frustration setting in - beer getting worse

I've been brewing for a few years now and I am coming to the painful realization that my beers are getting worse, not better. I am not at the point of giving up, but I am quite frustrated at my lack of progress. Seems like in the beginning of all grain, simply using the free nelson beer calculator on line and manually fly sparging and pretty much guessing my way through the beers were turning out better. A stir plate, batch sparging, stainless steel, beer tools pro, temperature controlled fermentation later, things simply have not been as consistently good.
Anyone else go through this?

can you tell us what specifically about the beers is making them worse? All problems have a cause that can be fixed.

Yeah, what do you mean getting worse? That could mean a lot of things.

Several batches that tasted like bandaids - likely phenols, nearly zero hop aroma, minimal flavor, decent bitterness, NO luck with dry-hopping - seems like it is doing nothing.... Difficulty carbonating - typically under. I can't seem to get it together. A lot of them still have a slightly thin homebrewed taste as well.

I personally found out that as time went on, and more batches brewed, sanitization (in particular cleaning) became more important, i.e. soaking EVERYTHING in B-Brite/Oxi-free. After 35 batches I bought a new bucket and some problems cleared up.

Did you move recently and/or are using a different water source?

I went through a similar period where I think most of my equipment was progressively getting dirtier as I got lazier. I had like 3 phenolic dumpers in a row.

Do you treat your water in any manner.

I occasionally read about people tossing equipment that they've had off batches in, and I'm curious how necessary this is. Is doing this actually a necessary practice?

minsco1 said:

I occasionally read about people tossing equipment that they've had off batches in, and I'm curious how necessary this is. Is doing this actually a necessary practice?

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Plastic equipment eventually needs to be thrown out, its the nature of the beast.

kcinpdx said:

Several batches that tasted like bandaids - likely phenols, nearly zero hop aroma, minimal flavor, decent bitterness, NO luck with dry-hopping - seems like it is doing nothing.... Difficulty carbonating - typically under. I can't seem to get it together. A lot of them still have a slightly thin homebrewed taste as well.

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Bandaids is often from using chlorine to sanitize. PBW and Starsan are your friends...oxiclean if you don't want to pay for the higher quality of PBW. Like others said, if your hops and malt character aren't hitting like you want look into your water quality and adding brewing salts to style. Use instruments to track your process such as PH meters, refractometers, and hydrometers.

While brewing in many ways is art, you have to have a bit of scientist in you too. Know your numbers throughout the process. Use calculators to figure out carbonation. Thin mouthfeel is an issue I dealt with when I was learning the ropes and for me it often boiled down to proper carbonation more than anything. Homebrewed taste is as best I can tell result of beer that hasn't had the chance to clear. If you age your beer homebrew taste will settle disappear as sediment falls clear.

Gregscsu said:

Do you treat your water in any manner.

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typically yes - a campden tab and 2 tbsp of gypsum. Portland has very soft water and I do 10 gallon batches

I found that in the beginning I was brewing good beer and then I got lax in sanitation. Good sanitation is so crucial to good beer.

I'm jumping on the sanitation bandwagon too. I trade out tube like nobody's business, (hell, it's only 0.20/ft at lowes). I am terrible at washing things, so many of my postboil plastics only see a few brews before I swap em out....this really just means poly tubing and the occasional racking cane. Cheap insurance.

Anything plastic needs to be replaced every so often. I was getting increasingly bad off flavors for a while.

Swiched to fermenting in 1/4 bbl keg from a plastic bucket and problem solved.

1/2" ID silicone tubing is good stuff. Its a little expensive, but if you rinse it well after use it will last a long time. For blow off tubing though I still go with cheap vinyl stuff from Lowes b/c I need more flexible hose line that silicone.

i too was in the same position as the OP.

i had to take a step back, choose a simple tasty recipe (ed's haus pale), clean everything with oxyclean, new vinyl tubing, and brew to the best of my ability with all of my attention.

my brewing at the moment is the best ive ever done.

Pick one tried and true recipe from this forum in a style you like and brew it over and over until you feel good about it. This will take recipe formulation out of the equation. If your sanitation is good and you focus on your process you should be able to dial things fairly easily. The less variables in te equation, the easier it will be to get it right.

I think everything here has been covered. I personally find that tubing and raking canes where my enemies. Bottling bucket spigots, poppets on kegs and anything that has a crevice, thread or grooves for matter to collect or grow were the culprits.

If you are going to dump your vinyl tubing, consider silicone tubing and a stainless steel raking cane as both can be boiled after being cleaned.

You should find a brew buddy to get together with and look over your process. There may be something a fresh set of eyes will pick up on that youre looking over. I'm sure there are other brewers on this site from Portland.

Bensiff said:

..oxiclean if you don't want to pay for the higher quality of PBW.

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Bensiff, maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding was that these products clean different things. Specificaly, oxi will kill and clean organics, but not effect mineral deposits. PBW will loosen and clean mineral deposits, but isn't 100% on organics. I read how a number of people will clean with oxi, and then run PBW through once every 3-6 batches to take out any beer stone, etc..

To the op, i feel your pain...
I've experienced a similar phenomenon. I've been brewing for 3 years (2 extract and 1 all-grain). I'd like to think I make pretty good beer.
However, I tried a gumballhead clone, and my numbers were way low. I pitched old yeast and nothing happened for 2 days so I repitched. The finished beer had a strong phenolic, band-aid aroma and flavor.

But then I made a cream ale that ended up great. (i guess i can still make okay beer)

Again though, on a pale ale I've recently made, I get a sourish phenolic off-flavor. So now I start thinking it's my old Amarillo hops (both in the gumballhead and pale ale).

My most recent batch is a Rye IPA that is still fairly young, but I'm getting that subtle phenolic flavor again.

I use vinyl tube w/ my racking cane. Plastic fermenting buckets and corny kegs. All are somewhat old, but I use StarSan and soak and foam consistently.

Any ideas or suggestions?

GlenF said:

To the op, i feel your pain...
I've experienced a similar phenomenon. I've been brewing for 3 years (2 extract and 1 all-grain). I'd like to think I make pretty good beer.
However, I tried a gumballhead clone, and my numbers were way low. I pitched old yeast and nothing happened for 2 days so I repitched. The finished beer had a strong phenolic, band-aid aroma and flavor.

But then I made a cream ale that ended up great. (i guess i can still make okay beer)

Again though, on a pale ale I've recently made, I get a sourish phenolic off-flavor. So now I start thinking it's my old Amarillo hops (both in the gumballhead and pale ale).

My most recent batch is a Rye IPA that is still fairly young, but I'm getting that subtle phenolic flavor again.

I use vinyl tube w/ my racking cane. Plastic fermenting buckets and corny kegs. All are somewhat old, but I use StarSan and soak and foam consistently.

Any ideas or suggestions?

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Do you filter your water or use some campden to eliminate chlorine and chloramine? I found I was able to detect slight chlorophenols in my beers even when I was using filtered water when I was mixing up my starsan with unfiltered water. Now I filter any water that will be in the beer or touch the beer or something that touches the beer. That fixed it.

RegionalChaos said:

Bensiff, maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding was that these products clean different things. Specificaly, oxi will kill and clean organics, but not effect mineral deposits. PBW will loosen and clean mineral deposits, but isn't 100% on organics. I read how a number of people will clean with oxi, and then run PBW through once every 3-6 batches to take out any beer stone, etc..

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Oxi isn't a sanitizer, just a cleaner. PBW has kicked the crap out of all brewing deposits I have ever encountered leaving my equipment superbly clean and ready for sanitizer (Starsan for me). It is advertised to remove protein, carbon, and fatty acids so it will get your organics just fine. I think what you are seeing is people are using Oxi for standard cleaning because it is cheaper and gets the job done, but hit their equipment with PBW for things like beerstone. Either way you go you will still need to hit your equipment with sanitizer after cleaning though.

KingBrianI said:

Do you filter your water or use some campden to eliminate chlorine and chloramine? I found I was able to detect slight chlorophenols in my beers even when I was using filtered water when I was mixing up my starsan with unfiltered water. Now I filter any water that will be in the beer or touch the beer or something that touches the beer. That fixed it.

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I don't filter or treat my water (other than 5.2pH stabilizer). I moved a year ago, and that's when I started my AG brewing, so unless my town adds chlorine/ chloramines at inconsistent levels and times, water shouldn't be an issue because I've made good beers w/out the off flavor.

GlenF said:

I don't filter or treat my water (other than 5.2pH stabilizer). I moved a year ago, and that's when I started my AG brewing, so unless my town adds chlorine/ chloramines at inconsistent levels and times, water shouldn't be an issue because I've made good beers w/out the off flavor.

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Chlorine/chloramine levels are typically higher in the warmer months. Has there been a correlation between the off-flavors and the time of year they were brewed? A campden tablet is easy and cheap insurance against chlorophenols.

Actually, yea....the 1st off batch was in April
2nd a month ago
3rd (we'll see if it matures out) but 2 wks ago

Although I did make a cream ale between 1 and 2 w/ no off-flavor...

Sometimes temp plays a role in off beer tastes as well. If you bottle condition, do not get in a hurry to carbonate it by moving the bottles to a warmer climate. I did this with some really tasty irish red I made. Half of it I force carbonated it and the other half bottle conditioned. The force carb tasted incredible. Nice malty flavor that I really enjoyed and a little spice as well. So I let the bottle condition beer sit for a couple of months and look out. Bandaid and nasty phenols throughout. Yeast can throw off mad nasty flavors if you get them too warm.

Other than that, what everyone else has said on here about sanitize has been 100% Even the bottles go through a 3 step process.

1 - Clean bottles with 2x strength Oxy Clean then rinse well
2 - Spray inside with star san in a sprayer bottle.
3 - If you have a Dishwasher run them through hotest cycle with sani-rinse (use no soap)

The rest of the equipment I use oxy clean to clean the item then spray with star san before I use them.

You can do this and you will find the problem.

I really think it has more to do with fermentation temp. What are you using to control your ferm temps?

Are you waiting for the wort to be at 70F before pitching?
Are you controlling that initial spike in temp when fermentation is vigorous?

If not, your yeast are giving off unwanted flavors and fusel alcohols.

I've been having the same problem myself....

I went back to using a temp controlled chest freezer (instead of a 68F room), began using cornies to ferment in, and built a monster keg cleaner so I could be sure they were getting cleaned.

For me, no. I am not controlling ferm temps, but my basement sits right at 68-70 (which puts ferm temps at ~75, which is at the high end, i know)

The wort is usually around 80 when I pitch and slowly goes to ambient in my basement....so i guess temp might play a role here, which is great cause that adds another variable to the fray
NTL, thanks for the input!

The temps sound like the first thing I would correct if I were you. I've also gotten off flavors from re-pitching onto worn out yeast.

GlenF said:

The wort is usually around 80 when I pitch ...

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That could be your problem right there. Temp control was the cause of my issues, especially pitching too hot. Everything I've read suggests that the first 24 hours are critical and if anything you want to pitch 2 or 3 degrees below where you want it to be.

Edit: the second problem was that I wasn't pitching enough yeast. Pitching enough healthy yeast at 65 degrees and I'm regularly getting 80+% attenuation (with WLP001).

Sunday I did a thorough cleaning before brewing. I boiled all fittings - ball valves, nipples, QD's, pump head and high temp hose. I srubbed them with a toothbrush, then soaked them in iodophor. Judging from the crud in the pump head and BK ball valve, I am surprised that I had any good batches. We'll see how the next batch turns out.

Well good luck!
Keep us informed.

My Rye IPA is turning out alright (not a serious phenolic flavor or aroma)...but we'll see once it's fully carbed and the yeast has settle out

kcinpdx said:

Sunday I did a thorough cleaning before brewing. I boiled all fittings - ball valves, nipples, QD's, pump head and high temp hose. I srubbed them with a toothbrush, then soaked them in iodophor. Judging from the crud in the pump head and BK ball valve, I am surprised that I had any good batches. We'll see how the next batch turns out.

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Well I hope you have better luck this time!

FWIW - I had the same issue. It came down to the fact that I was making my brewing more complicated with additional equipment and processes that - while very useful - just made my brewing days long and fatiguing.

Since I have gone back to simple batch sparging (moved away from RIMS) my beers have gotten better, my brew days are shorter, and I have a lot less to clean.

I am in this boat right now.

My problems seemed to start when I went to 10g batches. I had cooling issues (IC not big enough), equipment issues (manifold came apart), possible salt addition problems (measuring grams on a 12lbs rated scale, now using teaspoon conversions).

My house recipe, BM Centennial Blonde, which had been brewed succesfully many time as 5g, is very bitter with very little malty/hoppy taste for the last 3 attempts as 10g.

I have the painful realization that sanitation is probably my problem.

I don't think it is anything on the boil side.

It could be on the fermentation side. I don't think it is my buckets since they don't have any scratches but I bought a new one anyway. My syphon hose has been swapped out but my autosyphon has not. Plus the bend broke off several brews ago leaving a jagged edge. I have a new one which I will start using.

I think my #1 problem is not sanitizing my kegs properly. I use the autosyphon to flush Oxyclean thru my picnic tap and line and diptube at the same time. Then I seal the keg and shake to clean the rest of the keg. I use the same routine with Iodophor for sanitizing the picnic tap and line, dip tube, and rest of keg. The problem I think comes in since the kegs may sit for a month with a gallon of Iodophor but not sealed under CO2 pressure. I am going to have to plan to clean and sanitize immediately before kegging.

Do I really have a bacterial infection? I don't know. I checked my final gravity after two weeks in the keg and I am still at 1.010. If the bacteria are eating sugar, it is not measureable. If anyone has an idea, I would love to hear it.

Thanks,
Steven

I too suspect fermentation temperatures could be a problem ?


Sounds like Sanitation was a problem but you also said the I word Iodophor and that definatly can leave a funk in beer if not rinsed well

KingBrianI said:

Chlorine/chloramine levels are typically higher in the warmer months. Has there been a correlation between the off-flavors and the time of year they were brewed? A campden tablet is easy and cheap insurance against chlorophenols.

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i have a consistent phenol flavor in most beers and i'm thinking it's either mash ph, fermentation or chloramine.
i treat the mash and sparge water with campden but was not treating the water i mix with starsan.
the starsan is cloudy almost immediately after i mix it.

this last batch of beer i brewed to try and beat this phenol thing, i brewed with RO water and added back the minerals i wanted (allowing my mash PH to surely be right and i'm also not sparging with 9.7ph water...though just a single batch sparge).
used yeast nutrient or the first time.
pitched a starter that was twice the size i normally pitch.
held the temperature of fermentation to as tight a tolerance as possible.

all thats left is to wait for two more weeks to bottle.

trying to decide if chloramine in just the water i mix starsan that i sanitize the racking cane, bottling bucket and bottles with would be enough to cause phenols...i'll probably mix a bucket of RO water with starsan and try to reuse that over a few batches...

rugman said:

I too suspect fermentation temperatures could be a problem ?


Sounds like Sanitation was a problem but you also said the I word Iodophor and that definatly can leave a funk in beer if not rinsed well

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also it seems mixing starsan a little strong could cause a bad flavor too.