I want to brew dark beers (Water report)
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as long as there is no chloromine, that looks like great water. Its low enough in ions you might be able to just follow the recommendations for RO water here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/
That is pretty nice water for brewing. But you are correct that its not well suited for brewing darker or more acidic grists. As mentioned above, the slaked lime (pickling lime) is one of the better alternatives for adding alkalinity. Just be careful in the amount of alkalinity added to mashing water. You don't want too much, as that is typically more damaging to beer flavor and quality than having too little alkalinity.
Baking soda is another alternative, but there is less latitude for adding alkalinity since you're also adding sodium. Sodium is OK for beer flavor at low levels, but can produce antagonistic flavor effects when sulfate and chloride are also elevated. I'm less enthused with baking soda, but it could be a decent alternative if the amount of needed alkalinity is minor.
Another option for brewing with this water is to use the Guinness method and withhold the dark grains from the main mash to avoid depressing the main mash pH. The only problem is that the wort pH in the kettle might be lower than desired when the dark grain steeped wort is added to the kettle.
Although the OP's water is approaching RO quality, the recommendations of the Water Primer don't provide guidance for brewing dark beers well.
Baking soda is another alternative, but there is less latitude for adding alkalinity since you're also adding sodium. Sodium is OK for beer flavor at low levels, but can produce antagonistic flavor effects when sulfate and chloride are also elevated. I'm less enthused with baking soda, but it could be a decent alternative if the amount of needed alkalinity is minor.
Another option for brewing with this water is to use the Guinness method and withhold the dark grains from the main mash to avoid depressing the main mash pH. The only problem is that the wort pH in the kettle might be lower than desired when the dark grain steeped wort is added to the kettle.
Although the OP's water is approaching RO quality, the recommendations of the Water Primer don't provide guidance for brewing dark beers well.
The amount of pickling lime needed in most cases is tiny. You really have to use a scale with 0.1 gram resolution to use lime without overdosing. Bru'n Water has the calculations for figuring out lime additions and the amount of alkalinity needed for a particular mash grist. There isn't a way to ballpark something as powerful (and dangerous) as a lime addition. Lime is definitely a mineral addition that unless you know exactly how much to add, don't add it at all. Overdosing with lime has very negative effects on beer quality.
Yes, that is definitely the easy way to do it. Crystals, black, chocolate, roast barley does not need to be mashed and the difference between doing it that way and successfully adjusting your alkalinity is subtle - any improvement from perfect water chemistry is overwhelmed by even minor fermentation issues. Definitely get a pH meter if you are going to think about adding alkalinity. If you don't want to mess around with pH meters, just brew and see how it turns out (either mashing everything or holding back dark grains).
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
No, don't hold back the dark grains. You need to add them and the acidity they bring in at one point or another.
Kai
Kai
Huh?
What do you recommend? I have similar water and I haven't had a mash that was too acidic that it was in dire need of adjustment (even a 70srm RIS was still in the 5.1 range) but the conventional wisdom (aka residual alkalinity) suggests that alkalinity is needed because of the acidic dark grains. Chasing a 0.1pH difference from optimal 5.2 on a 5 gallon batch seems like a lot of effort and risk for very very little reward. That said, I frequently cold steep the darks and add to the boil (as inspired by gordon strong's book). It seems to work well but its really hard to notice subtle differences when I'm brewing different recipes with different grains every week.
Um, 5.2 or lower (if measured at room temp) is far too low for a great beer. You should try moderating that pH drop. The flavors in a darker and roastier beer will typically get fuller and rounder. But, all things in moderation. Don't let the mash pH exceed 5.6.
so whats the pH we want now? does RA matter? Does any of the experts in brewing "science" agree on anything related to water chemistry? The OP's water is fine for brewing dark beers. If he brews the same recipe over and over with the same rigorously controlled ferment temps and gets everything else perfect, THEN he can stress out about chasing the subtle improvements (SUBTLE compared to everything else in the brewing process) that perfect water chemistry can add. Maybe by then John Palmer will have finally published his water book that will revolutionize the way people think about brewing water.
Given that there is a 0.2 to 0.3 unit drop in pH for hot wort compared to room-temperature wort, the 5.2 pH is appropriate for hot wort. But since its not a good idea to measure pH at high temperature, the more common approach to measurement is to cool the wort to somewhere around room-temperature. Under that condition, the more ideal mash pH will fall in the 5.3 to 5.5 range.
Also don't forget that pH strips tend to under-report the pH value regardless of the measurement temperature. The pH range mentioned above is for a properly calibrated pH meter.
Also don't forget that pH strips tend to under-report the pH value regardless of the measurement temperature. The pH range mentioned above is for a properly calibrated pH meter.
It should turn out fine. Its just that it may have a bit a sharp edge that you may or may not prefer. The added alkalinity would soften that edge.
We want the pH that gives us the best beer where we have to recognize that 'best' can be defined in several ways. The obvious definition is that it tastes best to you though there are others like tastes best to your S.O.-, wins ribbons, or, in the commercial world, rings the cash register. Thus one cannot define a best pH. I always mention a 3 day conference I went to in Belgium a few years back whose title was 'The pH Paradox' because of this.
5.4 - 5.6 at room temperature gives beers that seem to please most and that's what you should shoot for when starting out but as with any other parameter it should be tweaked in searching for the holy grail.
RA was invented to allow brewers making mostly base malt beers to compare water supplies. It became one of those things that brewers grabbed at in desperation in the hopes of finding things that would simplify this intricate subject. RA can be useful for the purpose for which it was intended but when I see people computing the RA of a mash my eyes roll.
No more than other scientists agree on everything.
Water chemistry and in particular its effects on mash pH can make a dramatic difference in the quality of the finished beer. Not perhaps as dramatic as the difference between infected and uninfected beer but still quite dramatic. The difference between beer that the drinker thinks is OK and beer which makes him say "Ahh, that's good beer".
I wouldn't count on a revolution. The material may be presented in a clearer, more concise form but there are no new revelations in there. This isn't rocket science. It's just intricate and involves concepts that aren't familiar to most people.
And what is a "dark beer" anyways? There is a huge difference between the typical dry irish stout coloured with unmalted roasted barley and a dark mild getting most of its color from dark crystal malts.
Your water (provided it is free of chloromine) is fine for brewing pretty much any style of beer. It may not optimal but definitely not a deal breaker - water that is too hard is a much worse problem than too soft. You're more likely to ruin the beer trying to "fix" the alkalinity by adding lime without a precision scale and a pH meter.
If you want to nerd out on water chemistry, buy a pH meter and go nuts. Download spreadsheets, pick an expert you agree with (they all have a different take on the subject), take pH measurements when you brew and dial it in perfectly. In the meantime just brew and see what happens - it won't be horrid because of the water. If you are worried, ask your LHBS or local brewers - I guarantee there is a local brew pub using that water unadjusted for all their beers.
Your water (provided it is free of chloromine) is fine for brewing pretty much any style of beer. It may not optimal but definitely not a deal breaker - water that is too hard is a much worse problem than too soft. You're more likely to ruin the beer trying to "fix" the alkalinity by adding lime without a precision scale and a pH meter.
If you want to nerd out on water chemistry, buy a pH meter and go nuts. Download spreadsheets, pick an expert you agree with (they all have a different take on the subject), take pH measurements when you brew and dial it in perfectly. In the meantime just brew and see what happens - it won't be horrid because of the water. If you are worried, ask your LHBS or local brewers - I guarantee there is a local brew pub using that water unadjusted for all their beers.
Do you think the OP's water is so bad to notice a dramatic difference in the quality of the finished beer? Is it even worth worrying about for a new all grain brewer?
...and I was sort being sarcastic about the water book - It keeps getting delayed and when it does come out it will no doubt add to the confusion by promoting RA
I think he's fortunate to have it but I also think that he would probably get the OK to Ah transition by adding enough acid to get his mash pH's into a good working range. For dark beers he might or might not need it. For pale beers he definitely would.
I would definitely advise the use of a pH meter so that he can correlate what he tastes with where pH falls. It can make a big difference. That does sort of assume that he is to the point where he is doing everything else more or less correctly. Setting pH right won't fix a beer that is mashed at the wrong temperature. That's why I did the Primer so that people could very probably hit proper mash pH without worrying about spreadsheets, calculators or pH meters while they are learning the basic skills of making beer. When they have those down they can move on to the nuances.
I would definitely advise the use of a pH meter so that he can correlate what he tastes with where pH falls. It can make a big difference. That does sort of assume that he is to the point where he is doing everything else more or less correctly. Setting pH right won't fix a beer that is mashed at the wrong temperature. That's why I did the Primer so that people could very probably hit proper mash pH without worrying about spreadsheets, calculators or pH meters while they are learning the basic skills of making beer. When they have those down they can move on to the nuances.
See, THIS is why the subject of brewing water is so complicated. 3 of the 4 top homebrewing water chemistry experts have commented on this thread:
AJ says the water primer is a good starting point, and the original poster's water would likely need an acid addition but maybe not for dark beers.
Martin says the water primer doesn't work for dark beers and the OP should add alkalinity to brew dark beers....and of course wants you to download his spreadsheet.
Kai is rather cryptic. Is he saying just brew?
Palmer is absent but would probably have you calculate your RA and replicate dublin's water profile or some other classic dark beer brewing city.
AJ says the water primer is a good starting point, and the original poster's water would likely need an acid addition but maybe not for dark beers.
Martin says the water primer doesn't work for dark beers and the OP should add alkalinity to brew dark beers....and of course wants you to download his spreadsheet.
Kai is rather cryptic. Is he saying just brew?
Palmer is absent but would probably have you calculate your RA and replicate dublin's water profile or some other classic dark beer brewing city.
chumpsteak
Well-Known Member
The subject of brewing water is so complicated because it is so complicated. The "water chemistry experts" are not complicating matters, they are simply trying offer advice and guidence and share their vast amounts of knowledge and experience with you and other that seek it. Your sarcasm implies that you think they are overcomplicating matters and confusing new brewers. I believe they are providing a huge service and volunteering their time to try and explain to us non "water chemistry experts" what their opinions and experiences related to brewing water are.
This forum and subject can be extremely intimidating and flies well over the head of most homebrewers, but.....that doesn't mean that as simple homebrewers we shouldn't aspire to understand every aspect of our hobby and try to gain as much knowledge as possible in order to make the best beer possible. To some the best beer possible may be adding extract to water and tossing in a few hops. To others the best beer possible means that we want to explore every little aspect of the process to the point of obsession in order to try and achieve unattainable perfection.
I can fully understand how you think a few ppm of one mineral or a couple tenths of pH don't make a difference in a homebrewers beer. However, I would argue that small differences DO make all the difference in the world to our beers once we get to the point where all other aspects (fermentation temps, pitching rate, sanitation) are all dialed in. I also agree that the beginning or even average homebrewer shouldn't even be looking at their water (aside from chlorine/chloramine) removal, but....if they are advanced enough to get into all grain brewing then they should be advanced enough to try and understand their water, mash pH, and mineral content and the differences it can make in their final product.
As someone who spends wayyyy to much time reading about brewing and obsessing over this hobby I fully appreciate the experts that volunteer their time and make the effort to answer any and all questions that hit this forum. Even if their opinions sometimes disagree I appreciate all of their input and believe that the varying opinions only show how complicated the subject brewing water is and how its subtleties present differently to different tastes in the final beers.
If you do any reading on this forum at all you will see that all of the water experts that frequent it will tell you that personal taste is important and that your experiences may vary. That's why a pH meter is important very everyone and not just water nerds. It's about being able to achieve the results that fit your pallet and then being able to duplicate it time after time. If you're only interested in making a batch of extract beer a few times a year then the brew science forum isn't for you, but if you want to make incredible beer and be able to reproduce it then every minute detail counts and every variable becomes important.
Anyway, thanks to all you "water chemistry experts" and the service and opinions you provide. I wouldn't know Sh*t about water without you and my beers would still suck by MY standards.
This forum and subject can be extremely intimidating and flies well over the head of most homebrewers, but.....that doesn't mean that as simple homebrewers we shouldn't aspire to understand every aspect of our hobby and try to gain as much knowledge as possible in order to make the best beer possible. To some the best beer possible may be adding extract to water and tossing in a few hops. To others the best beer possible means that we want to explore every little aspect of the process to the point of obsession in order to try and achieve unattainable perfection.
I can fully understand how you think a few ppm of one mineral or a couple tenths of pH don't make a difference in a homebrewers beer. However, I would argue that small differences DO make all the difference in the world to our beers once we get to the point where all other aspects (fermentation temps, pitching rate, sanitation) are all dialed in. I also agree that the beginning or even average homebrewer shouldn't even be looking at their water (aside from chlorine/chloramine) removal, but....if they are advanced enough to get into all grain brewing then they should be advanced enough to try and understand their water, mash pH, and mineral content and the differences it can make in their final product.
As someone who spends wayyyy to much time reading about brewing and obsessing over this hobby I fully appreciate the experts that volunteer their time and make the effort to answer any and all questions that hit this forum. Even if their opinions sometimes disagree I appreciate all of their input and believe that the varying opinions only show how complicated the subject brewing water is and how its subtleties present differently to different tastes in the final beers.
If you do any reading on this forum at all you will see that all of the water experts that frequent it will tell you that personal taste is important and that your experiences may vary. That's why a pH meter is important very everyone and not just water nerds. It's about being able to achieve the results that fit your pallet and then being able to duplicate it time after time. If you're only interested in making a batch of extract beer a few times a year then the brew science forum isn't for you, but if you want to make incredible beer and be able to reproduce it then every minute detail counts and every variable becomes important.
Anyway, thanks to all you "water chemistry experts" and the service and opinions you provide. I wouldn't know Sh*t about water without you and my beers would still suck by MY standards.
Yes, I reread what I wrote and it does sound kinda dickish...sorry about that
I do appreciate AJ and Martin for donating so much effort responding to questions and both have tried to make their knowledge as accessible as possible to new brewers. ...but I do think John Palmer has complicated the entire subject by continuing to promote concepts like RA, classic brewing city water profiles, 5.2 stabilizer, etc Its not that I don't think it will make a difference, I just don't think its attainable on 5 gal homebrew batch. My water is drawn from 3 sources, all are really soft but there is differences and I have no idea what is actually coming out of the tap on any given day. Add to that the ridiculous level of precision it takes to adjust 5 gallons of water a couple tenths of pH or a few ppm. If I was a pro, brewing large batches of the same recipes over and over again, I would definitely pursue the perfect water profile for each recipe. For now, I usually just consult the water primer and RDWHAHB
Yes and I think this is something that is forgotten a lot of the time. Just brew with your water and see what it is like before you start messing with it - especially if you have decent water like the OP. Even if it is clearly horrible water brew with it and you'll at least have a baseline to compare any changes to. They are 5 gallon batches, if it doesn't turn out perfect it isn't the end of the world if you have to dump it. But often you don't have to do all that work yourself, go to your local brew pub or homebrew shop and ask what they do and try their beers.
I too would like to thank AJ, Martin and Kai and apologize for any offense my sarcasm my have caused. If it wasn't for them I would still be using nomographs from How to Brew and trying to replicate London's water profile.
Hermit
fuddle
I was just in the beginning of 'really' trying to understand brewing water when AJ started posting. The primer made things easier but.....Add to that the ridiculous level of precision it takes to adjust 5 gallons of water a couple tenths of pH or a few ppm.
For now, I usually just consult the water primer and RDWHAHB
My pH meter should arrive on Monday. Simply the path I decided to go. I simply wish to eliminate a variable from the equation. If you have more unknowns than equations you can't solve the set and we will always have one unknown. Personal taste preference.
I wish you had completed that thought. As you didn't I'll offer my own completion.
... but if you just adhere to the Primer's recommendations you will never master management of the material that composes 90% or more of your beer.
The Primer was written at Yooper's request. 'Can't you make it simple?' she asked. I had concluded that the answer was 'no' based on 20 years of trying to do so during which I had gone through all the thinking that the younger guys are now going through. I have tried to hang it all on RA, I have tried to hide it in complex spreadsheets, I have tried to preformulate the waters of brewing centres of renown. I have stood in front of the classrooms filled with people who I know are aksing themselves 'what is he talking about?'. But at Yooper's request I sat down and was quite surprised to find out that I was able to come up with what I did imperfect as it may be. And the frosting on the cake was I realized that this is how I brew now. But I have over 20 years of understanding (with plenty of misunderstandings along the way) behind what I am doing which a user of the Primer will never get unless he catches fire and goes on to study this stuff in detail.
chumpsteak
Well-Known Member
Just to get back on topic here, I can tell the OP from personal experience that I prefer my dark beers, oatmeal stout specifically, with a much higher level of alkalinity and therefore higher mash pH than he is likely to get with his straight tap water. I've made my oatmeal stout with 100 alkalinity tap water, straight RO water, and tap water with lime additions to raise alkalinity over 200. The last batch I made with the higher alkalinity water is smoother, more flavorful, and has more body than the earlier batches I made. The RO water batch which is probably comparable to the OPs water came in at a very low 5.2 mash pH and was a little sharp tasting with the roast and hop bitterness kind of overpowering the beer. The last batch I made with the lime additions came in at a mash pH of 5.4 and I will add lime to this beer from now on because this is what I prefer.
To the OP, you can still make a great stout or dark beer with your tap water, it may just be a little low on the pH side depending on your roasted grain content. If you want to get serious about water and making your beer fit your tastes exactly then you really need to get a pH meter and brewing salts, lime, and acids and start messing around with the spreadsheets.
Also, along the same lines as what gbx and AJ have mentioned here, water can only make the difference if the rest of your process is already dialed in and consistent. You will not see the gains from tight water control unless you already have super clean fermentations due to controlled temps and pitching rates. If you currently strugle with any off flavors or imperfections in your beers then I don't think you will be able to detect water the subtleties of water adjustment have to offer. Like AJ said, it is about going from good beer to that "Ah" moment.
One thing I would suggest is the use of campden to treat chlorine and chloramines. It made a huge difference in my beers.
To the OP, you can still make a great stout or dark beer with your tap water, it may just be a little low on the pH side depending on your roasted grain content. If you want to get serious about water and making your beer fit your tastes exactly then you really need to get a pH meter and brewing salts, lime, and acids and start messing around with the spreadsheets.
Also, along the same lines as what gbx and AJ have mentioned here, water can only make the difference if the rest of your process is already dialed in and consistent. You will not see the gains from tight water control unless you already have super clean fermentations due to controlled temps and pitching rates. If you currently strugle with any off flavors or imperfections in your beers then I don't think you will be able to detect water the subtleties of water adjustment have to offer. Like AJ said, it is about going from good beer to that "Ah" moment.
One thing I would suggest is the use of campden to treat chlorine and chloramines. It made a huge difference in my beers.
Wow, 200 ppm alkalinity? That is higher than I would expect to need. But if it works for you, go with it. I also find that there are some benefits to keeping that mash pH from dropping too low with those acidic grists.
Yes, a brewer can make a decent beer without adding alkalinity even though the mash pH drops too much. But I contend that better beer can be made when the mash pH is reined in and kept within the sweet spot of brewing, 5.3 to 5.5. A tenth or two high or low might be useful in some cases, but staying in the sweet spot is good practice.
Yes, a brewer can make a decent beer without adding alkalinity even though the mash pH drops too much. But I contend that better beer can be made when the mash pH is reined in and kept within the sweet spot of brewing, 5.3 to 5.5. A tenth or two high or low might be useful in some cases, but staying in the sweet spot is good practice.
Hermit
fuddle
Was the lime strictly to raise the pH to 5.4 meaning the 200+ alkalinity was just a side affect? 5.2 at room temperature? That would have been too low anyhow, no?
chumpsteak
Well-Known Member
The water profile in your spreadsheet for balanced black beer gives a recommended alkalinity of almost 200ppm, so I guess I'm confused. My tap water is fed by multiple wells, but I measure it with pool testing strips just before I brew in order to get a ballpark alkalinity number. I've been getting around 100 alkalinity as best I can tell from the strips, so that's what I plugged into your spreadsheet. I put about 1gram of pickling lime into the mash which according to the spreadsheet should have given me close to 200ppm of alkalinity and a mash pH of only 5.1, but in order to get a mash pH of 5.3 in your spreadsheet I was going to have to add 6grams of pickling lime and figuring that was way too much so I started with the 1gram. I pulled a mash sample at 15 minutes and let it go to room temp and then measured a pH of 5.4 at room temp.
So, the 200 alkalinity number was just a guess based on estimated starting alkalinity and lime additions. It was probably closer to 150 now that I look at the spreadsheet again.
chumpsteak
Well-Known Member
Yes, the lime addition was to get the mash pH up. As I said in the above post the alkalinity was a side affect of that. I always let my mash samples get to room temperature or close to it before I measure them, so the 5.4 was at room temp. That was the measured room temp pH at 15 minutes and at the end of mash as well.
