"Pro" brewers who make beers with obvious flaws

I had one last night and it pisses me off. An American IPA that was very obviously fermented at too high a temp, I cant imagine what it tastes like when they ferment in the summer.


Anyways, these brewers:

1. Cant taste the flaw

2. Don't know enough to fix it

3. Don't care as long as people are buying their beer



Honestly, I don't know which option is the worst.

/rant

Hmm. And I thought I would open this thread to find another Charlestonian complaining about a local brewery.

I won't name the brewery because I like the guys involved, but all of their pale or non-dark-malt based ales are astringent. pH problem.

I just had some bad beer at a popular brewpub in a vacation area.

The beers were undercarbed, a bit phenolic (in an amber and a pale ale), and simply not very good.

I think that the reasons are a combination of factors- it's more of a restaurant who happens to want to brew so they brew as well. They don't have a microbiologist on staff, so the yeast health is questionable. People buy it and drink it- so they don't know that it's not very good.

I probably get more fair-to-middlin beers at brewpubs than good ones overall. Occasionally, you find a place with good beer but even then some styles are worse than others.

PistolsAtDawn said:

Hmm. And I thought I would open this thread to find another Charlestonian complaining about a local brewery.

I won't name the brewery because I like the guys involved, but all of their pale or non-dark-malt based ales are astringent. pH problem.

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LOL...there are only a few options. Its not Coast or Westbrook, although they do have a weird pissing match going on(while I'm on it).

Does it rhyme with poley dity?

Xpertskir said:

3. Don't care as long as people are buying their beer
/rant

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My guess is this is the primary driver. It seems that as brewery get larger, the commercial aspect dominates - as I suppose it has to. Although there are still some that continue to pursue excellence in their beers even as they grow. I think that here in the NE, Alagash is a great example. They've grown a lot, but they are still picky about what they release. It's refreshing - in more than one way, actually!

Then again.... when I lived in California I would occasionaly go to a Rock Bottem in Sunnyvale (I think) and all of their brews were so hoppy I had to cut them with a lemon or a sprite to drink them.

There was a place in Oakland also that to me all their bees tasted "burned" (to hoppy in a dark sort of way)

I have been to over 300 brewies and a few of them I did not care for the beer.

Even here in Washington DC the Capital City Brewery for a long while only had one beer I could drink... they are now better (at least for me).

SO I figure;;;;; maybe they like it that way...

Time to visit another brewery or ask them to brew a different style.

Sometimes the brewers hands are tied by an owners recipe from years ago that the owner doesn't want modified in any way despite the brewer explaining proper technique and the reasons behind it.


Not that I know anything about that

We've all had underwhelming beer. But one thing I can add re: selling beer you know is "bad", is that once it's brewed, they have to pay all the taxes on it. Dumping beer costs big money, not just from the ingredients, but also federal and state taxes.

In addition to the many good points made so far, pro brewers can easily suffer from cellar fatigue, where they're so used to sampling the same 5-8 house brews over an over again that their palates stop being objective.

LeBreton said:

In addition to the many good points made so far, pro brewers can easily suffer from cellar fatigue, where they're so used to sampling the same 5-8 house brews over an over again that their palates stop being objective.

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So true and tough not to fall into as well.

KeystoneHomebrew said:

Dumping beer costs big money, not just from the ingredients, but also federal and state taxes.

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Now this is interesting, and something I did not consider. Leave it to the gummit to tax you on the creation and not the sale.

Xpertskir said:

Now this is interesting, and something I did not consider. Leave it to the gummit to tax you on the creation and not the sale.

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prior to 1978, this was the barrier to homebrewing; there was no tax exemption for brewing at home

One thing I suspect is happening around here with a lot of the small breweries that are opening up is that there is a huge demand for trendy craft beer from a public without very discerning palates. They can barely keep up with demand so there's no push to polish recipes or techniques (probably no time either).

Yooper said:

I
People buy it and drink it- so they don't know that it's not very good.

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Is it still "bad" if they don't notice? I mean, are you claiming that it is objectionably bad? I just worry about us "beer snobs" becoming too emphasized on the "snob" part of the expression (no offense intended, just trying to stimulate a little discussion).

RainyDays said:

Is it still "bad" if they don't notice? I mean, are you claiming that it is objectionably bad? I just worry about us "beer snobs" becoming too emphasized on the "snob" part of the expression (no offense intended, just trying to stimulate a little discussion).

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Well the beer I'm specifically talking about(although there have been many shining examples, that I have unfortunately consumed) had enough fruity esters from a hot fermentation to be tasted through a relatively aggressively hopped beer. That IMO is pretty unforgivable.

I look at it more from a creation standpoint. As in when I create something the amount of scrutiny that I have for whatever I am creating and the pride that you feel when finally doing it really well is just priceless. I just have a hard time understanding people that don't share that same pride or maybe more importantly embarrassment in not doing it well.

Yooper said:

I just had some bad beer at a popular brewpub in a vacation area.

The beers were undercarbed, a bit phenolic (in an amber and a pale ale), and simply not very good.

I think that the reasons are a combination of factors- it's more of a restaurant who happens to want to brew so they brew as well. They don't have a microbiologist on staff, so the yeast health is questionable. People buy it and drink it- so they don't know that it's not very good.

I probably get more fair-to-middlin beers at brewpubs than good ones overall. Occasionally, you find a place with good beer but even then some styles are worse than others.

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If it is in Port A on the Texas coast I know the place you are talking about. Went down there on vacation and couldn't find a single beer they made that I liked. The hefe had no carbonation what so ever. That is the first time I said I could brew a better beer than a brew pub. The food wasn't that good either.

This drives me nuts too (although I haven't tried Charleston's new breweries after being there from 07-10). Most of the breweries here in Montana are fantastic...but there are certainly a few that 1) either brew the most boring, meh-tasting beers ever, 2) use the same yeast strain for absolutely everything with the end result of beers that are SUPPOSED to taste different tasting the same, or 3) just making bad beer either through rushing fermentation, having flat-out bad recipes, or some other reason.

-Lucky for us we know how to do it right- at home!

LeBreton said:

In addition to the many good points made so far, pro brewers can easily suffer from cellar fatigue, where they're so used to sampling the same 5-8 house brews over an over again that their palates stop being objective.

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This. Thats why lots of places have some sort of outside tasting panel to run everything through before it is served, but I would imagine most small shops just aren't worried enough to take the time if its selling.

Xpertskir said:

I had one last night and it pisses me off. An American IPA that was very obviously fermented at too high a temp, I cant imagine what it tastes like when they ferment in the summer.


Anyways, these brewers:

1. Cant taste the flaw

2. Don't know enough to fix it

3. Don't care as long as people are buying their beer



Honestly, I don't know which option is the worst.

/rant

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While 1 probably caused 3.... you've left of

4. People are used to the bad flavor and PREFER it to what that style should be.

Take a look at when aspertain(nutra sweet) hit the market. Soda makers were able to finally get the saccrine flavor out of their products.. which they did for their diet sodas for about 6 to 12 months before the off saccrine flavor came back. During that 6 month to 12 window the diets were almost the same as non diet soda. BUT the diet soda buyers wouldn't beleive it wasn't diet because the flavor wasn't cra... Errr. didn't taste right.

Once #4 sets in, no way will they risk improving the flavor and losing customers

Hmmm. We just floated a 5 gallon keg of clone brew (no, it's not in my sig). I went out and bought a bomber to compare. This is a brew that's sold coast-to-coast and brewed in CO, AFAIK.

Mine was smooth, sultry, with a nicely substantial malt profile. Wonderfully biscuit-y. I did accidentally oxidize it a little bit, but it was still very drinkable.

I popped open the bomber and got a nice pour. When I went to take the first drink, I was smacked hard in the face with what seemed like a pound of Victory malt. The scent overwhelmed most of the enjoyment that I got out of the bomber. I looked at my clone recipe, yep, Victory Malt right there, but only like 6% of the grist.

Either my tastes have changed substantially since I brewed it, or that batch was different. Very disappointed.

There was a brewery in town that closed not too long ago. They had so-so recipes but a huge infection issue that never went away - I guess they were forced to choose between selling known 'bad' beer or dumping it and spending tons of $ on taxes for unsold beer and disinfecting/replacing equipment. In the end, didn't seem to matter.

ACbrewer said:

4. People are used to the bad flavor and PREFER it to what that style should be.

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Sort of like Redhook, I think they've toned it down a lot, but, for years, diacetyl was just part of the unique flavor that was Redhook.

I was at a charity film festival last night that had Sierra Nevada pouring out of a jockey box. It was awful!! So not just the small brewers!! This beer was old and musty...no hop flavor or aroma at all. I think we as brewers are just way more sensitive to obvious faults than the general public....most don't care or can't taste the obvious flaws.

RainyDays said:

Is it still "bad" if they don't notice? I mean, are you claiming that it is objectionably bad? I just worry about us "beer snobs" becoming too emphasized on the "snob" part of the expression (no offense intended, just trying to stimulate a little discussion).

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Good question. I think a good analogy would be the OS and/or software that has dominated the market worked like crap because it was forced into the market too soon with flaws. Customers were deluded into accepting the standard of a flawed product as standard (but of course you have your endless "updates" and patches). A majority of customers were clueless that there was something defective in the product and that there was a much better, albeit more pricey, alternative.

I have only really had "pro" beer that was bad one time - that was at the Solvang Brewing Co. in Solvang, CA. I went in with a lady friend of mine and asked for a few samples from their taps - the girl ordered a stout - after our first sips we glanced at each other with horrified expressions. We both sampled the rest of the tasters that had been poured just to be sure there wasn't anything salvageable, paid for the (unfinished) pint and politely left. Reviews of their beers can be found on the net and make for some entertaining reading.

You also have to discern what would actually be considered "Pro" now?
Everyone and their uncle are opening a brewery and while I know some have had professional training, many are just homebrewers with a wallet or funding and it is affecting the overall quality curve of the craft industry.

I'm also having a hard time justifying the prices of some of these smaller breweries rather average products.

I travel a lot and I always seek out the local breweries/brew pubs.

I can same empirically, that two out of three breweries disappoint. Of the remaining one out of three, the beers are ok 75% of the time, good 20% of the time and exceptional 5% of the time.

Law of averages folks (I fought the law and the law won).

mjdonnelly68 said:

Law of averages folks.

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Yes, but that's the same law Mick Shrimpton applied to his ill fated drumming gig.

cinderbike said:

There was a brewery in town that closed not too long ago. They had so-so recipes but a huge infection issue that never went away - I guess they were forced to choose between selling known 'bad' beer or dumping it and spending tons of $ on taxes for unsold beer and disinfecting/replacing equipment. In the end, didn't seem to matter.

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From what I saw at the Yeungling brewery, and I know about the taxes, they get taxed on the cooled wort, not the finished beer. After the wort is made, it is pumped up to the fermenting house through a meter which records how much goes by. The tax is levied on every barrel that goes past the meter.

So if htye have to dump a batch because of flaws, they lose that tax, and the labor of the wort and all the rest.

ACbrewer said:

From what I saw at the Yeungling brewery, and I know about the taxes, they get taxed on the cooled wort, not the finished beer. After the wort is made, it is pumped up to the fermenting house through a meter which records how much goes by. The tax is levied on every barrel that goes past the meter.

So if htye have to dump a batch because of flaws, they lose that tax, and the labor of the wort and all the rest.

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that might be PA's liquor laws. they have some strange ones.

probably not the same in other states

Well,just take a look at how many products today just plain suck. Find the good stuff and support those businesses, especially your local ones.

Rant narrowly avoided by cracking a test batch of cream ale.

KeystoneHomebrew said:

We've all had underwhelming beer. But one thing I can add re: selling beer you know is "bad", is that once it's brewed, they have to pay all the taxes on it. Dumping beer costs big money, not just from the ingredients, but also federal and state taxes.

Click to expand...

cinderbike said:

There was a brewery in town that closed not too long ago. They had so-so recipes but a huge infection issue that never went away - I guess they were forced to choose between selling known 'bad' beer or dumping it and spending tons of $ on taxes for unsold beer and disinfecting/replacing equipment. In the end, didn't seem to matter.

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Yeah, this may have been some state or local thing, which sucks. But it isn't the way the feds do it. From the Code of Federal Regulations

25.151 Rate of tax.
All beer, brewed or produced, and removed for consumption or sale, is subject to the tax prescribed by 26 U.S.C. 5051, for every barrel containing not more than 31 gallons, and at a like rate for any other quantity or for the fractional parts of a barrel as authorized in § 25.156.

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I had a really cloudy bottle of mead I payed some pretty big bucks for. I wont name names, but I wont buy another bottle of it again. Especially since the first mead I ever made tasted better than it (and it wasn't just my own bias comparing my work to commercial work).

There is a place near me that has some issues.

I had an English IPA that was completely undrinkable. I couldn't believe they would even sell this stuff. At first I thought it was just due to the difference between an English and American IPA, but I made it a point to try some other English IPAs and they were nothing like this.

They do have some good beers. Their Amber Ale and Oatmeal Stout are great. Unfortunately, all their other beers taste very similar to the Amber Ale. I think maybe it's the yeast, but when you're drinking a Blonde Ale, you expect it to taste like a Blonde Ale. It's a little off-putting.

A certain 'must-visit' brewery near me only has one beer that I'll gladly drink, and it's an IIPA. The rest are essentially the same beer with different color. It sells well to the masses and keeps them in business. With that being the goal, I guess they're successful. I just don't care for their product.
b-boy and I seem to be talking about the same place, in fact. Kyle

Conan said:

A certain 'must-visit' brewery near me only has one beer that I'll gladly drink, and it's an IIPA. The rest are essentially the same beer with different color. It sells well to the masses and keeps them in business. With that being the goal, I guess they're successful. I just don't care for their product.
b-boy and I seem to be talking about the same place, in fact. Kyle

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I'm pretty sure it's the same place. It's nice to know I'm not the only one with that opinion.

I do enjoy a few of their beers, but I've learned to stick to those and not deviate too much.

Xpertskir said:

I had one last night and it pisses me off. An American IPA that was very obviously fermented at too high a temp, I cant imagine what it tastes like when they ferment in the summer.


Anyways, these brewers:

1. Cant taste the flaw

2. Don't know enough to fix it

3. Don't care as long as people are buying their beer



Honestly, I don't know which option is the worst.

/rant

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I've run into this quite a bit recently with all the new breweries popping up everywhere. I think it's mainly the first one, they either can't taste it due to lack of experience or they're not that sensitive to the flavor. When you're a new brewery nobody gives you real honest feedback so they likely don't even know it's a problem. Couple that with the fact that most of their customers don't know a good beer from a bad, and will even be impressed by the 'awesome butterscotch flavor', I think it's mainly a lack of having a proper feedback mechanism to critically evaluate the beer.

GrogNerd said:

that might be PA's liquor laws. they have some strange ones.

probably not the same in other states

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Nope talked with a vinter (winery) in VA. He said he is taxed for what goes into the fermentor, and that is by the Feds, not the state (well the state might also, but he said it was the Feds who taxed him on all of what goes into the fermentor)

ACbrewer said:

Nope talked with a vinter (winery) in VA. He said he is taxed for what goes into the fermentor, and that is by the Feds, not the state (well the state might also, but he said it was the Feds who taxed him on all of what goes into the fermentor)

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figured Cæser would want his rendering before the point where you would decide to dump a batch

So you just write off the entire loss, tax and all.. ?