a different sort of pale ale-critique

I'm looking to brew a very well-balanced pale ale, where the hops meet the malts perfectly, and that doesn't use any C hops. I'm bored of APA's that all taste like 2-row with cascade and centennial in them. what do you guys think of this...

Mini-Mash (which I've never done, only AG and extract, so help maybe needed here)

.5 lb. crystal 20L
.25 lb. crystal 40
1 lb. biscuit malt
1 lb. cara-pils
2 lb. munich

3 lb. extra light DME

Northern Brewer: .25 oz. at 60, 30, 15, and dry
Simcoe: .25 oz. at 60, 30, 15, and dry
Willamette: .25 oz. at 15, 5 and .5 oz. dry

cali ale yeast


so what do you think...the hops and ratio between munich-specialty malts is what i'm concerned the most about.

I would drop the biscuit malt back alot, no more then 1/2 a pound, probably just a 1/4 pund. It has a strong flavor.

LOL...I was just thinking that same thing. For a more malty flavor, biscuit works, as well as some aromatic or some victory, but no more than 1/2 lb. A little will go a long way.

cool, i've never used biscuit malt in anything before, always wanted to, but never have. so maybe a 1/2 lb. of it. i thought about both aromatic and victory, but they seem to dark, plus i want to keep it fairly simple, if i don't i'll go overboard on the malt end.

A couple quick thoughts popped in my head (which may not even help):
- Sounds like you are interested in a Pale Ale, i.e. British. They tend to be less hoppy and more balanced.
- I think your grist may be a bit complex, but in any case I would add some two-row. The Munich will self-convert but not have extra diastatic power, I'm not sure the Biscuit will fully convert itself, and I'm positive the carapils will not. 1lb of biscuit may be quite a bit of bicuity flavor based on my recollection of it.
- Don't remember the BU:GU ratio for British PA's from Daniels DGB, but I will try to remember to look at it tonight unless someone beats me to it.

will a lb. of 2-row supply the necesary enzymes?

BTW i'm doing a mini-mash because i'm pissed at my ML-tun but i definitely want to use the biscuit, which i know has no diastatic enzymes. and like i said, i've never done one, don't know the typical ratios. but i will drop the biscuit to a 1/2 lb.

and yes i am in interseted in british pale ales. As i went around tasting pales at a fest last weekend it occured to me that too many taste the same (2-row , crystal and the three C's) and none are very well balanced. One caught my attention, and it tastes almost like a fat tire but not as malty or sweet, with nice fruity and woodsy hop flavors (but not overtly citrusy like all the others), combined with a good bready malt background. the balance of the beer was impeccable. Absolutely the most intersting (and best) pale ale i've had in a long time. So i'm basing this recipe on that beer, knowing for sure that they use N. Brewer and simcoe, as well as other hops i can't remember.

Don't have the diastatic power of 2-row in my head, and I'm scurryin' to a meeting, but if you google 2-row diastatic power you're sure to find out how many adjuncts a lb of 2-row would convert.

drengel said:

cool, i've never used biscuit malt in anything before, always wanted to, but never have. so maybe a 1/2 lb. of it. i thought about both aromatic and victory, but they seem to dark, plus i want to keep it fairly simple, if i don't i'll go overboard on the malt end.

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a 1/2lb. - 3/4lb. of victory will really increase the malt flavor. It will darken considerably, but if you use the lightest crystal youll be alright.

i wouldnt do both aromatic AND victory.

have you considered using different yeast?
i dont use cali ale save for porters, i opt for east coast ale, or an english yeast.
you could try an irish ale for a different pa flavor too. Something with a bit more balls then boring ass cali ale...

Bjorn Borg said:

have you considered using different yeast?
i dont use cali ale save for porters, i opt for east coast ale, or an english yeast.
you could try an irish ale for a different pa flavor too. Something with a bit more balls then boring ass cali ale...

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i was just thinking the same thing, english ale maybe, never used east coast ale, it's probably worth a shot.

I'm going to stick just to a 1/2 lb. of biscuit on this one, no victory or aromatic...maybe next time.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Don't remember the BU:GU ratio for British PA's from Daniels DGB, but I will try to remember to look at it tonight unless someone beats me to it.

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He doesn't seem to really seperate EPAs, APAs, and Bitters consistently.

For commercial PAs and Bitters, he gives a BU:GU average of .80.

He says that four commercial PAs had an average of .89 BU:GU, which contradicts the style guidelines, which would indicate BU:GU of .45 to .71.

6 NHC 2nd-round PAs averaged .91 BU:GU.

(No apparant distinction between EPA and APA)

So the data is all over the map.

In addition to the various comments on the grain bill, I would also recommend using a British yeast strain for a more balanced PA. The IPA that I'm almost done drinking was about 1.065, 50 IBUs, and wyeast 1098 British Ale. It was excellent and very balanced.

(Yes, I have the book at my office. Good Lord, I'm a geek.)

yeah i forgot to mention that it should be around 1.052 and 44 IBU's. i guess its more of an ESB than a pale ale, and I will be using some sort of english strain now.

drengel said:

will a lb. of 2-row supply the necesary enzymes?

BTW i'm doing a mini-mash because i'm pissed at my ML-tun

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Been there.

drengel said:

and yes i am in interseted in british pale ales.

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Looks like you need to replace that cali yeast with an english strain then. I've used Burton Ale yeast before and it was good. Very malty yeast.

I like the wyeast 1968 London as well. This is one style where you have loads of great yeasts to choose from!

I cant believe im saying this but, i think you might want to reduce the ibu's a tad...44 is kind of high with an 1.052 og. If your after balance i would go with under 40.

As a reference i have an east coast pa im drinking now, and it has about 37 ibu's with on og of 1.050. And its definitly balanced towards the bitter end.

and i second Dudes 'Burton ale' yeast that strain rocks!!!

I'm not actually sure on the IBU's, I used pro-mash and they don't have simcoe hops in the system, so i just used nugget as a replacement for IBU calculation cause i believe the AAU% is similar at 13%, but they might be higher than the simcoes, I'm not sure. It might need a little scale back i agree, i mainly was trying to use an even oz. of each hop so none sit in my freezer forever til they go bad. I tend to like pale ales in the 30-40 range, so 44 is high for what i like. I'm sick right now, and decided to make up recipes to kill time, but my heads not quite working right due to the flu...I'll probably come up with a refined version and post it in a hour or so, thanks all for the advice.


edit-- any thoughts on whitbread yeast? anyone used it, i've used london and english ale yeast from white labs, but want to try a new english strain.

drengel said:

edit-- any thoughts on whitbread yeast? anyone used it, i've used london and english ale yeast from white labs, but want to try a new english strain.

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Never used that...theres soo many: southwold, bedford, premium bitter, Klassic ale, etc...thier all good im sure. I just dont like the really DRY yeasts.

i was actually thinking of using the super-high gravity ale yeast on a normal gravity ale, just for sh*ts and giggles.

The flu??? its like 70 degrees here!...oh wait im in virginia beach. oops...

p.s. i hear ya about the use of parts of an ounce...i hate when recipes call for .75 ounces for 60 min, i just throw in the whole ounce for 50 minutes or whatever the conversion is.

Here's a new version:

3 lb. extra light DME

.5 lb. crystal 20L
.25 lb. crystal 40L
1 lb. 2-row
2 lb. munich
.5 lb. biscuit malt
1 lb. carapils

Northern Brewer: .25 oz. at 60, 30, 15
Simcoe: .25 oz. at 60, 15, and dry
Willamette: .25 oz. at 15, 5
.5 oz. dry

English Ale yeast strain (whichever kind they have at the store)

Now it's at 1.055 with the added lb. of 2-row, and 38 IBUs with the scaled back hops.

i would sub a lbs. of crystal for the cara-pils...crystal will give you body, and a little sweetness to balance the hops the cara-pils lacks.

Bjorn Borg said:

i would sub a lbs. of crystal for the cara-pils...crystal will give you body, and a little sweetness to balance the hops the cara-pils lacks.

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oops...i forgot to write down the crystal. editing.....

drengel said:

oops...i forgot to write down the crystal. editing.....

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are you using pro-mash for the ibu calculation?

i know the default utilization is 35 percent for 60 min. which is alot higher then i get with partial-mash (4 gallon) boils. I rate my utilization at 22 percent. i just crunched your hop numbers using 25 % u. for 60 min. and got an ibu of like 26 (8 a.a.u for the n brewer and 12 for the simcoe)

What size boil are you doing?

yeah I'm using pro-mash. i'll probably do a full 5 gallon boil, but i'm not sure what kind of AA utilization that entails.

thanks