Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

I'm intrigued by the ECY13 yeast which is listed as the highly rated yeast from the tasting panel in BLAM, at least I think it is. I am tempted to brew this recipe with the ECY13 after I brew a tripel with it first. However because I have so much of this sugar on the way (20lbs free for BOS) I will do another with WLP530 and then try one with ECY13.

What brewery is the source for the ECY13 yeast? I haven't been able to find anything.

I'm not sure. I found a thread on Babble Belt stating it is the old CL320 strain. Where that is sourced from I do not know.

saq said:

I think you find you'll be pretty disappointed in the Rochefort yeast, it is one of THE cleanest Belgian yeasts out there. They get a lot of the "quad" esters by adding small amounts of black pepper and coriander, neither of which belong in a "westy" style quad.

Trust in the Westmalle yeast, pretty much EVERYONE who makes killer quads anywhere uses Westmalle yeast.

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Thanks for the advice, I value the input and experience.

My gut reaction was to go out and try to re-brew it immediately, but I think I'm going to take some time and mull it over for a bit. There are several variables here that might help to dial it in better.

ECY13 is made by East Coast and can be bought here if its available: http://www.solarhomebrew.com/East_Coast_Yeast.html

I know who ECY is, I was wondering where they got the ECY13.
If it came from CL320 back in the day, its probably the westmalle yeast of a different generation. Brewtek called it west flanders yeast and there is only one trappist monestary in west flanders...

the babble belt poster who said it was CL320 is the the guy who does East Coast yeast, so if he says it is CL320, then it is.

Somebody should go on ECYs facebook page (I don't have/do facebook) and ask him what the brewery of origin for ECY13 is. I can't find an email address for Al.

That's what I was thinking too. I could not find anyone claiming where it was from though. Maybe I'll do a 12gal batch and split the same wort between the two yeasts.

When using D-180 syrup, when do you add it to the boil and what effect will adding it at different times in the boil produce?

anyone add the syrup after pitching? I was thinking of brewing this weekend, and my syrup isn't scheduled to come in until monday...

I would add the syrup as late in the boil as possible to retain a lot of the awesome delicate flavors it has.

Adding all the syrup after pitching could be difficult as you might get some that doesn't dissolve. If you add it slowly over a few days while the fermentation is active it will probably get mixed in there real well.

Your only option would be to draw off some beer and mix the syrup in a pitcher. Maybe do it in two separate additions back to back to ensure you get good and dissolved. The oxygenation shouldn't harm the beer.

I added mine after pitching. I just bottled it last week so it'll be a while before I have some feed back.

I have the new world grains crushed, but I'm second guessing what syrup to use. I have a pound of d2, and a pound of csi 45. I can get anything. What do you all think? Thanks!

dale1038 said:

I have the new world grains crushed, but I'm second guessing what syrup to use. I have a pound of d2, and a pound of csi 45. I can get anything. What do you all think? Thanks!

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I think the darker will better compete (balance) the high alcohol levels in this batch. More character and flavor in the D2 than the 45. I haven't brewed this recipe with 45 but have tasted it and it is a lot different than D2. It is more caramel lighter vs. chocolate, roasty etc. That said I am sure it would still make a good brew.

You definitely want to do D1/D90 at least, and a mix with D1/D90 and D2/D180.

The ingredients for new world shows 80 and 40 srm which is why I grabbed the 45. What about 1 lb of d2 and 2 pounds of homemade dark syrup?

I may postpone my brew day and go grab a couple pounds of the csi d-180?

Go for it with the 45 and 90. That is what the original recipe said and that is pretty much the best one I've made so far. I may have to try it again soon just as is.

Done and done. Thanks for the quick response. I'll report back.

Wonder what 1lbs each of 45, 90 and 180 would be like...

saq said:

Wonder what 1lbs each of 45, 90 and 180 would be like...

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Haha - I can hear the wheels turning and the gears grinding!

saq said:

Wonder what 1lbs each of 45, 90 and 180 would be like...

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Well, I'll give it a go! I'm doing the csi 45, 90, 180. Just mashed in. I'll report back.

dale1038 said:

Done and done. Thanks for the quick response. I'll report back.

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Dale, this sounds like an interesting turn of the recipe. We're very interested in the results of the mix as well.

CSI said:

Dale, this sounds like an interesting turn of the recipe. We're very interested in the results of the mix as well.

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Great! Just for an update, everything went well. Pitched a 1.6L starter with no aeration to stress the yeast like saq suggested. Og was 1.082 which is what I planned knowing I would never get the attenuation and FG without aerating. Went down to 1.018 after 5 days. Moved to 65 degrees for 2 days to finish at 1.013. Secondaried and moved to 55 degrees.

My only question now is whether or not to use some more csi-180 to bottle with?

Oh, BTW this stuff was already delicious when I sampled it.

Thinking about trying this with the one of the current white lab platinum strains- WLP 545- belgian strong ale. Most of the descriptions i've read describe it as having good attenuation with a flavor profile emphasizing on the dark fruits (plums, dates, raisins, etc.) Sounds like it might be a good candidate...any opinions?

edit: the one thing i'm worried about is attenuation. The WLp545 is rated at 78-85, while wlp530 is 75-80. I normally don't nit pick too much about details, but it will cost a fair amount of money to brew this and i'd rather not end up 5 gallons of decent beer when it could be great.

It's not hard to get a quad recipe like this to 84% attenuation and desirably more. Give it a shot and see!

I used the 545 strain in a tripel last year and only brought the temps up to about 75 degrees. It had intense fruity esters and high in phenolics. I think it would throw the balance off personally, and I had bulk aged the tripel for the same amount of time as this quad recipe. I'm not saying to not go for it because they are different recipes but just letting you know you might want to be restrained with the temps a little.

smokinghole said:

I used the 545 strain in a tripel last year and only brought the temps up to about 75 degrees. It had intense fruity esters and high in phenolics. I think it would throw the balance off personally, and I had bulk aged the tripel for the same amount of time as this quad recipe. I'm not saying to not go for it because they are different recipes but just letting you know you might want to be restrained with the temps a little.

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Thanks for the info. Did you start it in the 60s then ramp it up to 75 at the end? or start warmer? I'm still on the fence about using this yeast in this beer, but i've still got a vial i'd like to try in something

I started in the high 60s and brought it up 75. I then bulk aged it in my 30 degree garage for 5-6 weeks.

smokinghole said:

I started in the high 60s and brought it up 75. I then bulk aged it in my 30 degree garage for 5-6 weeks.

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Thanks again. I'm going to play it safe and pick up some WLP530 today. Maybe i'll try the WLP545 in a christmas themed dubbel or something instead.

Mashing in right now. Went with the NW recipe with 2lbs of D-180 syrup. 1.8L starter of WLP530 in the fridge ready to decant and pitch. Hit the mash temp dead on at 150. I plan to chill to 65, let it rise naturally and by day 2-3 use the brew belt to get it up into the low 80s if needed.

Edit: Hit the gravity pretty much dead on- 5.5g of 1.089-90. Chilled it a little too much (62) but tossed the brew belt on and got it up to 65. Now playing the waiting game for fermentation to take off. I went ahead and put the blow-off tube on to avoid waking up to a mess in the morning.

Edit2: This thing took off about 12hrs after pitching. Luckily i put on the blow-off tube or it would have been a mess. I tried dropping in some fermcap, but it's still tossing out a good bit of yeast/trub. Temps are up to about 76 now, they've been steadily increasing by 1 degree every 2-3 hours.

Edit3: About 28hrs in and temps around around 77-78. Seem to have plateaued as the steady temp increase per few hrs has stopped. Will keep monitoring it tonight. If no increase by tomorrow morning, will turn on the brew belt.

Edit4: Nearly 50hrs after pitching. Temps increased to 80 degrees overnight, but had a little trouble maintaining that since ambient is in the 60's. Added the brew belt and set temp to 82 +/- 1 degree.

Edit5: About 55hrs in now, temps controlled at 82 degrees. Holding this steady and playing the waiting game for the next 3-4 days.

Edit6: 100hrs into fermentation. Last 2-3 days temps have been held at 82 degrees. Pulled a sample out today, gravity at 1.020. Still lots of krausen on the surface and co2 being pushed out of the airlock, so i'm optimistic that it will drop to the expected FG in a couple days. The color is milky brown due to the yeast, but the taste and aroma are surprisingly very nice. I was apprehensive about fermenting in the 80s, but the flavor is clean with no detectable fusel alcohols. I pick up quick a bit of dark candi syrup in the aroma and flavor, both of which are quite excellent considering it's only been a little over 4 days since pitching.

So I brewed the New World version of this with 1.5lb D1 and 1.5lb D2. It doesn't have the complex burnt sugar profile that the real W12 has. Anyone have any ideas on how to bump up that brown sugar/burnt sugar/molasses taste? Should I just go 3 lb D2 next time?

I wouldn't really say that Westvleteren 12 has a burnt sugar character to it. When did you add the candi syrup? You could have boiled off some of the volatiles.
I've done the recipe with 3lbs of D2 and found it lacking in complexity and have gone back towards doing d1/d2 combos or equivalent.
Lower specialty malts will bring out the character of the candi syrup more, try the old world recipe next time.

Alright subbing to this. I have some plans to brew something like this soon.

I have not done the new world recipe but I loved the old world recipe. I have used D2 from Belgian Candi and I have used D180 from CSI. The D180 is a bit smoother as a syrup I think, the D2 has an ever so slightly chalky taste/feel compared to D180.

I am brewing this recipe up again soon with some new hops I picked up. I will be brewing using Legacy hops and Strisselspalt hops. I am also considering some Serebrianka hops with the last hops. They are very low AA but have an nice and interesting flavor and aroma.

I have a question pertaining to the fermentation schedule.

After cooling the wort to 65F and pitching the starter, the instructions are to allow the temperature of the wort to "self rise" to 82F.

At what ambient temperature should I be allowing my wort to self rise to 82?

If I allow an ambient temperature of 81, obviously I am going to achieve the max temperature relatively quickly. If I allow an ambient temperature of 60, I may not ever reach 82.

Is there any information on the ambient fermentation chamber air temp at the Westvleteren brewery during the self-rise phase of fermentation? If not, I would be curious to know what other brewers who have had success with this recipe allow.

Thanks!

When I last brewed this I used a water immersion technique. I stuck my fermentor in a 25gal party tub and filled it with water. Then I used an immersion aquarium heater to pump up the temp a few degrees every 8 hours or so till I hit a height of 85. Then I left it go for a day or to and transferred it on top the last pound of D180 in a 6gal fermentor. That sat at room temp to finish fermenation for a week or two. I couldn't bulk age at 50 so I let it go at room temp for 3 weeks and then stuck it in my fridge for 4 weeks.

Also when I did this I did not use an airlock until I went to secondary. I used a 10gal corny to ferment in and just kept a paper towel tied onto the opening to prevent anything from getting in the fermentor. I also did not oxygenate the beer due to the sort of open fermentation I used.

smokinghole said:

When I last brewed this I used a water immersion technique. I stuck my fermentor in a 25gal party tub and filled it with water. Then I used an immersion aquarium heater to pump up the temp a few degrees every 8 hours or so till I hit a height of 85. Then I left it go for a day or to and transferred it on top the last pound of D180 in a 6gal fermentor. That sat at room temp to finish fermenation for a week or two. I couldn't bulk age at 50 so I let it go at room temp for 3 weeks and then stuck it in my fridge for 4 weeks.

Also when I did this I did not use an airlock until I went to secondary. I used a 10gal corny to ferment in and just kept a paper towel tied onto the opening to prevent anything from getting in the fermentor. I also did not oxygenate the beer due to the sort of open fermentation I used.

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When you say room temp do you mean 65, 70, 75 or what? Also, don't you think that using a heater to reach 85, you are missing the point of "self rise"?

I don't care if I'm missing the point of self rise. This is more controllable than doing a true self rise. Room temp meaning 70.