Safale US-05 near 72 hours and no activity

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beauvafr

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Strange. first time I use this strain. But it's also the first time I got this lag.

I did rehydrate the yeast. 15 min soaking @90F, a shake and then another 30 min waiting with intermittent shakes. Pitched at 70F, aerate, then let it rest 66-68F waiting for the thing to start.

Should I pitch another pack of US-05 ?
 
Typically you dont rehydrate us-05 and other fermentis strains, just pitch and let it go. Check the gravity, if it hasnt started then throw in another pack without rehydrating
 
@nicklepickles I tought rehydrating was a 'nice to have' but not mandatory. Can it actually made the thing worse ?
 
nicklepickles said:
Typically you dont rehydrate us-05 and other fermentis strains, just pitch and let it go. Check the gravity, if it hasnt started then throw in another pack without rehydrating
Click to expand...

I rehydrate all dry yeast, including US-05 and S-04. Good results with both.

To the OP, what do you mean by "no activity"? No airlock bubbles? Fortunately, that's not conclusive. Any small leak in your bucket lid (or carboy stopper) will allow the CO2 to escape via that route of least resistance. The only way to know for sure is to take a gravity reading. From what you described doing, you may well have fermentation happening just fine. US-05 is pretty darn reliable.
 
BigFloyd said:
I rehydrate all dry yeast, including US-05 and S-04. Good results with both.

To the OP, what do you mean by "no activity"? No airlock bubbles? Fortunately, that's not conclusive. Any small leak in your bucket lid (or carboy stopper) will allow the CO2 to escape via that route of least resistance. The only way to know for sure is to take a gravity reading. From what you described doing, you may well have fermentation happening just fine. US-05 is pretty darn reliable.
Click to expand...

+1 to all of this.
 
brew_ny said:
This is called 'proofing' the yeast, and is a very good idea. You add a bit of wort or you can even boils some water/sugar and let it cool and add that. If the yeast are alive you will see foam/bubbles on top of the mixture. This lets you know that they are alive and well. You definitely did the right thing by rehydrating dry yeast. Osmotic shock would have killed about 50% of the cells had you pitched directly into the wort. Even if you don't care that your pitching rate just went down by 50% you have a bunch of dead yeast that are going to settle to the bottom and begin to break down. It's a lose/lose not to rehydrate.
Click to expand...
 
Setesh said:
This is called 'proofing' the yeast, and is a very good idea. You add a bit of wort or you can even boils some water/sugar and let it cool and add that. If the yeast are alive you will see foam/bubbles on top of the mixture. This lets you know that they are alive and well. You definitely did the right thing by rehydrating dry yeast. Osmotic shock would have killed about 50% of the cells had you pitched directly into the wort. Even if you don't care that your pitching rate just went down by 50% you have a bunch of dead yeast that are going to settle to the bottom and begin to break down. It's a lose/lose not to rehydrate.
Click to expand...

+1 to everything except the reference to "proofing". I've never heard that any of the dry yeast makers suggest proofing. It's something you do with liquid yeast when you have doubts about the viability. Dry yeast has to be pretty darn old or really abused for that to be an issue.

What brew_ny described is called "attemperating" and is an essential part of rehydrating dry yeast. You want to get the rehydrated yeast to within 10-15*F of the temp of the wort before pitching. It's done by adding small amounts of the wort (which should be in the low 60's) to the warmer yeast slurry a bit at a time to slowly lower the temperature of the yeast. I find that is normally takes 3-4 additions of wort (3-5 minutes apart) into the yeast slurry to get the temp low enough to pitch. You can do this after chilling the wort, but still waiting for the suspended gunk to settle to the bottom of the kettle.

It's sort of like when you bring a fish home from the pet store. You don't just dump it into your aquarium. You put the bag in there for several minutes so that the temps get close enough for the fish to make a smooth transition.
 
PseudoChef said:
If you don't rehydrate, you're killing off about half the yeast.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to nit pick here but how is rehydrating by adding fermentable liquid to yeast any different then pitching yeast into your fermentable wort? I've heard a lot of people argue both ways on rehydrating. The only reason I could see any difference was if the yeast is bad you wouldn't have bad/dead yeast in your brew. But adding some wort to the yeast to see if its viable. Isn't that the same as adding the yeast to your fermentable wort?

Just trying to find a definitive answer one way or the other. I just don't see any difference. Why would 50% of my yeast die if I threw it in my wort. But if I added a smaller portion of wort to my yeast sample it will miraculously be better?
 
BigFloyd said:
+1 to everything except the reference to "proofing". I've never heard that any of the dry yeast makers suggest proofing. It's something you do with liquid yeast when you have doubts about the viability. Dry yeast has to be pretty darn old or really abused for that to be an issue.
Click to expand...

That's very true about attemperating the yeast, and that is also important to do. Otherwise they have a thermal shock to deal with. But proofing dry yeast is pretty common, especially to bakers. But as far as brewing goes my LHBS owner advised me to do it and Palmer mentions it in How To Brew

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

First paragraph. Any time I get yeast in the mail I assume it has had a rough time of it. I almost always proof to make sure they yeasties are awake and ready to work. I guess it just makes me feel better. I don't feel like I have to go check for signs of fermentation constantly. I can be a bit of a nervous beer dad otherwise :D
 
GilSwillBasementBrews said:
I'm not trying to nit pick here but how is rehydrating by adding fermentable liquid to yeast any different then pitching yeast into your fermentable wort? I've heard a lot of people argue both ways on rehydrating. The only reason I could see any difference was if the yeast is bad you wouldn't have bad/dead yeast in your brew. But adding some wort to the yeast to see if its viable. Isn't that the same as adding the yeast to your fermentable wort?

Just trying to find a definitive answer one way or the other. I just don't see any difference. Why would 50% of my yeast die if I threw it in my wort. But if I added a smaller portion of wort to my yeast sample it will miraculously be better?
Click to expand...

You aren't adding fermentable wort to rehydrate. You rehydrate with water THEN you add wort to bring the temperature of the yeast mixture down to that of the beer. By the time you add the wort the yeast have already gone through their rehydration, you are just trying to get the temps close before pitching.
 
brew_ny said:
when you rehydrated the yeast did you see activity? you should have seen it get foamy

I always rehydrate my dry yeast then mix a bit of wort in with to get it to the same temp as the wort I am pitching it in

all the best

S_M
Click to expand...

Yes, i did get the foam. ;) Great trick for the wort mix. I'll do it next time. Cheers!
 
BigFloyd said:
I rehydrate all dry yeast, including US-05 and S-04. Good results with both.

To the OP, what do you mean by "no activity"? No airlock bubbles? Fortunately, that's not conclusive. Any small leak in your bucket lid (or carboy stopper) will allow the CO2 to escape via that route of least resistance. The only way to know for sure is to take a gravity reading. From what you described doing, you may well have fermentation happening just fine. US-05 is pretty darn reliable.
Click to expand...

Yup, no airlock bubbles. I will look for leak tomorrow first thing in the morning.
 
Setesh said:
You aren't adding fermentable wort to rehydrate. You rehydrate with water THEN you add wort to bring the temperature of the yeast mixture down to that of the beer. By the time you add the wort the yeast have already gone through their rehydration, you are just trying to get the temps close before pitching.
Click to expand...

Ok that makes more sense. I guess I was just confused by your earlier post on using sugar/water or wort. I still am unsure why the yeast would need to be hydrated to have fermentables added to them but I digress. Thanks for the knowledge. Always plenty of it floating around on here to learn something from someone.

Originally Posted by Setesh
This is called 'proofing' the yeast, and is a very good idea. You add a bit of wort or you can even boils some water/sugar and let it cool and add that. If the yeast are alive you will see foam/bubbles on top of the mixture. This lets you know that they are alive and well. You definitely did the right thing by rehydrating dry yeast. Osmotic shock would have killed about 50% of the cells had you pitched directly into the wort. Even if you don't care that your pitching rate just went down by 50% you have a bunch of dead yeast that are going to settle to the bottom and begin to break down. It's a lose/lose not to rehydrate.
 
I just went through the same thing bro, the best thing is to check your gravity.
 
beauvafr said:
Yup, no airlock bubbles. I will look for leak tomorrow first thing in the morning.
Click to expand...

While you're at it, that would be a fine time to check the gravity and compare it to the OG. What was your OG?
 
I use US-05 a lot and depending on your OG it could be done. It's a fast working yeast. if your fermenter is not sealed thoroughly, you may not get any airlock activity, it has happened to me quite a few times.
 
When I opened it there was nice layer of kreusen. 2 days ago there was only some froth spot. So I was pretty sure you guys were right and there was a leak somewhere. Gravity were down from 1.59 to 1.054. So maybe not a strong start, but I'm confident it should go well now that real activity has shown.

And I finally found the leak (stupid lid!). Now the airlock is popping regularly under 10 seconds!

In the end I learned some tricks about yeast (thanks to you guys), I learned that airlock is not the real indication of an healthy fermentation, and also that I should get another PET bottle to replace my bucket. ;)

Cheers!
 
beauvafr said:
When I opened it there was nice layer of kreusen. 2 days ago there was only some froth spot. So I was pretty sure you guys were right and there was a leak somewhere. Gravity were down from 1.59 to 1.054. So maybe not a strong start, but I'm confident it should go well now that real activity has shown.

And I finally found the leak (stupid lid!). Now the airlock is popping regularly under 10 seconds!

In the end I learned some tricks about yeast (thanks to you guys), I learned that airlock is not the real indication of an healthy fermentation, and also that I should get another PET bottle to replace my bucket. ;)

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Don't give up on the bucket just because of this. I'm a fan of buckets and that's primarily what I use. You just have to make sure that you press down all around the lid. I haven't had one fail to seal yet, although it's bound to happen one of these days.

Oh, you may be missing a zero in what you posted for your OG. :confused:
 
BigFloyd said:
Don't give up on the bucket just because of this. I'm a fan of buckets and that's primarily what I use. You just have to make sure that you press down all around the lid. I haven't had one fail to seal yet, although it's bound to happen one of these days.

Oh, you may be missing a zero in what you posted for your OG. :confused:
Click to expand...

You got it, a zero I missed :) As for the bucket, it's usable (since I will not make the error again) but I also like to be able to see through it. A better bottle / carboy is perfect for this. I also had a bucket that got messy inside while doing a saison on high temps and now it is permanently stained.. I know it's not that bad but I don't like the idea of fermenting in a stained vessel.
 
I just used us-05 too and had no airlock activity. I saw the krusen in the bucket and can't seem to find any leaks. Just confused.
 
nicklepickles said:
Typically you dont rehydrate us-05 and other fermentis strains, just pitch and let it go. Check the gravity, if it hasnt started then throw in another pack without rehydrating
Click to expand...

That's poor practice as the osmotic pressure difference will kill a lot of the yeast cells.

PseudoChef said:
If you don't rehydrate, you're killing off about half the yeast.
Click to expand...

Exactly/

GilSwillBasementBrews said:
I'm not trying to nit pick here but how is rehydrating by adding fermentable liquid to yeast any different then pitching yeast into your fermentable wort? I've heard a lot of people argue both ways on rehydrating. The only reason I could see any difference was if the yeast is bad you wouldn't have bad/dead yeast in your brew. But adding some wort to the yeast to see if its viable. Isn't that the same as adding the yeast to your fermentable wort?

Just trying to find a definitive answer one way or the other. I just don't see any difference. Why would 50% of my yeast die if I threw it in my wort. But if I added a smaller portion of wort to my yeast sample it will miraculously be better?
Click to expand...

You don't add it to a small sample of wort. You rehydrate in water. As the dehydrated yeast is being hydrated it is highly vulnerable to osmotic pressure due to a weakened cell wall. Adding it to wort is like smacking it in the face with a sledge hammer. Dry yeast is also coated with yeast nutrient and needs some time to absorb the yeasts version of Popeyes spinach.

You can add wort to the fully rehydrated yeast in order to bring it to the wort temperature before pitching.

wrongdekade said:
I just used us-05 too and had no airlock activity. I saw the krusen in the bucket and can't seem to find any leaks. Just confused.
Click to expand...

Buckets are notorious for not sealing 100%. DOn't worry about it. A hydrometer or refractometer are the only real ways to tell how the yeast is progressing. Krausen is a good sign of yeast activity but often less noticeable if say using a lager yeast.
 
Buckets are notorious for not sealing 100%. Don't worry about it. A hydrometer or refractometer are the only real ways to tell how the yeast is progressing. Krausen is a good sign of yeast activity but often less noticeable if say using a lager yeast.

+1. I bought a new bucket and used an old lid on my last 2 batches. No airlock activity, but after 3 weeks the beers finished at 1.015.
 
Buckets are hit or miss. I've found that as I match buckets to lids that seal the air lock bubbles better. But I've got some buckets that wont seal with anything and the only way I really see anything is when 2 weeks has passed and I crack the lid to see activity like a yeast ring above the beer line.

I've done both with dry yeast though, pitched it right in (just this week to save a batch that was apparently a dead Wyeast 1026) And re hydrated before use.

Proofing your yeast is never a bad idea, especially if you get it mail order.
 
US-05 in homebrew form - instructions say to sprinkle into wort.
US-05 in professional brewer form - instructions say must be properly rehydrated.
Interesting double standard :confused:
 
Setesh said:
US-05 in homebrew form - instructions say to sprinkle into wort.
US-05 in professional brewer form - instructions say must be properly rehydrated.
Interesting double standard :confused:
Click to expand...

Fermentis recommends rehydrating. Their data sheet describes rehydrating as does a child-website of theirs: http://www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/

You should rehydrate.

Also, as far as instructions on packaging is concerned, WL vials and Wyeast Smack packs say to pitch directly with no starter. If you follow liquid instructions on the package, you pitch about 100 billion cells. If you follow dry package instructions, you pitch about 100 billion cells. At least they are all consistent in giving bad advice on the packaging, right? :D
 
I have pitched both ways with this yeast. Same lag time. Finishes at the same time.
I like the idea of dry pitching. Less chance of the introduction of infections (although I've never had an infection due to re-hydrating.)
 
Jacinthebox said:
I have pitched both ways with this yeast. Same lag time. Finishes at the same time.
I like the idea of dry pitching. Less chance of the introduction of infections (although I've never had an infection due to re-hydrating.)
Click to expand...

Do what you like and what works for you. :mug:

The science is in on this issue and it's been covered on multiple threads as well as other websites and books. You stress the yeast substantially and kill up to half of the cells you pitch when you don't properly rehydrate, plain and simple. You'll still make beer though, just like when you direct pitch a vial with no starter. If you are going to spend time crafting a recipe, following best practices in making your wort with quality ingredients, and wait as long as you need to in order to have a delicious home brew, I just don't understand why someone wouldn't do the best thing for their yeast. They are what makes the beer, after all. That's ok though, I don't need to understand. As long as you know what happens pitching dry vs rehydrating, the choice is yours and so is the beer.
 
Jacinthebox said:
I have pitched both ways with this yeast. Same lag time. Finishes at the same time.
I like the idea of dry pitching. Less chance of the introduction of infections (although I've never had an infection due to re-hydrating.)
Click to expand...

Interesting! Do you pitch one pouch for a 5 gallons?
 
boydster said:
Do what you like and what works for you. :mug:

The science is in on this issue and it's been covered on multiple threads as well as other websites and books. You stress the yeast substantially and kill up to half of the cells you pitch when you don't properly rehydrate, plain and simple. You'll still make beer though, just like when you direct pitch a vial with no starter. If you are going to spend time crafting a recipe, following best practices in making your wort with quality ingredients, and wait as long as you need to in order to have a delicious home brew, I just don't understand why someone wouldn't do the best thing for their yeast. They are what makes the beer, after all. That's ok though, I don't need to understand. As long as you know what happens pitching dry vs rehydrating, the choice is yours and so is the beer.
Click to expand...

the us-05 pack says to sprinkle on wort...so I guess they think it's ok to do so???

it has worked out both ways
 
Jacinthebox said:
the us-05 pack says to sprinkle on wort...so I guess they think it's ok to do so??? it has worked out both ways
Click to expand...

Why is this topic so difficult for some to grasp?

The package instructions are made to be idiot-proof b/c it is a product designed for amateurs. Dry-pitching will make beer, but it is not optimal practice for yeast health and viability. This is not debatable and has been proven out by experiment.
 
Setesh said:
US-05 in homebrew form - instructions say to sprinkle into wort.
US-05 in professional brewer form - instructions say must be properly rehydrated.
Interesting double standard :confused:
Click to expand...
Not sure it's a double standard so much as the answers here versus the answers there aren't the same. As the guy below said, dry yeast pitched without rehydrating will make beer all the same. Even as a new brewer though, rehydrating is what I do. The LHBS says I can just pitch; I do not.
g-star said:
Why is this topic so difficult for some to grasp?

The package instructions are made to be idiot-proof b/c it is a product designed for amateurs. Dry-pitching will make beer, but it is not optimal practice for yeast health and viability. This is not debatable and has been proven out by experiment.
Click to expand...
Well, I don't know if it is fair to day that dry yeast is a product designed for amateurs. That seems a bit like you're saying that the use of dry yeast completely shows someone's lack of skill and knowledge.

That said, rehydration of yeast to me is the default. I want to give the yeast as much chance as possible to survive.
 
g-star said:
Why is this topic so difficult for some to grasp?

The package instructions are made to be idiot-proof b/c it is a product designed for amateurs. Dry-pitching will make beer, but it is not optimal practice for yeast health and viability. This is not debatable and has been proven out by experiment.
Click to expand...

who is having a difficult time grasping this?

do what you want, others will do the same...good beer is the end result, so who really cares?

Science be damn'd, I like to let Jebus take the wheel
 
Setesh said:
... proofing dry yeast is pretty common, especially to bakers. But as far as brewing goes my LHBS owner advised me to do it and Palmer mentions it in How To Brew

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

First paragraph.
Click to expand...
In the updated paper book, Palmer admits that in his first edition (ie the online freebie version) he gave bad advice to add sugar to proof the yeast.
 
Has anyone ever taken say a 10 gal batch split it between 2 ferm vessels and pitched a pack straight in one, while rehydrating the other pack before pitching then seeing if there is a difference? I have heard so much about rehydrating vs not needing to. yet i have never had a side by side comparision. same batch with the only variable being the yeast. If so i would like to hear what those results were.
 
Jacinthebox said:
the us-05 pack says to sprinkle on wort...so I guess they think it's ok to do so???

it has worked out both ways
Click to expand...

They acknowledge that it will make beer if you just sprinkle it into the wort. The vials from WL and the smack packs from Wyeast also say you can pitch them without a starter. Again, it will make beer. Neither of those suggestions is optimal.

There just simply is no debate about what happens when you sprinkle dry yeast into wort. You kill a large percentage of them.

If your recipe calls for an ounce of Cascade hops at 20 minutes, do you toss in half an ounce of old, dried up, stale hops you found loose underneath your refrigerator the last time you cleaned under there and just say "eff it, this will be good enough"? Of course not. Why would you exercise what is essentially the same mentality when it comes to the yeast?

From Fermentis (http://www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/):
Before dry yeast can start fermenting, they need to absorb the water they lost during the drying process.
Yeasts are living organisms and rehydration temperature is critical for good yeast performance.
Fermentis recommends that top fermenting (ale) yeasts are rehydrated at a temperature between 25-29°C (77-84°F) and that bottom fermenting yeasts (lager) are rehydrated at a temperature range of 21-25°C (69-77°F).
Rehydration is done in a vessel outside the fermentor. The objective is to reduce the lag phase : the time necessary for the yeasts to start fermenting sugars to alcohol after inoculating the wort.
Rehydration is a simple procedure.
Click to expand...

From Danstar (http://www.danstaryeast.com/about/frequently-asked-questions):
Why is rehydrating the dry yeast before pitching important?

Dry beer yeast needs to be reconstituted in a gentle way. During rehydration the cell membrane undergoes changes which can be lethal to yeast. In order to reconstitute the yeast as gently as possible (and minimize/avoid any damage) yeast producers developed specific rehydration procedures. Although most dry beer yeast will work if pitched directly into wort, it is recommended to follow the rehydration instructions to insure the optimum performance of the yeast.
Click to expand...

Here is yet another resource about proper handling of dry yeast, from Dr. Clayton Cone: http://home.comcast.net/~mzapx1/FAQ/Rehydrate.pdf
Every strain of yeast has its own optimum rehydration temperature - all of them range between 95 F to 105F (most of them closer to 105°F). The dried yeast cell wall is fragile and it is the first few minutes (possibly seconds) of rehydration that the warm temperature is critical while it is reconstituting its cell wall structure. As you drop the initial temperature of the water from 95 to 85 or 75 or 65F the yeast leached out more and more of its insides damaging the each cell. The yeast viability also drops proportionally. At 95 - 105 F, there is 100% recovery of the viable dry yeast. At 60F, there can be as much as 60% dead cells. The water should be tap water with the normal amount of hardness present. The hardness is essential for good recovery: 250 -500 ppm hardness is ideal. This means that deionized or distilled water should not be used. Ideally, the warm rehydration water should contain about 0.5 - 1.0% yeast extract.

For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right in and seriously damage the cells. The moment that the cell wall is properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of the cell. That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or must. Very dilute wort seems to be OK.
Click to expand...

I am still of the "Do what you like" mindset, because you have to drink your beer and not me. That said, you really shouldn't be advising people to do something that is a proven bad practice and telling them it doesn't make a difference. It does make a difference.
 
boydster said:
They acknowledge that it will make beer if you just sprinkle it into the wort. The vials from WL and the smack packs from Wyeast also say you can pitch them without a starter. Again, it will make beer. Neither of those suggestions is optimal.

There just simply is no debate about what happens when you sprinkle dry yeast into wort. You kill a large percentage of them.

If your recipe calls for an ounce of Cascade hops at 20 minutes, do you toss in half an ounce of old, dried up, stale hops you found loose underneath your refrigerator the last time you cleaned under there and just say "eff it, this will be good enough"? Of course not. Why would you exercise what is essentially the same mentality when it comes to the yeast?

From Fermentis (http://www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/):


From Danstar (http://www.danstaryeast.com/about/frequently-asked-questions):


Here is yet another resource about proper handling of dry yeast, from Dr. Clayton Cone: http://home.comcast.net/~mzapx1/FAQ/Rehydrate.pdf


I am still of the "Do what you like" mindset, because you have to drink your beer and not me. That said, you really shouldn't be advising people to do something that is a proven bad practice and telling them it doesn't make a difference. It does make a difference.
Click to expand...

I advised that I have done both...both had great results...lag time was the same, and both beer finished at the same time and FG.

I didn't advise anything that the company didn't already advised to do.

not really getting how using old dried up hops is anywhere near the same as using yeast as instructed.

I have never made a starter, but I have pitched both dry and rehydrated.

where are the bodies (bad beer)?

relax, i'm a homebrewer...its an art, and a science...
 

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