at flameout

vanilla and other spices are going in at kegging, and I am going to play around with some combinations aged in vodka

as for the "crust" flavor, I am going to a cake decorating shop and I am going to play around with some different extracts

Blue_Monkey said:

13.25 lbs Maris Otter

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I like this idea a lot. Wish I woulda thought of it. You should get more depth of flavor...English biscuit. I may very well have to change for this next brew. I got a bunch of Crisp MO coming in from LHBS, since we are having a Brooklyn Brown Ale cloning competition. I was going to use the spare amount of some Brit pales and bitters...may need to divert.

Well im in search of an awesome pumpkin beer for my girlfriend, so I just finished reading this entire thread. I'm planning on making an attempt, but I've yet to try Pumking. I am going to pick up a bottle to see what I can come up with.

I read about the graham cracker flavor vs the butter nut..etc. I also read about the buttery flavor, and one posters comment about cap'n crunch.

I read that cap'n crunch is suppose to be brown sugar butter served on rice. The McCormick vanilla nut butter is almond, butter and vanilla...

Has anyone ever experimentd with those Nilla wafers? I know those things are often used as "pie crust" in ice cream and what not. And I feel the flavor is similar to what people describe.

I was thinking about mashing with the nilla wafers, but like i said, i havent tried pumking yet. Any thoughts?

insanim8er said:

Well im in search of an awesome pumpkin beer for my girlfriend, so I just finished reading this entire thread. I'm planning on making an attempt, but I've yet to try Pumking. I am going to pick up a bottle to see what I can come up with.

I read about the graham cracker flavor vs the butter nut..etc. I also read about the buttery flavor, and one posters comment about cap'n crunch.

I read that cap'n crunch is suppose to be brown sugar butter served on rice. The McCormick vanilla nut butter is almond, butter and vanilla...

Has anyone ever experimentd with those Nilla wafers? I know those things are often used as "pie crust" in ice cream and what not. And I feel the flavor is similar to what people describe.

I was thinking about mashing with the nilla wafers, but like i said, i havent tried pumking yet. Any thoughts?

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Maybe try Pumking first before trying to replicate the graham cracker flavor. I had my first bottle of the season last week and decided I don't particularly care for the graham cracker anymore. I think it makes it taste artificial.

What's the consensus on this? Cloned? Or not cloned? Which recipe seems to have come the closest?

I think I've found the secret to cloning this beer: Pumpkin Pie Extract.

I've tried several clone attempts with different variations on recipes in this forum, and the big thing I've noticed is that all of them produce good pumpkin spice ales, but none have the aroma or flavor of Pumking. I work at a brewery and we use a lot of extracts in our flavored beers from Silver Cloud Estates with great results, so I looked through their website and sure enough they have a pumpkin pie extract. I've been pulling pints out of my already kegged Pumking clone and adding drops of this stuff and I gotta tell you, its got the Pumking flavor and aroma in spades. I'm going to do some more sampling with different strengths of this stuff, then I'll be sure to post how much per gallon I end up using.

A link to the extract website:
http://www.silvercloudestates.com/product/Product.aspx?id=807

bulldawgbrewer said:

I think I've found the secret to cloning this beer: Pumpkin Pie Extract.

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does it add that "graham cracker" and diacetyl/butter flavor everyone talks about?

I'm really wanting to get a good pumpkin ale going, but I've yet to try the original. I'm waiting for my local supplier to get it in inventory. Apparently they changed distributors, so it's not on the shelves yet in Portland Oregon.

I did, however, do a hybrid recipe of the attempts on here along with the Brandon O graff. Went into the fermenter yesterday... we'll see how it goes.

bulldawgbrewer said:

I think I've found the secret to cloning this beer: Pumpkin Pie Extract.

I've tried several clone attempts with different variations on recipes in this forum, and the big thing I've noticed is that all of them produce good pumpkin spice ales, but none have the aroma or flavor of Pumking. I work at a brewery and we use a lot of extracts in our flavored beers from Silver Cloud Estates with great results, so I looked through their website and sure enough they have a pumpkin pie extract. I've been pulling pints out of my already kegged Pumking clone and adding drops of this stuff and I gotta tell you, its got the Pumking flavor and aroma in spades. I'm going to do some more sampling with different strengths of this stuff, then I'll be sure to post how much per gallon I end up using.

A link to the extract website:
http://www.silvercloudestates.com/product/Product.aspx?id=807

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Any off flavors of sort? I actually saw that online, and was curious as to how it would work. I really think the secret to this recipe is artificial flavoring of some kind.....not that it is a bad thing, but that is just my .02.