Overpitching vs hops

Is it possible that to high of pitching rate could cause a serious lack of hop flavor? I seem to have an issue with my hoppy beers and very little hop flavor after ferment and in the finished product.

Hop oils will stick to yeast and flock out with the yeast. Over pitching will remove more hop oils than a correct sized pitch.

uright said:

Hop oils will stick to yeast and flock out with the yeast. Over pitching will remove more hop oils than a correct sized pitch.

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I would question this, as an over pitched wort would result in less additional yeast growth than a properly pitched wort. My thinking is that the total amount of yeast would be the same once both growth phases are over.

uright said:

Hop oils will stick to yeast and flock out with the yeast. Over pitching will remove more hop oils than a correct sized pitch.

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I use the mr malty calc and seem to get the proper attenuation. It really just seems to be on the hoppy beers.

Mr. Malty's stir plate starter calculator under estimates the yeast growth in many cases. This might be the source of the over pitch. Also yeast growth is limited by available sugar, not yeast population.

Here is some information on pitch rate vs attenuation and cell growth:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/03/side-by-side-starters-4-of-4.html

and some more information on pitch rate vs cell growth:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/01/starter-cell-growth.html

WoodlandBrew said:

Also yeast growth is limited by available sugar, not yeast population.

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Won't a finite amount of wort only support a finite number of yeast cells, regardless of the number of cells in the initial population? In other words, if the wort only supports a total population of x yeast cells, I don't think it matters if the initial population was 1/2x or 1/8x. They will multiply only to the extent that food source can support.

jmf143 said:

Won't a finite amount of wort only support a finite number of yeast cells, regardless of the number of cells in the initial population? In other words, if the wort only supports a total population of x yeast cells, I don't think it matters if the initial population was 1/2x or 1/8x. They will multiply only to the extent that food source can support.

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That's true if very high cell densities (300 million per ml and above) but not really seen in starters, and even less in beer fermentation. The limiting factor is often available extract and to a lesser degree metabolized oxygen.

nstnate said:

Is it possible that to high of pitching rate could cause a serious lack of hop flavor? I seem to have an issue with my hoppy beers and very little hop flavor after ferment and in the finished product.

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I would look to other things first:

--Recipe formulation: are you overwhelming the hops with malt or yeast flavors? Try more neutral malts and yeasts.

--Water chemistry: you might try increasing the sulfate balance in your water to accentuate the hops. Be careful and do research first, though.

--Process:

-Try first wort hopping.
-Are you getting a good vigorous rolling boil to really isomerize the hops?
-Try adding more flavor hops at flameout. Make sure you are chilling rapidly--the longer the hops stay in contact with hot wort, the more you are losing flavor from them, and only getting bitterness.
-Try a Hop Rocket--you can filter your beer through it on the way to the fermenter.
-Try dry hopping, or serving through a Randall.

--Fermentation and storage:

-Try fermenting your beers on the cooler side, and make sure you are storing them cool.


--the hops themselves: Are they fresh? Are they noted for their flavor? Maybe try a different variety, or using whole hops instead of pellets (or vice versa)

OG 1.048 FG 1.008, 5.5gal batch
RO water
7.75lb 2 row
1.5lb munich
.5lb carapils

7g fuggle 90
7g chinook 30
20g cascade 0
20 centennial 0

mash 145/ 155/ mashout
002 at 66f

14g gypsum
6g epsom
4g cacl
2g nacl

Three notes on that recipe:

1) You have about 0.25 oz of bittering hops. Fuggle are low alpha acid, 5%ish tops. That might give you 5 IBUs (Tinseth) at that gravity. Your Chinook addition probably added more IBUs. You didn't get much hops flavor because that isn't very hoppy.

2) WLP002 is very flocculant. Observation regarding hoppiness falling out with yeast are very real.

3) Your flameout hops mostly contributed aroma, not bitterness or flavor.

I've been interested lately in comparing IBU calculations and understanding factors applied in each formula. Here is a screenshot of possible Tinseth & Rager IBU estimations for your beer. This is a rare example where calculations agree at about 10 IBU.

Looks like just too little bittering hops.

lockwom said:

Three notes on that recipe:

1) You have about 0.25 oz of bittering hops. Fuggle are low alpha acid, 5%ish tops. That might give you 5 IBUs (Tinseth) at that gravity. Your Chinook addition probably added more IBUs. You didn't get much hops flavor because that isn't very hoppy.

2) WLP002 is very flocculant. Observation regarding hoppiness falling out with yeast are very real.

3) Your flameout hops mostly contributed aroma, not bitterness or flavor.

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Sorry there is a 30min whielpool, so bump all those times up 20 to 30 min. Should have plenty flavor. The recipe and addition times are from a commercial brewery.