ajdelange said:What is mash temp (beta glucan rest, protein rest, saccharification rest)?
In any case 5.4 - 5.6 is OK at room temp.
I've measured it at 5.6 but that was one sample from one maltster. I did a stout a couple of weeks back using it as the base with 10% roast barley and got 5.6 for the mash pH which certainly suggests that the MO only pH was higher. And I'm sure 5.77 wasn't just pulled out of the air. IOW it varies and the only way to know what you are dealing with is to make a measurement.
Was that using R/O water, or did you add back some minerals?
I use R/O water with either a tsp CaCl or CaSO4 per 5 gallons depending on beer style and I typically get a reading of 5.0-5.2 for recipes without much roast/crystal malt, and a reading of 4.8-5.0 for recipes with 10%+ roast/crystal malt. I do all of my readings at ~25C with a meter that is calibrated at ~25C. This data is over about 20-25 batches of different recipes.
Sorry to partially hi-jack, but I guess it is slightly on topic.
I don't question that you saw what you saw but I don't see how it is possible. I measure MO at 5.6 or higher in DI/RO water, as noted above. In RO water with 5 grams of CaCl2 or gypsum a base malt only mash would be expected to come in at 0.08, call it 0.10 lower than the DI water mash or, in the example I measured, minimum 5.5. And that is about where I measure MO mashes even with a fair amount of colored malts (Barley wines and stouts are the only non German ales I do). It always takes an acid addition to get below this. And it is consistent with what's in the brewing texts and, AFAIK, other peoples' experiences. So I am totally mystified as to how you could be getting as low as 5.0 for what is essentially a base malt mash.
I can't really decipher his water chemistry since he is using teaspoons and he might as well be using hand-grenades. A scale is the only (modestly) accurate way to know what you're adding to your water. At least he has a consistent way of measuring his additions and I suppose that counts for something!
PS: Machine, since you're using RO water, you don't need to acidify or add minerals to the sparge. What you're doing is fine.
I've measured it at 5.6 but that was one sample from one maltster. I did a stout a couple of weeks back using it as the base with 10% roast barley and got 5.6 for the mash pH which certainly suggests that the MO only pH was higher. And I'm sure 5.77 wasn't just pulled out of the air. IOW it varies and the only way to know what you are dealing with is to make a measurement.
12.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (3.0 SRM) Grain 90.57 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.77 %
0.50 lb Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 3.77 %
0.25 lb Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 1.89 %
This one came in at 5.10 with R/O + 1 tsp CaSO4 per 5 gallons. This one I brewed at a friends house and I had him double check with his pH meter for the very same reason that I posted in this thread. I have been suspect of my meter or my methods. Both readings with both meters were +/-.03 pH of each other.
10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 86.96 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.35 %
0.50 lb Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 4.35 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4.35 %
This one came in at 5.35 with 1/2 tsp CaCl and 1/2 tsp CaSO4 per 5 gallons.
7.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) (MO) Grain 73.68 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 10.53 %
0.50 lb Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 5.26 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 5.26 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.63 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (200.0 SRM) Grain 2.63 %
This one came in at 4.9 with 1 tsp CaCl and 1/2 tsp Pickling Lime added to the water the night before. I corrected with another 1/2 tsp Pickling Lime and checked post boil going into the fermenter and it was 5.23.
My beers have been coming out great regardless, but it has been bugging me. I have sealed containers that I store the buffers in between calibrations. I do spray the electrode off with DI water and shake off the excess before going between buffers. I go through buffers every couple of months.
I use an MW-102 meter with auto calibration and temp correction.
I have not checked the R/O water before mashing. I will make a note to do that with the next batch.
I have to admit that my results are similar to Machine's when using RO water. I can produce and measure fairly low mash pH under some grist conditions.
I can't really decipher his water chemistry since he is using teaspoons and he might as well be using hand-grenades. A scale is the only (modestly) accurate way to know what you're adding to your water. At least he has a consistent way of measuring his additions and I suppose that counts for something!
About a year ago, I made an English Mild that included 20% crystal malts in the grist.... I doughed in and measured a room-temp mash pH of 4.9!
At that time, I was under the impression that the mash chemistry had a natural buffering tendency to limit the pH drop at about the 5.2 range.
I do not know why these empirical results differ from AJ's and Kohlbach's,
IOW it takes a good cal but when you recheck cal 10 minutes later it is off 0.05 or 0.10.
I have a sack of MO and a sack of Rahr 2-row. I could do a small DI mash and test the results.
A couple of oz. Put them in a small beaker or glass, mix with water at temperature sufficient to get to somewhere near your intended strike temperature, put the glass or beaker in a water bath and allow some time for everything to stabilze.What is the smallest reasonable mash size that I could do to get comparable results? Keeping in mind that it will just get tossed when done.
That might add something to the discussion. Calcium chloride isn't all calcium chloride. It usually contains some calcium hydroxide.I think I still have a gallon or so of treated water left from the other day's brewing session. R/O with 1 tsp CaCl + 1/2 tsp Lime. I could test both the DI and the treated water.
I will grab some fresh buffers at the shop and see if it makes a difference.
This may be the case, but I usually calibrate immediately before checking pH the first time. Only the time it takes me to spray off the electrode with DI water usually. I will have to try checking it a few minutes later.
A couple of oz. Put them in a small beaker or glass, mix with water at temperature sufficient to get to somewhere near your intended strike temperature, put the glass or beaker in a water bath and allow some time for everything to stabilze.
I was able to test the Rahr and the Crisp MO today. I did 56 grams of crushed malt and added to 150 ml of water. I tested with DI water and got 5.75 for the MO and 5.7 for the Rahr.
I wouldn't expect much difference unless there is something really weird about the RO machine and I mean really weird such as they cleaned the membranes with acid and didn't flush them.I will have to test in the future with the R/O water, as I didn't have any left from last brew session.
I did grab some fresh buffers from midwest supplies yesterday, so maybe that could have something to do with my previous results?
I did use some little plastic cups to hold the buffer solution this time rather than the little jars that I usually use. Perhaps the other jars may be contaminated for some reason. I don't think so, but not sure what else could be a factor.
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