oh and something else that's comical; Chris White from White Labs wrote a book about yeast and the "art" of rinsing/cleaning it... Yet we are supposed to listen to someone on a forum who says something with no source?
I'm sorry but what I stated is fact.
You're still beating that drum, huh?
Just because you espouse it frequently, and loudly, doesn't make your opinion any more valuable.
Others in this thread have stated their opinion, and personal findings, that side-by-side brews using different yeast preservation methods presented identical results.
You're stating the opinion that there will be some difference of unknown quantity or quality, that makes your method superior to all others.
Seems the burden of proof is on your side of this debate, since you're the only one claiming a fact.
earwig said:no, its a fact that putting varying amounts of yeast with hop particles and trub affects taste . You listen to people on here and I'll listen to pros there are many podcasts and articles by people like Gordon Strong, John Palmer and jamil zainasheff etc. That I read and listen to often... They discuss these topics. Do what you want but at least try to back it up with a source if you give it as advice.
no, its a fact that putting varying amounts of yeast with hop particles and trub affects taste . You listen to people on here and I'll listen to pros there are many podcasts and articles by people like Gordon Strong, John Palmer and jamil zainasheff etc. That I read and listen to often... They discuss these topics. Do what you want but at least try to back it up with a source if you give it as advice.
Could you please send us the link to the podcast?
i don't see how trub affects the flavor of beer in a negative way, or any way for that matter. i don't think people are pitching rotten trub/yeast into their beer and if it didn't cause an off flavor in the first beer when does it start causing off flavors? the second or third? the 4th? if people are reusing unwashed yeast and making excellent beer who can argue with that? same goes for the washed yeast crowd, you can't go wrong either way. just because a commercial brewer does or does not do it is irrelevant to me because the proof is in MY pudding.
Commercial breweries wash their yeast. I'm not sure what you are talking about.
I'm talking about personal experience working in about a dozen breweries over a lot of years, including a few I am sure you have heard of; Rogue, Bell's and Breckenridge... never once have I seen anyone wash yeast... one colleague mentioned doing an acid wash ONCE and decided it was too much of a PITA... always just harvest and pitch. I am not talking about pitching a bunch of trub as you seem to be suggesting... whether harvesting from a Unitank or a 5 gallon bucket it is easy to get good yeast out while leaving most of the chunks behind.
oh and something else that's comical; Chris White from White Labs wrote a book about yeast and the "art" of rinsing/cleaning it... Yet we are supposed to listen to someone on a forum who says something with no source?
the people here were talking about pitching an unspecified amount "scooped" up. The breweries you mention use conical fermenters that allow you to run out the trub from the bottom before collecting the good yeast that would follow. At home scooping up a bunch and putting it in another beer is just not ideal. I mentioned earlier that mr malty's pitch rate calculator only goes up to 25% non-yeast. If you are pitching a scoop of trub and yeast there's no way the non-yeast amount will be under 25%.
I just finished fermenting a Sam Smith India Ale clone and was ready to wash my yeast and save it as illustrated in the sticky in this forum.
Christ White on the Sunday Session, 1/11/09:
Justin: He wants to know how to separate yeast and trub on a home brew level. Now, I don't want you to answer that question if you say its unnecessary. Cuz F it. If you say its unecessary, we don't have to go through this process. Do we have to?
Chris: I think it's uneccessary. You're also losing some sterols by getting rid of that trub. So unless you've got a LOT of trub, generally there's not enough there to be a problem.
If you are just scooping up yeast from the bottom of the bucket there will be "a LOT" of trub. Can u post a link to that interview? Im interested in reading it/listening. Thank you.
Why even wash yeast at all, just make a hugh starter with fesh yeast and hold some back out of a fresh starter, No off favors and nothing else?!?!
Can u post a link to that interview? Im interested in reading it/listening. Thank you.
some good ones are at beersmith.com click the link at the top for podcast.
If you are just scooping up yeast from the bottom of the bucket there will be "a LOT" of trub.
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/470
at 1:58 hour mark:
Chris White: I don't like to do a lot to it actually, you might think i talk about a lot of manipulation with that yeast cake. I like getting the beer off, swirling the fermenter, and you gotta swirl those fermenters pretty hard sometimes to get the yeast off, because they're sticking at the bottom. and if you just pour it off and you leave the good sticky stuff behind, you're leaving a lot of yeast behind. so you really gotta mix it up and get it swirling, and collect it into a sanitized container, and put that sanitized container into the fridge. (he then talks about venting while its in the fridge, various fart jokes from the show) I don't like washing it, I don't like manipulating it. Those aren't bad things to do, and if you're doing those things that's ok, or feeding it with more sugar, but you just have more of a risk of contamination every time you mess with it.
Doc: Are you saying maybe that's just going overboard and doing more than you have to do?
Chris White: Right, there's a benefit to it to the yeast, so there's a reason why it can be a good thing, but the disadvantages are just too high.
Then the quote above is from 2:07 in the same show.
Jamil Zainesheff from Brew Strong, 3-23-2009:
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/492
Jamil: The best way to do this, is, get yourself, uh, I prefer a sterile container, so what i use is this naglene type (and then he rambles on about sizes and plastic types for bottles and sterilizing in a pressure cooker)... when i rack my beer out of my carboy or bucket or whatever it might be, i'll swirl the carboy around, break up the yeast cake on the bottom, i leave like a half inch of beer in there. Swirl it real good, break everything up, and then i will flame the opening on the carboy. And then i pour that into the sterile container, and then i put it in the fridge, and that's all i do with it.
Because it saves me between $3 and $9 per batch! With washing yeast, I can do a 5 gallon batch of a good beer (e.g. SN Celebration) for under $15 in ingredient costs (figuring $1/batch with re-using yeast).
Edit: Never mind, I need coffee in the morning. This is an intriguing idea, and you could even make a bunch of yeast via a fresh package and starter. But it's not much different than doing a batch (except no hops )?
Ha! Interesting! Listening further along in the Brewstrong I referenced above, JZ just said that prior to pitching, he adds sterile water to the yeast, shakes it up, and allows the trub to settle, then pitches the liquid. So apparently he DOES rinse yeas, he just does it right prior to pitching, rather than prior to storing, which is interesting, because I've typically heard that one of the advantages of rinsing is yeast health during storage.
So, updated, it sounds like Jamil advocates pre-pitch rinsing of sorts. I guess its directionally less likely to cause sanitation problems, because there's no time for any bacteria you introduce during rinsing to reproduce prior to being pitched into the full wort?
This is essentially what I do if I am re-pitching a yeast cake. I will do a 1-step washing (instead of my normal 2-step):
1) Boil up about 1/2 gallon of water, let it cool to room temp.
2) Rack beer off of yeast cake.
3) Pour boiled water into fermenter and give it a good swirl/shake.
4) Cool fermenter for about 1/2 to 1 hour to let trub particulates precipitate
5) Pour contents into sanitized 1 gallon jar (pour until you start getting trub sludge)
6) Put jar in fridge (usually overnight) and let other particulates precipitate
7) Decant liquid until yeast starts to pour out
8) Pitch the rest into wort
Doing this, you don't get much trub sludge - most of what you are getting is the washed yeast. You do get more sludge than a 2-step washing (the only difference is at step 7, you pour into individual jars until you hit trub sludge), but I think it is minimal. I used washed yeast calculations for my pitch rate when doing this. Works great, minimal work, and I usually get a lag time of < 6 hours.
cyclonite said:This is essentially what I do if I am re-pitching a yeast cake. I will do a 1-step washing (instead of my normal 2-step):
1) Boil up about 1/2 gallon of water, let it cool to room temp.
2) Rack beer off of yeast cake.
3) Pour boiled water into fermenter and give it a good swirl/shake.
4) Cool fermenter for about 1/2 to 1 hour to let trub particulates precipitate
5) Pour contents into sanitized 1 gallon jar (pour until you start getting trub sludge)
6) Put jar in fridge (usually overnight) and let other particulates precipitate
7) Decant liquid until yeast starts to pour out
8) Pitch the rest into wort
Doing this, you don't get much trub sludge - most of what you are getting is the washed yeast. You do get more sludge than a 2-step washing (the only difference is at step 7, you pour into individual jars until you hit trub sludge), but I think it is minimal. I used washed yeast calculations for my pitch rate when doing this. Works great, minimal work, and I usually get a lag time of < 6 hours.
bcryan said:In step three you said you pour boiled water into fermenter. Wouldn't boiling hot water kill the yeast??
Truth be told, I usually add a gallon or so of clean water to the cake to loosen it up, leave in roughly one cup of yeast and whatever else, pitch new wort on.
This may be a bastardized washing even though washing is not the intent.
My comments were to people scooping up yeast trub and all and just pitching varying amounts of it willy/nilly not being concerned about the amount of trub etc. Harvesting from a fermenter that lets you run out most of the trub first is not the same. It isn't full blown rinsing but it sure isn't what people in here were talking about when I started chiming in. Also, adding water and letting it settle like Chris does is washing the yeast; not the best job but he is able to separate some of the yeast from the trub. I haven't read or heard of anyone who would do what the folks were talking about in the beginning of this thread.
You said it yourself. Just had to point that out. No need to keep trying to convert people to do practices that you feel are the right way. Like I like to say: If we all did something only one way, because someone before us says it's the only way to do it, we would all be naked and still living in caves.Everyone has different opinions and practices I guess.
discnjh said:I'll answer on his behalf. Boiled and then chilled water. Boiled, not boiling.
I never suggested that people who don't wash the yeast were making crappy beer.
Beninan, I just choose to try and get as close to the proper pitching amount as possible. I never suggested that people who don't wash the yeast were making crappy beer. I just like to be able to replicate something again or share it with people. Pitching different amounts changes the flavor of the beer and the amount of time that it takes to "age". Its whatever... I was just giving my opinion and trying to explain why I feel this way. I have to say... I never had an infected batch of washed yeast or beer and it takes me maybe 15 minutes tops. I think the time spent is worth it.
I usually wash my yeast (although I packed up two mason jars of unwashed cake yesterday after following this thread ) and it does not take 15 minutes. You have to boil/cool water, which takes the better part of an hour, then spend as much as 40 minutes washing (if you do the double wash as described in "yeast washing illustrated"). It yields a beautifully "clean" product that has never caused infection in my experience, but it takes considerably more time than dumping cake in a jar.
I guess whatever works for you. I tried to at least come close to pitching the right amout that a receipe calls for.
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Will be gone by the middle of may 2012 if no one comes to get them.
Wanna compare beers?
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