FEDERAL laws regarding homebrewing

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Brewer_Bob

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Alright, this might be a unique spin on a common question here. I am searching online and can’t find anything concrete (maybe because there isn’t anything?) Hoping you guys can help out.

Are there any US FEDERAL laws regulating the production and selling of homebrew? Because I am stationed overseas I am not bound by any US STATE law. And because I am a diplomat I am not bound by my host country’s law. I am, however, bound by US federal law and US federal law only. So I am trying to determine what I can’t do with my homebrew under federal law.

Here is the thing. My homebrew has become very popular. Other diplomats are wanting to buy batches from me for both personal and official use. Official use being officially hosted events. Now, I am new to brewing so I welcome the excuse to brew more. But since I have to mail order EVERYTHING I use in home brewing, it can become pricey. What I would like to do is to sell my beer to these diplomats at COST. Absolutely no profit. I am not permitted to use my government quarters to run a business or to use my position as a diplomat to make a profit. I will not charge for my time, only for supplies and shipping. So I reiterate: NO PROFIT.

So what I am trying to determine is if there is a federal law against taking money for homebrew, even if it is not for profit. And if there is a limit to how much can be brewed.

I searched the wiki and got this:

Federal law
In November 1978, Congress passed a bill repealing Federal restrictions on the homebrewing of small amounts of beer. Jimmy Carter, 39th President of the United States, signed the bill into law in February 1979, and many states soon followed suit. There is currently no federal law against homebrewing as long as you stay within the legal limit with regards to quantity.

The current federal limit on homebrewing beer is 100 gallons for a single adult, or 200 gallons for a household with two or more adults. Adult here is defined as 21 years of age or older.
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Starting with the limit of homebrew allowed. Based on that limit my household is allowed 200 gallons. So does that include the gallons of beer you give away?

and on selling:

Restrictions on sales
The federal law, and some state laws, also restrict what you can do with your homebrew. Every state forbids the commercial sale of homebrew, but there may be additional restrictions on what you can do with your homebrew depending on where you live.
Click to expand...


Does every state forbid it because every state has a law against it or is it because there is a federal law against it? And does me being reimbursed for supplies and shipping constitute “commercial sell”?

I have been googling and just can’t find specifics on federal law other than the vague guidelines I pasted above. I am NOT trying to find some loop hole, just the facts. And if the fact is it is against federal law for me to sell my homebrew at cost then I won’t do it. And more importantly, I will be able to tell my fellow diplomats exactly why I have to say no.

And before anyone says I should be asking a lawyer instead of guys on a message board, don’t worry, I will get permission through the proper channels before doing this. I just wanted to do my own due diligence before going to them. Thanks.
 
I suggest you send them a link to what you need and have them order the materials and have it sent to yours house. This would be the "cleanest" method for you to get the ingredients and not worry about the laws. IANAL but it is my understanding that the ingredients become beer once you pitch the yeast.
 
Seriously, this is an interesting situation, and most likely a tricky one. Unless you are brewing in the embassy, which is sovereign US soil, I don't know that the regulations would apply to your place of residence in another country.....

But I know very little about such things, so call someone in the ATF to get the correct answer.
 
I was gonna suggest what daugenet suggested, have them buy the ingredients and supplies. Just give them a list of what's needed for a particular batch, have them order it, and when you receive it, brew away.

As for the amount, I believe that it's the total amount brewed, regardless if it's for personal consumption or "gifts". But then again, who's counting?
 
daugenet said:
I suggest you send them a link to what you need and have them order the materials and have it sent to yours house. This would be the "cleanest" method for you to get the ingredients and not worry about the laws. IANAL but it is my understanding that the ingredients become beer once you pitch the yeast.
Click to expand...

Having them order the supplies might not be a bad idea. It would avoid the whole exchanging of money. It still leaves me with the question of whether or not I am limited to the 200 gallons if it isn’t being consumed by people in my household.
 
Hartski said:
Seriously, this is an interesting situation, and most likely a tricky one. Unless you are brewing in the embassy, which is sovereign US soil, I don't know that the regulations would apply to your place of residence in another country.....

But I know very little about such things, so call someone in the ATF to get the correct answer.
Click to expand...

A diplomat’s person, residence, and (to a lesser extent) vehicle are protected.
 
Hartski said:
Does that apply to activities on foreign soil?
Click to expand...

Hmm, it is a federal agency so I think it would apply to US diplomats on foreign soil as we are still subject to US federal law. Of course then you could end up nitpicking what constitutes selling.

I don’t want to do such nitpicking. I have grown fairly fond of my security clearance and don’t want to avoid even the semblance of impropriety. No, I thinkthe way to go is to have them order the supplies, give me the supplies, I make the beer, and then give them back the beer. In my opinion tat doesn’t even skirt the line.
 
Another safety net for you...

Provide them with the yeast (or starter) and have them pitch it. Even if you provide them with sugar water and storage space, you are not making "beer" just sugar water.

Enjoy!
 
ISLAGI said:
Another safety net for you...

Provide them with the yeast (or starter) and have them pitch it. Even if you provide them with sugar water and storage space, you are not making "beer" just sugar water.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I won’t be doing that. That probably works fine for a private citizen who just wants to avoid prosecution. But it might be walking too fine a line for my situation. It also isn’t that practical. It would seem…weird…to ask an ambassador to stop by my house and pitch some yeast. :)
 
I'd have to agree, functioning as a BOP (brew on premises) is your best bet. But that doesn't let you brew the beer for people or even make wort for them. They have to be there.
 
Brewer_Bob said:
Hmm, it is a federal agency so I think it would apply to US diplomats on foreign soil as we are still subject to US federal law. .
Click to expand...

You just answered your own question. Now if you were just a normal american you could do whatever the host country allows and not be bound by USA laws.

Much like going to amsterdam and doing shrooms or buying & smoking dope or visiting the ladies in the redlite district. All illegal in the usa but your not in the usa.
 
Revvy said:
But the laws concerning the sale of homebrew ARE federal Laws. It was the 1978 overturning of the law that made homebrew legal, and that was signed my Jimmy Carter. And the TTB is the federal body that sets enforces those laws. http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml

This has links to the original legislation. History of Home Brewing Legalization in the U.S. (seeking info) History of Home Brewing Legalization in the U.S.

I don't know how it would relate to your particular status.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Rev, but reading over the TTB link it sure looks like it is against federal law to share any of your beer with anyone who isn’t you or your family.

B3: Must TTB approve my operations when I intend to make beer?
If you intend to make beer for other than family or personal use, TTB must approve your operations.
Click to expand...

What is personal use? Is giving some homebrew to my buddies personal use? Is sharing with my colleagues personal use? Is entering your beer in a competition personal use?

Ugh.
 
Out of curiosity, how many gallons do you think you will producing a year for this events and personal consumption? Are you able to get beer shipped in or is it completely banned from entering Libya? The reason I ask is that the right people may be able to work the angle that this is for "morale" and therefore may get a blind eye turned to it. It's only beer after all.

I'm probably wrong but it just seems to me that it's not a big deal in your situation.
 
CatchinZs said:
Out of curiosity, how many gallons do you think you will producing a year for this events and personal consumption? Are you able to get beer shipped in or is it completely banned from entering Libya? The reason I ask is that the right people may be able to work the angle that this is for "moral" and therefore may get a blind eye turned to it. It's only beer after all.

I'm probably wrong but it just seems to me that it's not a big deal in your situation.
Click to expand...

I think I could get close to the 200 gallons just by sharing with my firends, which is why I am most interestred in the limit aspect.

Most of the embassies here receive alcohol shipments through perfectly legal means. But it is expensive and takes a long time to get here. The fact of the matter is there is virtually no chance of me getting into trouble for any of this as long as I avoid personal profit. But I am still curious of what the law has to say about it and when the law is vague I think it is fun to talk about. And from a practical stand point, I want to be as educated on the matter as possible.
 
Brewer_Bob said:
Hmm, it is a federal agency so I think it would apply to US diplomats on foreign soil as we are still subject to US federal law. Of course then you could end up nitpicking what constitutes selling.

I don’t want to do such nitpicking. I have grown fairly fond of my security clearance and don’t want to avoid even the semblance of impropriety. No, I thinkthe way to go is to have them order the supplies, give me the supplies, I make the beer, and then give them back the beer. In my opinion tat doesn’t even skirt the line.
Click to expand...

Actually it is pretty clearly over the line. While a rare activity, bartering isn't legally a particularly different activity from currency mediated transactions.

Here is a question: why can't you just give some beer to your colleagues? Wouldn't it be weird if someone brought some cookies into the office and asked you to buy one?
 
Houblon said:
You just answered your own question. Now if you were just a normal american you could do whatever the host country allows and not be bound by USA laws.

Much like going to amsterdam and doing shrooms or buying & smoking dope or visiting the ladies in the redlite district. All illegal in the usa but your not in the usa.
Click to expand...

I’m just trying to nail down exactly what the federal law says though.

As for the Amsterdam thing, yeah. In many ways a US tourist in Amsterdam has more liberty than a US diplomat would. However, in a country like Libya, the same can’t be said. :) In addition to all of this, as a military officer I also fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Keeps things interesting I guess.
 
remilard said:
Actually it is pretty clearly over the line. While a rare activity, bartering isn't legally a particularly different activity from currency mediated transactions.
Click to expand...

How is this bartering though? I am not gaining anything. They are giving me supplies but I am giving them back, just in a different form. Now, if I kept a portion of the beer for myself, then yeah, I would consider that bartering. If your car breaks down and your friend offers to fix it for you at no charge and for nothing in return, when he gives you the fixed car back does that count as bartering?

Here is a question: why can't you just give some beer to your colleagues? Wouldn't it be weird if someone brought some cookies into the office and asked you to buy one
Click to expand...

I can, and I do. And in general that will be the case. But when someone comes to me and asks if I can produce 50 bottles of a certain style for an official function that can start to become a pricey favor, particulary in a country where it is very difficult to get beer bottles or CO2 for kegging.
 
I think you're really going to have to talk to the TTB about this, just in genralities, or have a qualified attorney read through the laws. I think you are in an oddly unique situation. For all you know, you might fit into some loophole where you could quite easily go legit.
 
Revvy said:
I think you're really going to have to talk to the TTB about this, just in genralities, or have a qualified attorney read through the laws. I think you are in an oddly unique situation. For all you know, you might fit into some loophole where you could quite easily go legit.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm going to do that. Even aside from the whole diplomat thing I would like some clarification from the TTB on what constitutes "personal use".
 
Stationed in a land where alcohol is illegal.............who did you piss off?
 
Bartering is included in IRS definitions of "sale" because a sale occurs when one good or service is exchanged for any consideration whereby consideration is any of value to the recipient. Therefore, whatever consideration you receive is considered income by the IRS, which has federal jurisdiction. I presume they also have jurisdiction over the embassy and its employees.

It is likely that TTB regulations apply to you. Therefore, it is unlikely you would be able to sell, trade, barter, etc. beer to other diplomats without TTB licensing. Additionally, there may be separate administrative rules that apply to you as a diplomat that may modify, eliminate or increase regulation of your homebrew production and sales. You are truly best off consulting an attorney and perhaps any unit within your organization that provides clarification of the administrative rules that govern your position.
 
Go talk to JAG, last I was aware you still technically have to follow host nation laws to a point thats "partly" why alcohol in Iraq and Afghanistan is not allowed for US Troops
 
KuntyBrew said:
Go talk to JAG, last I was aware you still technically have to follow host nation laws to a point thats "partly" why alcohol in Iraq and Afghanistan is not allowed for US Troops
Click to expand...

But those troops are not accredited diplomats, I am. An interesting note is that the military attaches assigned to the embassies in Iraq and Afghanistan would be permitted to drink alcohol unless the Ambassador forbids it, and he may very well.
 
Brewer_Bob said:
But those troops are not accredited diplomats, I am. An interesting note is that the military attaches assigned to the embassies in Iraq and Afghanistan would be permitted to drink alcohol unless the Ambassador forbids it, and he may very well.
Click to expand...

:off: But like I said your life fascinates me, but if the Military Attaches are allowed to drink, are the marine guards?
 
If The US was a free country you`d have nothing to worry about as a free man could do anything he wanted with his own property without being granted permission by one of the Kings agencys.
 
Revvy said:
:off: But like I said your life fascinates me, but if the Military Attaches are allowed to drink, are the marine guards?
Click to expand...

MSGs do have diplomatic immunity. It makes for interesting situations because you will have some Lance Corporal MSG with more "rights" than a Colonel assigned to the same region.

That said, the MSGs actually have a lot of restrictions placed on them by the State Department (for the duration of an embassy assignment the MSGs belong to State and fall under the Marine Corps for fiscal and administrative matters only. MSGs must be single and they all share a residence. Many places they are not permitted to drive when the rest of us may. These restrictions do not apply to their detachment commander, who is usually a Gunny. Most Det Cdrs are tough on their MSGs. Being an MSG is a prestigious assignment for a Marine.

I HIGHLY doubt the Det Cdrs in Iraq and Afghanistan allow drinking, even if the Ambassador does.
 
AKbrewer said:
If The US was a free country you`d have nothing to worry about as a free man could do anything he wanted with his own property without being granted permission by one of the Kings agencys.
Click to expand...

Become a premium supporter and we'll take it to the debate forum. :)
 
I'm not going to read through all this but my question would be, can't you just get a legal opinion from the State Department on this? Seems like the easiest thing to do is get 'official' word from those that would make your life hell if you do this wrong.
 
Hermit said:
I'm not going to read through all this but my question would be, can't you just get a legal opinion from the State Department on this? Seems like the easiest thing to do is get 'official' word from those that would make your life hell if you do this wrong.
Click to expand...

He'd probably get an automatic "NO" - easier for the bureaucrats to CYA than actually research and give an opinion that could possibly (even a 1 in a million chance) get them in trouble some day.
 
Brewer_Bob said:
Alright, this might be a unique spin on a common question here. I am searching online and can’t find anything concrete (maybe because there isn’t anything?) Hoping you guys can help out.

Are there any US FEDERAL laws regulating the production and selling of homebrew? Because I am stationed overseas I am not bound by any US STATE law. And because I am a diplomat I am not bound by my host country’s law. I am, however, bound by US federal law and US federal law only. So I am trying to determine what I can’t do with my homebrew under federal law.

Here is the thing. My homebrew has become very popular. Other diplomats are wanting to buy batches from me for both personal and official use. Official use being officially hosted events. Now, I am new to brewing so I welcome the excuse to brew more. But since I have to mail order EVERYTHING I use in home brewing, it can become pricey. What I would like to do is to sell my beer to these diplomats at COST. Absolutely no profit. I am not permitted to use my government quarters to run a business or to use my position as a diplomat to make a profit. I will not charge for my time, only for supplies and shipping. So I reiterate: NO PROFIT.

So what I am trying to determine is if there is a federal law against taking money for homebrew, even if it is not for profit. And if there is a limit to how much can be brewed.

I searched the wiki and got this:



Starting with the limit of homebrew allowed. Based on that limit my household is allowed 200 gallons. So does that include the gallons of beer you give away?

and on selling:




Does every state forbid it because every state has a law against it or is it because there is a federal law against it? And does me being reimbursed for supplies and shipping constitute “commercial sell”?

I have been googling and just can’t find specifics on federal law other than the vague guidelines I pasted above. I am NOT trying to find some loop hole, just the facts. And if the fact is it is against federal law for me to sell my homebrew at cost then I won’t do it. And more importantly, I will be able to tell my fellow diplomats exactly why I have to say no.

And before anyone says I should be asking a lawyer instead of guys on a message board, don’t worry, I will get permission through the proper channels before doing this. I just wanted to do my own due diligence before going to them. Thanks.
Click to expand...


I have a DoS background.

First and foremost, you are bound to whatever the ambassador says. But, you are also bound to the host nations rules. In the case of alcohol, I would imagine a Muslim country automatically bans it. Sometimes the host nation allows certain leeway in regards to embassies.

It's best to ask some of the senior FS grades.


In the case of selling the best answer that I can give you is NEVER. It's better to do trades. Have them take you out for baba ganush or something.
 
Brewer_Bob said:
Become a premium supporter and we'll take it to the debate forum. :)
Click to expand...
There is nothing to debate. You can`t sell your brew without government permission, I cant make over 200 gallons without government permission...Thats not freedom, although it is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
Chesterbelloc said:
I have a DoS background.

First and foremost, you are bound to whatever the ambassador says. But, you are also bound to the host nations rules. In the case of alcohol, I would imagine a Muslim country automatically bans it. Sometimes the host nation allows certain leeway in regards to embassies.

It's best to ask some of the senior FS grades.


In the case of selling the best answer that I can give you is NEVER. It's better to do trades. Have them take you out for baba ganush or something.
Click to expand...

My entire career is spent working out of embassies. I am never stationed state side. I think I have more embassy tours under my belt than anyone else at the embassy with the possible exception of the AMB and DCM. That said, I did talk about it with some folks, such as the RSO, and got the green light.

I understand the whole host country rules thing. Libya has plenty for us and if we break them they won't hesitate to PNG us. That said, diplomats consumption of alcohol isn't prohibited by their rules. Hell, we had four open bars at the 4th of July event in which the highest levels of Libyan government were invited.

As for selling? No way. I wouldn't even sell cookies from my dip residence.
 
Brewer_Bob said:
How is this bartering though? I am not gaining anything. They are giving me supplies but I am giving them back, just in a different form.
Click to expand...

Well, the same would be true if they gave you coal and you gave them back the ash, or they gave you food and you gave them back the . . . you know. But both of those would be considered bartering too.

>Now, if I kept a portion of the beer for myself, then yeah, I would consider
>that bartering. If your car breaks down and your friend offers to fix it for
>you at no charge and for nothing in return, when he gives you the fixed car
>back does that count as bartering?

No. Now if you offered to pay for parts and tools, or provided him with the parts and tools, it _would_ be bartering.

But when someone comes to me and asks if I can produce 50 bottles of a certain style for an official function that can start to become a pricey favor, particulary in a country where it is very difficult to get beer bottles or CO2 for kegging.
Click to expand...

Well, that should only be expensive once, right? Once you have the bottles/kegs it becomes a lot easier.
 

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