Poor head and thin body with US05 and Maris Otter

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QuercusMax

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I've done two AG brews with MO and US05, and both of them turned out watery and with little to no head. The one MO/US05 beer I didn't have this issue with had Carapils (actually Cara 8) in it.

I mashed them at 154 and fermented in the mid 60s. There are no particular differences in my technique between these and my other AG batches, which don't have this issue - I made a low gravity saison (1.032 OG) which has a fantastic pillowy head, with nothing but 2-row and Munich.

Here are the recipes for these problem batches:

Irish Red:
6lbs Maris Otter
6oz C40
6oz C120
6oz Roasted Barley
OG 1.044 (4.5 gallons)

Mild:
2.5 lb Maris Otter
.33 c60
.25 c120
.25 chocolate rye 200L
OG ~1.034 (didn't measure very well)

The grain bills are pretty similar, you'll notice. Any thoughts? Should I mash higher, or just suck it up and add carapils?

I'm not sure what maltster the Mild's MO is (bulk bin at my LHBS), but the Red was Munton's.
 
First I want to preface and say that I've never used cara-pils in any of my recipes, though my buddy I brew with regularly dumps cara-pils into nearly all his recipes. I produce beers with nice heads every time. He gets huge, out of control head on his beers. I'm a new brewer, but cara-pils seems gimmicky to me. I can see a few instances where it would be helpful, but then again, it's all about how much head YOU want on YOUR beer.

Your red looks good, especially with the crystal in there (nearly a pound) I don't see why you're not getting a head on the beer.

Full disclosure, I've never bottled anything, I keg all my beers, so if there's an issue on the bottling side of the equation, then I'm of no help.

We have used US05 plenty of times (our house strain, if you will), and have never had any issues with head. I've used the Munton's MO plenty of times, and we mash anywhere from 151-155 typically.

My immediate inclination is to say that maybe something is impeding the head of these beers. Maybe some extra sanitizer in the bottles, or it got mixed when going into the bottling bucket.

My only real recommendation is to brew another batch! I'd keep it simple, base malt, and some crystal variety. Mash a little lower, around 152. That's it. Be diligent about your sanitation and go from there. All the variables in your situation, I've encountered and had no issues.

Good luck, and keep us posted.
 
I am definitely going to keep using MO - I have 30 pounds of it. I love the flavor, I just am not sure what's up with these two beers. It may be a total coincidence with these two, I will grant you.

I just poured a glass of the red, and it did form a head when I poured aggressively, but it dissipated quickly.

I do agree with you about the carapils. I have an extract IPA which I steeped some carapils in, and it is insane. I thought it was infected at first, but no, it's just that wacky carapils. Foam will start pouring out of the bottle on its own. I believe Briess uses carapils in their extracts, so I think I basically doubled up on it. On the other hand, the MO-based Amber with 2oz carapils for a 3gal batch is perfect. I used US05 in that as well.

I would be surprised if the yeast had much to do with it, but it was a common factor I figured I should mention.
 
Two pretty low gravity beers. I tend to much bigger beers myself but when I do anything below 1.050 I use carapils or adjuncts to thicken the body - unmalted wheat, barley, rye,or (rarely) oats all work well for me. I also mash much higher and carbonatet lower.
 
Have all these beers been 4.5 gal batches? Just 6 lbs and 2.5 lbs seem to be a little shy on grain bill to me, but I may be misunderstanding your recipe and questions too.
 
The Mild was a 2.5 gallon batch. The Red was going to be a 5-gallon partial mash but I got high enough efficiency (was shooting for 1050) I decided to make a slightly lower volume session beer instead, since measuring extract is a pain in the rear (I have a 33lb growler I mostly use for starters).
 
Two things come to mind offhand: first off, that the efficiency is rather low overall, and second, that you may be mashing too low. So, the questions become, what sort of crush are you getting, and have you calibrated your thermometer(s) recently?
 
Low efficiency? I think you must be mistaken. Both of them were at least 80% efficiency by my calculations. Low gravity, sure, but that was deliberate. My crush is great - I always get at least 80% efficiency. The mild was with the mill at my LHBS, the red was using my corona, and was almost reduced to flour.

I have two thermometers and they agree with each other (one an instant-read digital, one analog dial thermometer).

I think mashing at 158 is my best option at this point. Also maybe doing a no-sparge?
 
Not trying to over simplify it but have you checked ur glassware as well? Do you have issues with other beers in the same glasses, such as craft beers or any other home brews?

Also, what sugar did you use to bottle carbonate, at what time and how long have they been sitting?
 
Both beers were around 70-73% efficiency using a beer tool calculator, only according to your OG's and grain bill tho...

I'd maybe check glassware as well. That can have a major impact on head. What is the massive fascination with head anyway?
 
I used plain table sugar to carbonate (I've literally done this with every single beer I've ever made, other than those from a kit that included priming sugar). I used 1.5oz of table sugar for the mild, and 3.5oz for the red. The mild has been in the bottle for close to 6 weeks, while the red is only about 2.5 weeks in. They're definitely not overcarbonated.

I calculated my 80% efficiency based on what went into the kettle preboil, so 70% is probably about right when taking into account losses due to hot/cold break and hops.

As for glasses, I handwash them. I've poured a different beer with amazing long-lasting head into one of my glasses, rinsed it out with tap water, then poured a Red or Mild into the exact same glass.

I'm really more interested in the body than the head (wow, is there any way to say that that doesn't come out wrong?). I can deal with little to no head, but watery consistency is no good.
 
I was not trying to be snarky with my eff comment, sorry if it came out wrong. other than glassware, i'm at a loss for the body issue, other than these being low gravity beers, but even that shouldn't matter. try mashing even higher say closer to 156-158?
 
Are you certain your mash stays at temp for the entire time? I use a cooler and just learned that I am losing almost 4 degrees over the course of an hour.

Have you rinsed everything thoroughly? Soapy residue will kill head retention.

If you are mashing at 154+ and still having issues with body then there is something else wrong in your process.

Maybe water chemistry?
 
I think you should try a different yeast. You have low gravity beers and I wonder if you're getting too much attenuation. Do you happen to know the final gravity of these beers? The last mild I tried (and only one I was ever really happy with) used london ale III. I used Jamil's Mild recipe, but added .5 lb of flaked barley. It was pretty good. I think the yeast combined with a bit of flaked barley really helped the mouthfeel.

Water chemistry might also affect perception of body. You could try using RO water and add nothing but 1g of CaCl per gallon. I've had decent luck with that water on malt driven beers.

Lastly, how was carbonation? I've had beers that I slightly over carbed that came off thin.

good luck!
 
I tried the red again last night and I think it may be improving. I think i did a bad job of racking to my bottling bucket, and got a lot of crud. As the fines are settling, I think the body is improving? I've been listening to Brew Strong and I think I've heard at least 3 times Jamil tell the story of his Scottish 60 which was really thin and watery, but after sitting for a year turned out rich and full-bodied.

The red finished out at 1.013. I believe the mild was similar, but I used a refractometer so i can't really be totally sure of what it was, and my hydrometer is broken. Maybe I'll pour some into my test jar and let it go flat, when I get a new hydro?

For sure in the future i will use a different yeast for the mild. It was supposed to be S04, but I bought the wrong yeast.
 
Age definitely changes beers. Glad you're is getting better. These low gravity beers are tricky. You don't have much to work with! I think they are fun, though. Anyone can dump a pound of hops in a 8% beer. It takes a good brewer to make a 3.5% beer that tastes awesome. Cheers!
 
Have you thought about adding a bit of flaked wheat or barley into your lower gravity brews, or maybe some wheat malt? Mashing at a high temp would definitely makes less fermentable sugars and add body to the beer, but Im not sure if it would add protein to the beer to increase head retention. Also, don't confuse body and head retention. You can have a light bodied beer with a big lasting heads (Hefe's, Belgians, etc). Or a heavy body beer with little to no head (oatmeal stouts occasionally, english ale's). I think you need to focus on adding proteins/carbonation to the beer, not body to get that head you are looking for (yes, I see the jokes coming).
 
I'm not going to say that this is an accurate answer, but it certainly has some basis in fact.

M.O. is a British malt, and British malts are low in protein, and very well modified.

According to Greg Noonan (New Brewing Lager Beer), two of the main causes of lack of head are an excessive protein rest, and over-modified malt.

Most of my beers using Maris Otter have very little head, but that is intentional. I like what most Americans would call warm, flat beer.
If I need to increase the head, I use some flaked barley, or torrified wheat. There are other things such as wheat malt, and cara or crystal malts that have a similar affect.

As for a thin body, I find that a thick mash (1 qt / lb) makes a substantial difference. This mash thickness, and mashing at a temp of ~ 150F is traditional for UK brewers.

-a.
 

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