Brewing Salts and water profiles

Hello,
Please take it easy on me. I have been reading a lot on this topic but still have questions i cant figure out, and no one i ask seems to know.

So i cant say anything bad about my city tap water, i use it 100% and it always makes great beer. I would how ever love to learn to alter it to other profiles. I do realize that altering it may make it closer to style/profile, but not necessarily better tasting. Or at least help make a brown ale more malty accentuated and a IPA more hop accentuated.

So I occasionally stop by two local micros and both add brewing salts. First off they both have large carbon filters. One place always and only adds Gypsum and the other uses primarily Calcium Chloride.

1. Does a carbon filter remove the ions in the water or alter them? One brewer says it does remove them and the other dosent know.
2. From what i understand adding the salts changes the water profile and taste, but also helps buffer the PH? Or are salts primarily for Taste?
3. Should you rely on salts to adjust PH down or use Acidulated Malt/Lactic instead?
4. Ill list my water profile, but is there a general rule of thumb, like say add gypsum for a maltier beer and calcium chloride for a bitter' beer? Or is it completely dependent on your water profile that your using?

My profile: Please tell me any comments.
Ca - 9ppm
Mg - 2ppm
Na - 10ppm
Cl - 9ppm
SO4 - 12ppm (SO4-S = 4ppm*3=12ppm for sulfate)

Now could i only alter my water profile to change my chloride/sulfate ratio to get a more malty or bitter beer and not even worry about hitting the recommended ranges?

Thanks for any help!

Mpavlik22 said:

1. Does a carbon filter remove the ions in the water or alter them? One brewer says it does remove them and the other dosent know.

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No. A carbon filter is effective agains NOM (organics that render water musty smelling or tasting), some man made organics and chlorine/chloramine)

Mpavlik22 said:

2. From what i understand adding the salts changes the water profile and taste, but also helps buffer the PH? Or are salts primarily for Taste?

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Sodium bicarbonate and calcium carbonate add, respectively, bicarbonate and carbonate which increases the buffering capacity of the water and results in a higher mash pH. These salts should be used cautiously for this reason. Calcium salts contribute calcium ion which reacts with malt phosphate to release hydrogen ions thus lowering pH. They do not change the buffering capacity of the malts (except by removing phosphate). Sulfate and chloride can be used to control flavor.

Mpavlik22 said:

3. Should you rely on salts to adjust PH down or use Acidulated Malt/Lactic instead?

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While calcium does lower pH somewhat it takes a lot to achieve a large shift. Thus acidulated malt, sauergut, lactic acid, sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid, citric or phosphoric are the major players in mash pH control.

Mpavlik22 said:

4. Ill list my water profile, but is there a general rule of thumb, like say add gypsum for a maltier beer and calcium chloride for a bitter' beer? Or is it completely dependent on your water profile that your using?

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Sulfate tends to make beer seem drier mostly through its effects on the way hops bitterness is percieved. Sulfate makes bitterness harsher/rougher. Chloride adds to mouthfeel, sweetness and mellowness in the beer. Because of the sweetness component to this some think it makes the maltiness more pronounced and think you can move beer along a malty/hoppy axis by adjusting the ratio of sulfate to chloride. The way to make a beer hoppier is to add more hops and the way to make it maltier is to use more malt.

Mpavlik22 said:

My profile: Please tell me any comments.
Ca - 9ppm
Mg - 2ppm
Na - 10ppm
Cl - 9ppm
SO4 - 12ppm (SO4-S = 4ppm*3=12ppm for sulfate)

Click to expand...

The most important parameter, alkalinity, is missing but as everything else is low so too will the alkalinity be low. This is excellent source water. See the Primer for suggestions on how to use it.

Sorry total Alkalinity CaCO3 = 22, but total hardness CaCO3 is listed at 31.

Also nice and low. The basic conclusion stands.

Are a lot of people using acidulated malt or some other type of acid to adjust the PH?

Can someone explain the difference of Total Hardess CaC03 & Total Alkalinity CaC03 as shown on Wards in laymans terms?

Assuming you had very hard water and high ions, besides using RO or distilled water, what other solution can you do to remove the ions? Or lower them?

I assume you treat the water before mashing in and also before you sparging?

So is my water suitable for any style beer being so low on ions?
Would it be worth even adding brewing salts?

I looked at the Primer but what is the weight of a tsp of calcium chloride and gypsum?

Assuming I follow the primer, are calcium chloride and gypsum the only salts that you really need? What about Epsom salt, chalk, & baking soda?

Mpavlik22 said:

Are a lot of people using acidulated malt or some other type of acid to adjust the PH?

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More and more every day from what I can see. It is one of the secrets of good beer that is no longer so secret. I'll never go back.

Mpavlik22 said:

Can someone explain the difference of Total Hardess CaC03 & Total Alkalinity CaC03 as shown on Wards in laymans terms?

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When nature dissolves limestone she does it with carbonic acid
CaCO3 + H2CO3 --> Ca++ + 2HCO3-
Alkalinity is defined (loosely) as the amount of strong acid it would take to convert the bicarbonate back to carbonic acid:
2H+ + 2HCO3- --> 2H2CO3

i.e. the amount of H+ is the alkalinity. Thus when nature dissolves limestone (which is the way a lot of harndess and alkalinity get into water) we wind up with equivalent charges on the alkalinity defining acid (+2) and on the dissolved calcium (also +2). It therefore seems to make sense to describe the amount of hardness and alkalinity in the same terms. We have done that here - alkalinity = +2charges ; hardness = +2 charges. Chemists use the mole of charge (the equivalent) rather than the individual charge as that is a more reasonable sized unit. If we dissolve 1 millimole of CaCO3 (100 mg) with 1 mole of H2CO3 we will wind up with 2 milliequivalents of alkalinity and 2 milliequivalents of hardness. As those two mEq correspond to 100 mg of calcium carbonate we say 1 mEq is equal to 50 mg 'as CaCO3'.

Mpavlik22 said:

Assuming you had very hard water and high ions, besides using RO or distilled water, what other solution can you do to remove the ions? Or lower them?

Click to expand...

If all the hardness is temporary (hardness about equal to alkalinity) then boiling or tha addition of lime will remove calcium and alkalinity. If the hardness exceeds the alkalinity the water is said to contain 'permanent hardness' because it survives boiling. That hardness can be removed by adding sodium bicarbonate which replaces the calcium with sodium.

Ion exchange resins which swap H+ ions for cations and (OH)- ions for anions will remove whatever is in the water.

Mpavlik22 said:

I assume you treat the water before mashing in and also before you sparging?

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Some people treat mash and sparge water separately and it is sometimes necessary to do that. In most cases, however, it isn't and you can treat all the water the same.

Mpavlik22 said:

So is my water suitable for any style beer being so low on ions?
Would it be worth even adding brewing salts?

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Yes, your water is pretty much suitable for any style of beer but you would want to add minerals dependent on style.

Mpavlik22 said:

I looked at the Primer but what is the weight of a tsp of calcium chloride and gypsum?

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It is generally assumed that a tsp of either gypsum or calcium chloride is 4 - 5 grams.

Mpavlik22 said:

Assuming I follow the primer, are calcium chloride and gypsum the only salts that you really need? What about Epsom salt, chalk, & baking soda?

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You want calcium for various reasons and sulfate and chloride for their flavor effects. Yeast and other enzymes need some magnesium as a cofactor but the malt itself contains quite a bit so you do not need to add any more. Magnesium is not flavor positive. Chalk and baking soda are both alkaline and alkalinity is nearly always to be avoided. In cases where mash pH is too low either of these salts can be used to raise it.

Thank you. I appreciate your time and help.

this is awesome. I was just about to ask some of these questions.

I've had my water tested. I'd like to start using an inline RV filter. So from the discussion above it sounds like I really don't need to worry about the filter dramatically altering my profile.

Am I correct in assuming this?

ajdelange - all of your responses are always great. Between your water primer and all of your responses to questions, that forms the basis of everything I know about or do for my water. So thanks.

Although I love that this is your response for describing hardness and alkalinity "in laymans terms"

ajdelange said:

When nature dissolves limestone she does it with carbonic acid
CaCO3 + H2CO3 --> Ca++ + 2HCO3-
Alkalinity is defined (loosely) as the amount of strong acid it would take to convert the bicarbonate back to carbonic acid:
2H+ + 2HCO3- --> 2H2CO3

i.e. the amount of H+ is the alkalinity. Thus when nature dissolves limestone (which is the way a lot of harndess and alkalinity get into water) we wind up with equivalent charges on the alkalinity defining acid (+2) and on the dissolved calcium (also +2). It therefore seems to make sense to describe the amount of hardness and alkalinity in the same terms. We have done that here - alkalinity = +2charges ; hardness = +2 charges. Chemists use the mole of charge (the equivalent) rather than the individual charge as that is a more reasonable sized unit. If we dissolve 1 millimole of CaCO3 (100 mg) with 1 mole of H2CO3 we will wind up with 2 milliequivalents of alkalinity and 2 milliequivalents of hardness. As those two mEq correspond to 100 mg of calcium carbonate we say 1 mEq is equal to 50 mg 'as CaCO3'.

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I think I understood 3 words in all of that, which is why I'm glad the water primer exists!

I understand the lower alkalinity the better, but can someone explain what bicarbonate is and how it relates, as well as how it affects flavor? What is the recommended ranges?

Bicarbonate is a buffer created through the interaction of CO2 and water. Bicarbonate is the primary contributor that creates alkalinity at typical drinking water pH.

It affects flavor primarily through its effect on wort and beer pH since bicarbonate alone does not have much flavor in my opinion. DeClerck mentions that sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) has a disagreeable flavor in wort and I agree. But in the case of chalk (calcium carbonate), I have dissolved various concentrations of chalk in water and have to admit that at 200 ppm Ca and over 600 ppm HCO3, the water had a minerally taste but was not unpleasant. That is an extreme case. At lower concentrations, it would not be noticable and its a typical component of 'good' tasting drinking water. I don't think that bicarbonate itself has a flavor that is objectionable.

The result of excessive bicarbonate and therefore, alkalinity is that the wort and beer pH are too high. That increases the potential for extracting tannins and silicates from the grist and the elevated pH creates havoc for the wort and hop chemistry in the boil. All are bad things for flavor. You can read more at the Water Knowledge page on Bru'n Water's website.

As to recommended ranges for bicarbonate...there are none. A brewer should include only enough bicarbonate in their water to promote an appropriate mash pH. That 'appropriate' level is affected by a number of factors and assigning a range is impossible. The best advice I can give is that increasing percentage of crystal and/or roast malts make it more likely that more bicarbonate will be needed in the brewing water to keep the mash pH from dropping too low.

Bru'n Water does not even indicate if or when a brewing water's bicarbonate content is correct. Its too dependent upon other factors. Be careful in using any program that tells you that you need a certain alkalinity or bicarbonate content based on beer color. The programs I've seen that use that approach suggest far too much bicarbonate than necessary.

Enjoy!

On bicarbonate flavor I'm more with DeClerck (we Belgians have to stick together) than Martin but am fully aware that this is a matter of personal taste. When we moved into our house in Quebec I was floored by the first glass of water I drank from the tap. It was awful! I try to drink a lot of water (and beer) in order to prevent a recurrence of kidney stones and was having a terrible time of it. Analysis showed the water to be quite alkaline (high in bicarbonates). Now the rest of the family looks at me as if I'm nuts and when I went into town to buy an RO unit they were willing to sell me unit but wondered why I wanted one. I found it most interesting that while they tested the water for harndess, iron, pH etc. they did not test for alkalinity. I find alkalinity of 100 (bicarbonate > 122) appalling tasting. Guess we Belgians are just more sensitive to it.

But the question really is how it tastes to you, the brewer. I suggest experimenting with sodium bicarbonate dissolved in low mineral water. Increment the dose till you get to the point where it tastes unpleasant and then try to figure out how high that dose is. 1 tsp is going to be about 4 grams corresponding to 4000/83 millimoles per tsp. Each millimole yields 63 mg of bicarbonate.

One thing to keep in mind is that once mash pH is established, which can be a chore if alkalnity (bicarbonate) is present, most of the bicarbonate is converted to carbon dioxide. This means that, if, for example, you start of with water at pH 7 containing 100 mg/L bicarbonate (alkalinity 78) and put that into a mash which attains pH 5.4 the bicarbonate will be at 12.4. Thus taste really isn't the issue with bicarbonate. It is it's ability to raise mash pH that is the big concern.

'Alkalinity is bad' is probably the first law of brewing. The less of it you have the better off you are. In general. There are, of course, exceptions. When someone asks me to look at a water report the first place my eye goes is the alkalinity number and the first question I answer is 'How much RO is it going to take to knock this down to 30 or less'. Having figured that out one can go on to determine how much calcium chloride and calcium sulfate may be necessary for the particular beer.

So it bicarbonate directly related to alkalinity? Or vice versa?

In potable water at pH below 8.3 bicarbonate is responsible for nearly all the alkalinity to the point that we can approximate bicarbonate concentration as 61*alkalinity/50 where bicarb is in mg/L and alkalinity in ppm as CaCO3.