Is cleaning always necessary?

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RunnerDude

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I read the sticky on cleaning and sanitizing and I do understand the difference. I also read several threads on cleaning, but I'm still not certain on this.

So here's my question. With all of my bottles, my plastic fermenting bucket and my glass carboy for secondary, I immediately rinse and shake them vigorously with hot water and with the bucket I hand wiped it. I then let them dry upside down. There is no visible staining at all. My local store sold me PBW along with Star San, but I'm not seeing why it's necessary if things are visibly clean? Should I be using a cleaner anyway? Obviously if there is gunk or staining left after rinsing, I would use a cleaner, but my first two batches have produces nothing that didn't come off quite easily.

The plastic bucket does still smell a bit, but I've heard that will never go away. And the carboy has a very faint odor left. It was stronger right after I rinsed it two days ago, but is now much more faint.

The brew kettle was washed with dish soap which I now realize was probably not the best thing? The bottles were initially washed with dish soap, but have since been used and were not rewashed that way.

On a related note, if I do use the PBW, is it safe on plastic fermenting buckets? I know one is to use a "non-abrasive" cleaner, but I don't know if PBW qualifies?

Thanks!
 
to answer your question, YES, cleaning and sanitizing is a NECESSARY part of brewing. no way out of it, unless you want infected or bad tasting beer, you MUST CLEAN AND SANITIZE ANY EQUIPMENT THAT ISN'T BEING BOILED.
 
You need to sanitize because you can't see what's on the surface. It wouldn't be visibly dirty if it was contaminated with bacteria or wild yeast. When you do the dishes do you just rinse stuff and put it in the cupboard? Same thing with brewing equipment. Just be diligent. If you have starsan it's multi use so just keep a bucket around and dunk when necessary. Dish soap is ok but PBW removes beer stone so it's better and I use it on my buckets without any problems.
 
To be clear I sanitize everything. My question is that if it's visibly clean and dried fully immediately after use, can I ONLY sanitize? Or is there still a compelling reason to clean with a cleaner before sanitizing?
 
As soon as I'm done using something, I rinse it with hot water and gently (in the case of plastic equipment) scrub until visibly spotless. I then sanitize it and let it dry. I sanitize again just before I use it the next time. I may use Sun oxygen cleaner from Walmart if my primary bucket is extra grimy, otherwise I don't bother.

I feel comfortable with this approach, though admittedly I'm not a 'belt and suspenders' kind of guy. I've never had a sanitation-related problem but your results may vary.
 
the_mox said:
My rule is if it looks clean, its clean, but if there is even a shadow of doubt, I clean it.
Click to expand...

i agree.

my method is just to keep a few gallons of oxy clean solution in any buckets not in use. when the time comes to use them, i empty, rinse and sanitize.
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
+1
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Generally agree here. I make sure to thoroughly clean all of my equipment with after brewing with a good hot water rinse and wipe off any debris that may be present. The last batch (bottled last night), was fermented in a bucket that only got rinsed, not cleaned with PBW or soap and everything went well.

I sanitize the hell out of everything before I brew/bottle but only clean things as needed. I think the most important thing is to not be lazy after brewing or even drinking your homebrew. After I finish a bottle, it immediately gets rinsed thoroughly and stored upside down. Makes everything easier that way.
 
Just because something looks clean does not mean it is clean. Take 5-10 minutes before you use anything and clean it. Cleaning and sanitizing is one of the most basic, simple, and important processes of brewing. Take the necessary steps to ensure you are using clean and sanitized equipment before you brew.
 
Beer brewing is where it is a good thing to be OCD.

By the way, I have a enough one-step for three brews, but what is a great sanitizer for use in any future brews? It doesn't have to be no-rinse and I might actually prefer rinsing it out being a little OCD on the chemical front.
 
To be honest, I just rinse a lot of things. If it has chunks it gets cleaned. Things like siphon tubing usually just get rinsed. Haven't had any problems. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be more diligent with it but it has worked so far.
 
Hi. My name is John Doe. I work at McDonalds. I just used the restroom, and boy was it a mess when I was done. I rinsed my hands under hot water because I don't like the smell of soap. Here is your order, I made it myself. I hope you enjoy the subtle overtones and flavors of Salmonella, E. coli, Staphylococcus, and Clostridia that were under my nails and hiding in the wrinkles of my hands. Not to mention the proteins in my feces that the hot water couldn't quite get off of my hands. :cross:
 
RunnerDude said:
I read the sticky on cleaning and sanitizing and I do understand the difference. I also read several threads on cleaning, but I'm still not certain on this.

So here's my question. With all of my bottles, my plastic fermenting bucket and my glass carboy for secondary, I immediately rinse and shake them vigorously with hot water and with the bucket I hand wiped it. I then let them dry upside down. There is no visible staining at all. My local store sold me PBW along with Star San, but I'm not seeing why it's necessary if things are visibly clean? Should I be using a cleaner anyway? Obviously if there is gunk or staining left after rinsing, I would use a cleaner, but my first two batches have produces nothing that didn't come off quite easily.

The plastic bucket does still smell a bit, but I've heard that will never go away. And the carboy has a very faint odor left. It was stronger right after I rinsed it two days ago, but is now much more faint.

The brew kettle was washed with dish soap which I now realize was probably not the best thing? The bottles were initially washed with dish soap, but have since been used and were not rewashed that way.

On a related note, if I do use the PBW, is it safe on plastic fermenting buckets? I know one is to use a "non-abrasive" cleaner, but I don't know if PBW qualifies?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Well, if you don't bother with the PBW, your lawn will sure be happy - mine got to drink 5 funky gallons of something that was supposed to have been altbier just last night because I got confused, thought a couple of carboys were soaking in cleanser, rinsed them out, sanitized and used them. Star san is good stuff, but you need to apply a little soap and elbow grease first.
 
I rinse out the gunk in the fermenters as much as I can,then put 3TBSP of PBW in them & fill with water to soak for 5-7 days. Then rinse it out again,I put a couple gallons of clean water in to run through the spigot to rinse it out. Then remove & soak spigots in PBW with seals,lock lugs,& all. I have a set of aquarium lift tube brushes I bought for cleaning the small ID stuff. Then rinse them & soak in starsan for a while while I use a starsan soaked hand towel to clean the spigot mounting holes & seal(s). Then reassemble & put it back on the FV stand till needed,lid loosely in place.
Now that I got the spray wand from Midwest for Christmas,I'm going to see if I can just blast the gunk off with tap water (it adapts to the sink faucet). It'd be great to cut out the soaking time,& just use some PBW & a soft cloth afterward to wipe it cleaner.
 
Thanks everyone. Seems that the consensus is that the immediate rinse, shake/rub to visible cleanliness and dry is an acceptable, if not ideal, way to go. I'll probably stick with that for now.

Should the faint odor in my glass carboy concern me? Is that a reason to soak it in PBW? Or is it normal for some faint odor to remain?
 
medusa1066 said:
Hi. My name is John Doe. I work at McDonalds. I just used the restroom, and boy was it a mess when I was done. I rinsed my hands under hot water because I don't like the smell of soap. Here is your order, I made it myself. I hope you enjoy the subtle overtones and flavors of Salmonella, E. coli, Staphylococcus, and Clostridia that were under my nails and hiding in the wrinkles of my hands. Not to mention the proteins in my feces that the hot water couldn't quite get off of my hands. :cross:
Click to expand...

Awesome! I would say this perfectly illustrates the need for being OCD when it comes to keeping things clean in the brewery. Personally, I've worked way too hard on my brew and waited way too long to drink it to skip any steps when it comes to making sure my equipment is clean as well as sanitary.
 
I just fill my carboy all the way to the top, add some OxyClean and let it soak overnight. It takes care of odors and other junk left behind from a previous batch.
 
Yup,that's one thing a soak in PBW will do. But I've also noticed smells from not removing the spigots & cleaning them,& the mounting hole area. Do that,& no more smells. Even cleaner smelling after using starsan on everything as well. My plastic fermenters still smell clean wirth this method right before filling them again.
 
medusa1066 said:
Hi. My name is John Doe. I work at McDonalds. I just used the restroom, and boy was it a mess when I was done. I rinsed my hands under hot water because I don't like the smell of soap. Here is your order, I made it myself. I hope you enjoy the subtle overtones and flavors of Salmonella, E. coli, Staphylococcus, and Clostridia that were under my nails and hiding in the wrinkles of my hands. Not to mention the proteins in my feces that the hot water couldn't quite get off of my hands. :cross:
Click to expand...

So McDonalds just needs some StarSan, right?
 
hagelini said:
I just fill my carboy all the way to the top, add some OxyClean and let it soak overnight. It takes care of odors and other junk left behind from a previous batch.
Click to expand...

Yup, that is my method too. I soak all post-boil items (not aluminum) in Oxyclean Free and very hot water for several hours to overnight. I had a tiny bit of "gunk" in a glass carboy that I filled with hot oxyclean water. The next day the water was perfectly clear. I loves me some oxyclean free!

I have found you can be lazy about sanitizing and get away with it for a while but eventually the "infection boogeyman" will come calling!

Keep it clean and keep on brewing!
 
medusa1066 said:
Hi. My name is John Doe. I work at McDonalds. I just used the restroom, and boy was it a mess when I was done. I rinsed my hands under hot water because I don't like the smell of soap. Here is your order, I made it myself. I hope you enjoy the subtle overtones and flavors of Salmonella, E. coli, Staphylococcus, and Clostridia that were under my nails and hiding in the wrinkles of my hands. Not to mention the proteins in my feces that the hot water couldn't quite get off of my hands. :cross:
Click to expand...

This would be a great analogy if anyone here was advocating rinsing with water ONLY, but I don't think anyone is. At best, we could expect John Doe to wash his hands with hot water and soap. Doubt we could expect him to follow up with a sanitizer.

Given the choice between hot water and sanitizer (and oxyclean when necessary) or hot water and soap (as you probably get with your burger flipper), I'll take hot water and sanitizer.
 
After each brew/bottle session I disassemble and wash everything with Oxyclean Free, rinse with hot water and dry. Carboys and buckets soak 24 hours after being emptied, then are scrubbed with terry cloth towel, rinsed, dried and stored. For smaller stuff I have assorted brushes and tube cleaners. I mean everything, manifold, tubing, valves, ... everything.
Prior to use I will repeat the process. Anything that touches the wort after boiling is sanitized.
 
Ok, so the tide has turned to CLEAN IT.

How about bottles? From my reading, it seems most people just rinse and dry them immediately and then sanitize before bottling. Am I wrong here? And if that is true, what's the difference with a carboy? The krausen? Why clean a carboy if not bottles?
 
jwalker1140 said:
I'm not sure anyone here is advocating rinsing with water ONLY, which is what this analogy suggests. At best, we could expect John Doe to wash his hands with soap and hot water. Doubt we could expect him to follow up with a sanitizer.

Given the choice between hot water and sanitizer (and oxyclean when necessary) or hot water and soap (as you probably get with your burger flipper), I'll take hot water and sanitizer.
Click to expand...

I believe the OP was advocating Hot Water, physical agitation, followed by sanitizer. The question is, will simple physical agitation (wiping) remove the vast majority of proteins, biofilm, etc.. to let the sanitizer do its job. This becomes especially important with plastic.

Even if John the Burger Flipper used an Ethanol or QUAT based sanitizer after blowing up the restroom and washing with hot water, he does not use a surfactant to remove the poopoo. The poopoo provides a hideout. There is no replacement for a cleaning agent; there is no replacement for a sanitizer.

Why Cleaning Matters | Five Star Chemicals & Supplies, Inc.

Sorry for the rant, I was involved in a bit of cleaning validation at my old job, and I miss it dearly:)
 
RunnerDude said:
Ok, so the tide has turned to CLEAN IT.

How about bottles? From my reading, it seems most people just rinse and dry them immediately and then sanitize before bottling. Am I wrong here? And if that is true, what's the difference with a carboy? The krausen? Why clean a carboy if not bottles?
Click to expand...

I think that carboy cleaning drill atatchment would be great with PBW for cleaning glass carboys. When I 1st recycle bottles,I soak them in a $5 homer cheapo bucket with enough PBW to cover them by 2" or so when the bottles are full of cleaner. Let'em soak overnight,& all the labels,glue,& gunk are loose & floating around. Then a bottle brush & dobie make short work of them. Rinse,dry on bottle tree,& store in covered boxes.
Otherwise,rinsing them out when emptied is fine to get out the loose trub in the bottom of the bottles. It's kept moist by the little bit of beer in the bottom,so getting it out is quick & easy. Then onto the bottle tree to dry.
 
When I used to bottle, the night before bottling day, I loaded a big cooler full of empties, filled it up with warm water and OxyClean, and let it soak over night. The next day I then would rinse them out, sanitize them, and bottle.

Maybe I overdo it, but I'd rather be safe then ruin a batch because I was too lazy to do the work to ensure everything was clean.
 
unionrdr said:
I think that carboy cleaning drill atatchment would be great with PBW for cleaning glass carboys. When I 1st recycle bottles,I soak them in a $5 homer cheapo bucket with enough PBW to cover them by 2" or so when the bottles are full of cleaner. Let'em soak overnight,& all the labels,glue,& gunk are loose & floating around. Then a bottle brush & dobie make short work of them. Rinse,dry on bottle tree,& store in covered boxes.
Otherwise,rinsing them out when emptied is fine to get out the loose trub in the bottom of the bottles. It's kept moist by the little bit of beer in the bottom,so getting it out is quick & easy. Then onto the bottle tree to dry.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Thanks. What do you consider the difference between 1st recycling and thereafter? I.E. why do you clean the first time but not thereafter? My initial thought would be that, with the exception of the outside of the bottle, it would be the same situation after drinking a commercially made brew as a homebrew. But maybe I'm missing something.
 
We did an experiment at Uni to demonstrate just how "lively" the air in the average home is.

1. Take a clear Chinese takeaway carton or lunch box and completely sanitize it as best you can. Make sure it can seal airtight.
2. Pour enough tomato soup into the carton to cover the bottom fully.
3. Immediately seal the tub, then secondarily seal it by warping in cling film.
4. Leave at room temperature in light, but not direct sun light for 2 weeks.
5. Open it and count your bacteria and fungus colonies. Work out the volume of air you sealed into the tub and therefore the number of nasties per cubic meter of air.

When I did it, I got a result that was scary. It was something like 400 fungi spurs per cubic meter!

Edit: Tomato soup is usually sterilized before canning. Hence it's use in this experiment.
 
medusa1066 said:
I believe the OP was advocating Hot Water, physical agitation, followed by sanitizer. The question is, will simple physical agitation (wiping) remove the vast majority of proteins, biofilm, etc.. to let the sanitizer do its job. This becomes especially important with plastic.

Even if John the Burger Flipper used an Ethanol or QUAT based sanitizer after blowing up the restroom and washing with hot water, he does not use a surfactant to remove the poopoo. The poopoo provides a hideout. There is no replacement for a cleaning agent; there is no replacement for a sanitizer.
Click to expand...

Understood. Good point!
 
venquessa, I am no science expert, and I agree that its always best to clean and sanitize before you use anything, but isn't that a flawed experiment because while you are trapping mold spores in the air and then sealing them into the container, that really isn't accurate to what would normally be in the air in our homes because you are giving them a small, air tight, perfect environment to grow? To the number of spores in that container really only proves that you were successful in getting a mold spore from the air into your container. Just saying...
 
Yes, it gives you a figure based on how many spores where present in the volume of air you trapped. Assuming everything else was sterile. You extrapolate that up to work out the number per cubic meter. There were quite a few of them, and, if I recall at least one other, different looking patch.

It's basically a simple homemade petr dish (sp?)... for stuff that likes tomato soup of course.
 
Interesting, see I know little about science, I was just curious. My wife loves tomato soup, I'll let her know the next time she makes it that she is eating petri dish soup.
 
One thing to keep in mind is unless you are in a cleanroom environment, there is bacteria on everything, even in the water you clean your equipment with, even in the air ( most of household dust is skin that is filled with bacteria). But bacteria doest like heat, especially heat above 170 degrees which is why boiling kills the bugs. Now qhen you add your yeast to the wort ( which as stated above has bacteria from the air and equipment) it converts sugars to alcohol, which lmakes an unfavorable atmosphere for most bugs. So the bacteria multiples, but so does the alcohol% of the beer. If your yeast wins out over the bacteria youre in good shape, otherwise the bacteria growth can be substantial and you get an infection, which sucks.

I clean my equipment with starsan but mostly wash everything with tap. Ive never gotten an infection, and the only time ive gotten an off flavor was because of how i peocessed thw grain. To be safe, wash and sanitize the hell out of everything. Of all the things that can ruin a beer, bacteria shouldnt be one of them if your cleaning habits and processing methods are sound.
 
I clean and sanitize before and after. I realize I'm probably a little OCD, but after all the effort I put into to brew, I'd hate to have something bad happen. If I just made it visibly clean, who knows what's left behind that can sit and grow (and make my equipment stink) before I brew again. Sanitizing is just one small extra step, why not?
 
After all the time and money I have invested in my brew equipment and not to mention the time it takes to do all this stuff... why even consider not cleaning/washing and sanitizing every single time?

I know I don't want to take that chance.

Gary
 
RunnerDude said:
Interesting. Thanks. What do you consider the difference between 1st recycling and thereafter? I.E. why do you clean the first time but not thereafter? My initial thought would be that, with the exception of the outside of the bottle, it would be the same situation after drinking a commercially made brew as a homebrew. But maybe I'm missing something.
Click to expand...

At least for me, I might be getting the empties from someone other than myself, so no idea whether they were rinsed. Oxyclean takes the crud right out. After that, since they are now my bottles, they always get rinsed, then just need to be sanitized.
 
mikeho said:
At least for me, I might be getting the empties from someone other than myself, so no idea whether they were rinsed. Oxyclean takes the crud right out. After that, since they are now my bottles, they always get rinsed, then just need to be sanitized.
Click to expand...

Aha. Understood. If I hadn't immediately rinsed them myself, I'd do the same.
 

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