CDA / Black IPA recipe feedback?

I'd love to get some feedback on this CDA / Black IPA recipe. This is more or less my first "from-scratch" recipe, so please go easy on me . I sort of patched together some of the common ingredients from other recipes out there and tried to stay roughly within the IPA guidelines with the exception of a balanced dark, roastiness. I don't want a super hoppy IPA, either, so I kept the range roughly in the middle of the guidelines. I'm not sure if I should bump up the IBUs because it has a bit more roast in in. Here goes nothing

Vol: 5.5 gal
IBU: 57
Color: 31 SRM
Expected OG: 1.067
ABV: 6.8
Mash: 152F, 60 Min
Boil: 60min

US 2-Row Malt 12.00 lb
US Caramel 60L Malt 0.75 lb
German Carafa Special III 0.75 lb

US Chinook 10.5 % 1.75 oz 60 Min From End
US Amarillo 7.5 % 1.00 oz At turn off
US Simcoe 12.2 % 1.00 oz At turn off
US Simcoe 12.5 % 1.00 oz Dry-Hopped
US Amarillo 7.5 % 1.00 oz Dry-Hopped


Your input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Looks good; I like the simplicity. You might want to tone the carafa down slightly (or add it late in the mash), as it will still bring a bit of roast that can get overwhelming. Still, you'll probably be OK with the amount you've listed.

I wasn't too sure about how much carafa III to use. A couple other threads had similar debates about how much/when to add it. I think the consensus was the the carafa III special added some roast, a good amount of color, but wouldn't bitter the wort as much as the other varieties, even when used for the full duration of the mash. I really liked the 21st Amendment Back in Black, and I have a Deschutes Hop in the Dark waiting in the fridge, but I've seen that clone sheet... pretty complex. http://www.deschutesbrewery.com/recipe/hop-dark-clone First things first - get a decent easy, then add complexity.

Subscribed. I'm very interested to see your results.

Please update this thread after you try this.

I'm talking with a friend about working together on the final version.... or at least a starting point for some variations like taking 10 gal wort and splitting it to 2 different 5gal batches with different hops... or same hops and different yeast strains.

What if I bring the carafa down to about 1/2 lb? Would that be enough? I've never brewed with it.

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Well, it sounds like you want at least a little roast from it, do that would probably be a good balance. My last iba used a full pound and it came out almost stout-like (although still delicious, mind you).

You could also go 8oz full mash and add the other 4oz with ten minutes left, just to be sure you get the color you want. I may actually go that route for my next batch, just out of curiosity.

That's an interesting idea. The first version of the recipe had a full lb of the Carafa III special plus 1# of the 60L, and that brought it to over 37 SRM, which isn't necessarily bad, but it seemed to be higher than most commercial varieties. I figured it would also have more roast than them as a result.

How does the hop schedule look?

I would do half a pound on the crystal and the carafa then maybe add like 3oz of chocolate for a darker color?

Cam-

One of the other things I found is that a lot of black ipa's seem to use Melanoidin malt. The best I can figure is the bump in malty flavors might give the kind of body a beer that dark needs to stand up. But, we're likely going to get that from the Carafa III and 60L anyway.

As for Hop schedule...I like. If I were to change anything...my imagination is on maybe trying Simcoe for bittering and instead of Simcoe and Amarillo at flame out, try Palisade and Amarillo 5 minutes before flame out to help get those oils released into the wort. Then stick with Simcoe and Amarillo for dry hopping.

I do agree with smagee...simplicity is good. You've seen my recipes...I can get too wild and then when flavors don't work out how I wanted I have a heck of a time unwinding the problem.

Mine uses over a pound of carafa iii. I don't ever find it too "roasty." But it's loaded with hops. The first month, it's all about the hops with a very slight toast character underneath it all. After a month, as the hops fade a tad, the roast comes out and completely changes the beer. I love this change. It's like having two beers in one keg!

jgourd is spot-on with his assessment; that's precisely what my last batch did too.

I wouldn't worry about body--between mashing that high and the crystal/carafa, you'll have plenty of mouthfeel as well as head retention. I've added other bits periodically for fun (also because I'd have like 2oz of oats that I wanted to use up), but the core of the recipe has plenty of power to it.

As far as hops go, I'd stick with Chinook for bittering. It makes for an awesome pairing, bringing it's slightly harsh spiciness to match against the roast of the carafa. Stone's Self-Righteous uses Chinook and is absolutely wonderful. I love Simcoe, but prefer it as a later addition, as its flavor is simply too awesome to miss out on by using it early.

I like your schedule overall, so long as you realize it will be a volatile brew--with all those late additions, the hops won't stick around for longer than a month or two, tops. Then you'll have a (still tasty) slightly-hoppier version of a stout. If you want to avoid this, you might consider an extra ounce or two somewhere around 15-10 minutes left--Simcoe would be a good candidate, as well as Chinook. My most recent batch had an ounce around 10 and 5, 2oz at flameout, then doubled down on the dry hops with 2oz in secondary, 2oz keg hops. Since you didn't want it *too* hoppy, your version seems to suit your tastes well.

Edit: Also, my batch was somewhere around 1.096OG, so your hop schedule is much more reasonable for a significantly smaller beer .

If you keep the carafa to at least 1#, you should have a nice brew. Your IBUs are good to me (mine comes at about 70). I also dry hop more aggressively since I want this to really come out as a CDA/IBA/BIPA (something on the order of 4 oz total). This is why, in my view, the roast is muted (but still there) initially and comes out once the hops fade a bit after a month or so. If you're wondering, my grain bill for a 6 gal batch and a brewhouse efficiency of 70%:


Yup, that's almost 2# of Carafa III (same as debittered black) and a nice amount of crystal for nice body. I don't find this beer too sweet at all (virtually no residual sweetness at all). This reminds me of some research a few of us have been doing recently regarding crystal malts in high quantities (>10%) and mashing temps. We find our homebrews not to have that maltiness like good microbrews do. But we have always kept the crystals to a total of 10% or less of the grist as almost everyone recommends. So we are trying some brews and increasing this to sometimes 25%. And now we are getting more of that nice flavor that complements the hops in styles like this and IPAs and APAs. I digress...

Oh and when I first made this, I did just like you! I had about 0.75# of Carafa III. I didn't want it too roasty! And now I find myself consistently increasing this (to what it is now) every time I brew this one again. This is my fourth iteration.

I was trying to do more research into the style....I think we ought to head to the store and try to buy some off the following list:

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/style/175

The good news is Stone's got a new one for their 15 year anniversary (last month). Also, good to hear about the Chinook and now I stand corrected on switching Chinook and Simcoe.

It seems like the real question is how much roast and malty-ness is acceptable in a Black IPA. Again...I figure the best way to determine that is by drinking a lot. So...let's get to the store!

The levels of roast present in commercial varieties will vary quite a bit; Stone's is more hop-forward with only a mild roast background, whereas 21st amendment's Back in Black is much maltier, with more subdued hops and a medium roast character. Some of the CDAs up north (as opposed to the southern region's "BIPA/IBA") are almost stoutlike in their bitterness, but with ample hops to support it.

Long story short, the classification is still being refined, and is largely subjective at this point. But you should absolutely do some "research" to find out what you want .

Presently enjoying some "research"

Mmmm.

I did some research the other night in honor of the massive blackout here oin Dan Diego... Deschutes Hop in the Dark. It was s good beer, but not what I was expecting out of a CDA. You can tell the difference between mashed with the roasted grains vs just steeping or doing a short mash period with them.

tcgraham, we should do some in-depth research. Hamilton's usually has one or two on tap. I should also check the bottle shop down the street.

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Smagee, that's what I noticed. I'll have to get my brother on law to bring some 21st down from the bay area next time I see him. Is love to have that clone recipe as a starting point, as it's close to what I would want.

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I think even if you mash the darker malts (the entire mash duration), so long as you have significant flavor and aroma hop additions, you will initially mask a lot of the roast. That's my experience at least. Of course, to be clear, we're talking about dehusked (debittered) black malt (carafa special).

Wow, life took over for a bit and I forgot about this recipe as I'm working on some other homebrew projects.

I went through this thread again with a fresh mind and took many of the comments into consideration. I think I'm pretty close to finalizing. I'll put this caveat on the recipe: I took the typical ranges for an IPA and darkened it up. From what I recall when doing my research, several other recipes had about 2oz dry hop, which is how I landed on that number. Whether or not it's a good balance for this beer, I'm not entirely sure.

mistercameron said:

I'd love to get some feedback on this CDA / Black IPA recipe.

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A couple of us (okay 2) have a similar recipe in our fermenters (below). I posted a few pics of mine. It looks great and tastes, err, promising.

Here's the link to our thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/looking-southern-tier-iniquity-clone-238776/index2.html#post3206222

Total grain: 16.500 lb
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Pale Malt, 2 Row, US Grain 15.000 lb Yes No 78% 2 L
Debittered Black Malt Grain 1.500 lb Yes No 74% 550 L

Hops

Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Chinook 13% 2.000 oz Boil 1.000 hr Pellet 64.7
Cascade 6% 2.000 oz Boil 15.000 min Pellet 14.8
Willamette 5% 2.000 oz Boil 1.000 min Pellet 1.1
Cascade 6% 2.000 oz Dry Hop 10 days Pellet 0.0
Chinook 13% 2.000 oz Dry Hop 10 days Pellet 0.0
Total grain: 16.500 lb
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Pale Malt, 2 Row, US Grain 15.000 lb Yes No 78% 2 L
Debittered Black Malt Grain 1.500 lb Yes No 74% 550 L

Hops

Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Chinook 13% 2.000 oz Boil 1.000 hr Pellet 64.7
Cascade 6% 2.000 oz Boil 15.000 min Pellet 14.8
Willamette 5% 2.000 oz Boil 1.000 min Pellet 1.1
Cascade 6% 2.000 oz Dry Hop 10 days Pellet 0.0
Chinook 13% 2.000 oz Dry Hop 10 days Pellet 0.0

mistercameron said:

Code:

Fermentables
Ingredient		Amount	%
US 2-Row Malt		12.00 lb	 85.7 %
US Caramel 60L Malt	1.00 lb	 7.1 %
Carafa Special III	1.00 lb	 7.1 %


Hops
Variety		Alpha	Amount		IBU	When
US Chinook	 10.5 %	 1.75 oz	56.3	 60 Min From End
US Simcoe	 13.0 %	 0.50 oz	9.9	 15 Min From End
US Amarillo	 7.5 %	 1.00 oz	 0.0	At turn off
US Simcoe	 12.2 %	 1.00 oz	 0.0	 At turn off
US Simcoe	 12.5 %	 1.00 oz	 0.0	 Dry-Hopped
US Amarillo	 7.5 %	 1.00 oz	 0.0	 Dry-Hopped


Mash Schedule
Mash Type:	 Full Mash
Schedule Name:	 Single Step Infusion (67C/153F)

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Looks good. It won't be the hop-bomb style that a lot of commercial varieties are (as to whether that's what you want or prefer, I don't know). Almost a hoppy dry stout, I'd say. If you're going for the heavy hop flavor, I'd bump up to ~4oz dry hops, but it's all about your tastes.

smagee said:

Looks good. It won't be the hop-bomb style that a lot of commercial varieties are (as to whether that's what you want or prefer, I don't know). Almost a hoppy dry stout, I'd say. If you're going for the heavy hop flavor, I'd bump up to ~4oz dry hops, but it's all about your tastes.

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I definitely lean toward less IBUs in my beers, though I can appreciate a reasonable amount of of florals from late additions and dry hopping. I suppose I could start here and even add more dry hops if I need to.

The target I'm going for is similar to the 21st Amendment Black in Black. They use a different combination of malts (pale malt, crystal 45, munich, and de-bittered black) and some of the hops, but it comes out to 6.8% and 65 IBU. Mine will be a little bit different than this beer, but I think it's in the right direction.

mistercameron said:

I definitely lean toward less IBUs in my beers, though I can appreciate a reasonable amount of of florals from late additions and dry hopping. I suppose I could start here and even add more dry hops if I need to.

The target I'm going for is similar to the 21st Amendment Black in Black. They use a different combination of malts (pale malt, crystal 45, munich, and de-bittered black) and some of the hops, but it comes out to 6.8% and 65 IBU. Mine will be a little bit different than this beer, but I think it's in the right direction.

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Another idea you may want to kick around is looking into cold steeping your carafa. This allows you to pull out some good roastiness and lots of color without getting any of that astringent flavor. I do this with my CDA's with great results. I start the steeping the day before I'm going to brew by putting the carafa in a grain bag and then into a pot with cold water and let it sit overnight . The next day I just add this to my boil after my mash. I'm also a big fan of keg hopping it really gives you that fresh hop aroma and tast and it doesn't fade out over time like regular dry hopping .

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salmonslayer said:

Another idea you may want to kick around is looking into cold steeping your carafa. This allows you to pull out some good roastiness and lots of color without getting any of that astringent flavor. I do this with my CDA's with great results. I start the steeping the day before I'm going to brew by putting the carafa in a grain bag and then into a pot with cold water and let it sit overnight . The next day I just add this to my boil after my mash. I'm also a big fan of keg hopping it really gives you that fresh hop aroma and tast and it doesn't fade out over time like regular dry hopping .

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Do you just bag up loose-leaf hops and throw them in the keg?

Basically, yes. I like to suspend the bag with flavorless floss or something, just in case the dip tube catches it.

mistercameron said:

Do you just bag up loose-leaf hops and throw them in the keg?

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Yeah basically what I do is take my hop bag and sanitize a handful or two of marbles ( just enough to sink the bag with hops ) then load the bag with the marbles and then the hops. Then I just sink my bag of hops and carb up like normal. I find that by sinking them to the bottom every time you take a pull off the tap it draws the beer right over those fresh delicious hops and you get all of that floral or depending on hops citrusy goodness. I personally have not had any problems with my dip tube snagging my mesh bag but see what works for you.

I bought the ingredients for this today. The only sub I had to make at lhbs was carafa special II for the III. So, It won't be exactly the same beer, but no worries. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

Cool. I have black IPA on the mind since I just wrote up a recipe for it at my blog. I used the Briess seasonal of Midnight Wheat but our recipes aren't dissimilar. I really liked both Simcoe and Chinook with the darker flavors. Good luck! Can't wait to hear about how it turned out.

Here is a double black ipa recipe i have been working on...

% LB OZ MALT OR FERMENTABLE PPG °L
72% 20 0 Rahr Two-Row 34 4 ~
11% 3 0 Munich Malt - 20L 35 20 ~
7% 2 0 Crystal 75L 34 75 ~
5% 1 8 Cara-Pils/Dextrine 33 2 ~
5% 1 4 Carafa III 32 525 ~
27 12
Batch size: 10.0 gallons
Original Gravity
1.071 / 17.3° Plato
(1.064 to 1.074)
Final Gravity
1.022 / 5.6° Plato
(1.019 to 1.024)
Color
34° SRM / 67° EBC
(Black)
Mash Efficiency
75%
hops
USE TIME OZ VARIETY FORM AA
boil 60 mins 2.0 Chinook pellet 11.0
boil 60 mins 2.0 Nugget pellet 12.8
boil 60 mins 1.0 Warrior pellet 17.2
boil 30 mins 2.0 Cascade pellet 5.5
boil 15 mins 3.0 Chinook pellet 11.0
boil 1 min 2.0 Centennial pellet 7.0
boil 1 min 2.0 Chinook pellet 11.0
Boil: 10.0 avg gallons for 60 minutes

I brewed this today. I think it's going to be an awesome beer, though I'm a bit frustrated with a bad crush from LHBS. Like 50% eff. So this 7ish % beer is going to end up just below 5%.

If it really bugs you, you could try upping it with a pound or two of extract to compensate. I've done that once or twice with bigger beers.

I thought about that, but no extract on hand and LHBS is closed til Tuesday. could I add some later this week after fermentation has already been underway or just chalk it up to experience? I'd be only slightly concerned about oxygen in the mixture but more about an extra couple lbs of fresh DME to the yeast. I'm not super upset but I would like to try the recipe as intended since technically the beer isn't going to be this recipe unless I do something.

I did that very thing with an RIS I brewed a couple months back. Your concerns are certainly valid, but I looked at it the same way I'd see adding a simple sugar after fermentation has partially finished (which I do far more often).

It's worth noting, however, that adding complex sugars like DME after the initial fermentation has finished can up your FG. With my stout, it added around 5-7 points of nonfermentables, which for an RIS is acceptable, but in a IBA probably less so. If you decide to go that route, you might consider 1lb DME and 1lb dextrose so the simple sugar can help thin out the DME addition.

Or, just leave well enough alone and chalk it up. I just figured it couldn't hurt to present the option .

I like a little pale chocolate malt it special B in a CDA. Carafa adds the color and a hint of roast but not much in terms of depth or complexity, which is what I dig most about CDA's. Killer hop schedule, though!!

I'm sure it will turn out well, even being lower in ABV than expected. Sometimes it's not a bad thing. My India Black Ale is constructed similar to yours and it's fantastic. I went with something like 6% C60, 4% Carafa II (didn't have "III" at my LHBS), and 2% Chocolate (not the pale variety). Hops schedule was similar, only heavier on the late hops and I used Columbus, Warrior and Centennial. I don't think it's too roasty at all. In fact I was considering adding more Carafa or chocolate next time, but it's so good as is that I'm reluctant to change it. The hops are definitely prominent. Mine is 6.66 ABV and 99 IBUs, but for some reason it doesn't taste that bitter, just perfect....maybe it's the late hops and the malty yeast...dunno. I over-boiled a bit, so that contributed to the higher IBU....I was shooting for 70-ish but oh well. It's perfect just the same.

Anyway, I digress....I think you've got a winner on your hands

smagee said:

I did that very thing with an RIS I brewed a couple months back. Your concerns are certainly valid, but I looked at it the same way I'd see adding a simple sugar after fermentation has partially finished (which I do far more often).

It's worth noting, however, that adding complex sugars like DME after the initial fermentation has finished can up your FG. With my stout, it added around 5-7 points of nonfermentables, which for an RIS is acceptable, but in a IBA probably less so. If you decide to go that route, you might consider 1lb DME and 1lb dextrose so the simple sugar can help thin out the DME addition.

Or, just leave well enough alone and chalk it up. I just figured it couldn't hurt to present the option .

Click to expand...

On a side note, My mash temps got away from me a little bit, but I think they were high enough that I should have a decent body... Started at 153, dropped to 149 by the 45 min stir, then I added a gallon of hot water to bring the temp up to 153 again. I also let the mash go a little bit longer.

I like your idea. I forgot about the corn sugar in the pantry. I may just add whatever I have there... Its not much. Probably about a # but better than nothing. I think I read some other post where Yooper said DME adds about 8 points per lb in a 5 gal batch. I'll probably assume the same for the dextrose.

The body of the wort seemed fine when I did the post hydrometer sample and share with curious family. I guess we'll see

Thanks for the input!

I usually count 7pt/lb for simple sugar, 8-9pt/lb for DME (at least according to beersmith). Sounds like you're in good shape, and should have the body to support a bit of extra simple sugar. I'd definitely go that route rather than the DME, given your circumstances. Good luck!

Smagee,

Do you normally just keep plain light extract on hand for situations like this, or do you have a little bit of everything depending on how light or dark the recipe is?

I usually have a few pounds of light DME lying around for making starters (maximum of 3lbs, minimum of 1 or so). My LHBS is literally 2 miles away though, so in emergencies I can always make a quick run.

I almost never use anything darker than "light" unless I'm working from a recipe that specifically calls for it.