Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

Dual stage temperature controller and a small heater

saq said:

Dual stage temperature controller and a small heater

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Oh, and I am too cheap to buy or build such things. I think I am going to just do the water changing thing. Pain to do, but for a week maybe I can suck it up.

Since_Uuz_Up said:

RJ, great discussion. I enjoyed it. We have cases of Westy 12 clone made with our D-180 of varying recipes that are ready now. Love to have you drop by and share a few.

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I would love to, unfortunately I don't think I will be able to make the trip. The info from BLAM is as follows (sorry to repeat this info saq):

OG: 1.090
FG: 1.013
ABV: 10.3%
SRM: 86%
IBU: 38

Now there is some discrepancy. It says 10.2% in the chart but it says 10.3% in the paragraph that follows. It says originally, in the 1930's, the OG was 1.120 and the FG finished as high has 1.029 but the beer has changed since then. For those interested they also ferment in open fermenters and are the only trappist brewery to do so today. They use Dingemans pale and pilsener malts. They use hop extract for bittering and pellets for flavor. They say the water is treated (they have terrible water) but they won't say how and they say the boil lasts at least 60 minutes but won't say how long. The 12 is created parti-gyle style with the 50% going to the 12 and 35% going to the 8. They don't say where the rest goes. They also won't talk about the sugar they use. They say they pitch at 68F and fermentation rises to at least 82F but they don't let it get above 84F. Now as far as abv goes in Belgium they are allowed a margin of error of 1% which means that each bottle may have more or less alcohol, and correspondingly a higher or lower FG. They don't sell outside Belgium (legally) so each batch may be different.

I would like to thank saq while I'm at. Your originally thread on this and the accompanying contest thread is the reason I am a member of this forum. I was doing research on a Belgian Dark Strong Ale and I found your threads. I was drawn to the traditional nature with which you tried to recreate this beer and so I joined. I do hope you sent KingBrianI his Westy12 for his efforts in your comp. I will leave you with this quote from the conditioning chamber at Westveleteren "SSSST.... HIER RIJPT DE TRAPPIST, " which means "Quiet.... Here matures the Trappist."

rjwhite41 said:

I would like to thank saq while I'm at. Your originally thread on this and the accompanying contest thread is the reason I am a member of this forum. I was doing research on a Belgian Dark Strong Ale and I found your threads. I was drawn to the traditional nature with which you tried to recreate this beer and so I joined. I do hope you sent KingBrianI his Westy12 for his efforts in your comp. I will leave you with this quote from the conditioning chamber at Westveleteren "SSSST.... HIER RIJPT DE TRAPPIST, " which means "Quiet.... Here matures the Trappist."

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I second that vote of appreciation. The recipe(s) on this thread are well worth a hoist and salute to saq and team! (Now, when will we be doing a Pannepot Reserve thread just like this one?)

Since_Uuz_Up said:

I second that vote of appreciation. The recipe(s) on this thread are well worth a hoist and salute to saq and team! (Now, when will we be doing a Pannepot Reserve thread just like this one?)

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Agreed on the praise. I love that this thread exists, and it not only is informative about Westy12 cloning but general brewing practice.

Double agreed on the Pannepot (assuming you mean the Fisherman's Ale, not the Monk's Ale). It is my wife's favorite, and unfortunately after our trip to Belgium we had a heat wave and pretty much ruined our Pannepot. I have been speaking with The Mad Fermnentationist and have gotten insight into his attempts. This may be yet again another place where your syrups come in handy. Heck, I might use the Westy recipe as a base and spice it to match the Pannepot.

Tall_Yotie said:

Agreed on the praise. I love that this thread exists, and it not only is informative about Westy12 cloning but general brewing practice.

Double agreed on the Pannepot (assuming you mean the Fisherman's Ale, not the Monk's Ale). It is my wife's favorite, and unfortunately after our trip to Belgium we had a heat wave and pretty much ruined our Pannepot. I have been speaking with The Mad Fermnentationist and have gotten insight into his attempts. This may be yet again another place where your syrups come in handy. Heck, I might use the Westy recipe as a base and spice it to match the Pannepot.

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Yes, definitely Pannepot Fisherman's Ale from De Struise. If you create a new thread for Pannepot count our entire team in. We use an older Brew-Magic that we got from a local craft brewery gone bust but it works great for test brews. Does anyone know what yeast culture(s) De Struise uses for Pannepot FA? Does the Mad Fermentalist have a recipe framework?

Candi Syrup, Inc. will provide Candi Syrup for up to 5 batches, (brewer pays shipping, (about 5 bucks), we send 3lbs syrup (D-90 or D-180) to 5 Pannepot test brewers). Sound good?

Since_Uuz_Up said:

Yes, definitely Pannepot Fisherman's Ale from De Struise. If you create a new thread for Pannepot count our entire team in. We use an older Brew-Magic that we got from a local craft brewery gone bust but it works great for test brews. Does anyone know what yeast culture(s) De Struise uses for Pannepot FA? Does the Mad Fermentalist have a recipe framework?

Candi Syrup, Inc. will provide Candi Syrup for up to 5 batches, (brewer pays shipping, (about 5 bucks), we send 3lbs syrup (D-90 or D-180) to 5 Pannepot test brewers). Sound good?

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He has the recipe he was working on, and I have additional notes from my conversations with him. I also have a couple bottles of Pannepot of 2 vintages, but due to the heat they end with a sour note. Other than that I can provide some tasting notes of the real deal and thus what we may be aiming for.

Once I have a chance to crack one open (may do that tonight for the sake of the forum), I will start a thread regarding this brew and potential project.

And yes, that sounds very good regarding the sampling to test-brewers.

I will post here later when I have my information gathered.

I did a Pannepot type beer last year that was pretty good. I used my cultured Allagash yeast which didn't really do it for me. IIRC De Struise uses T58 (dry yeast) for all beers primary, its kind of a more boring Westmalle yeast. If I were to do that beer again I'd use the Westmalle yeast.

As soon as Toll_Yottie creates a new Pannepot thread and we hash out the beginning framework for a recipe we're going to dive right in. I'm all for using Westmalle also.

Here is the thread I am starting for the Pannepot spin-off:

Pannepot clone attempt

So I recently brewed my first beer in over a year and during that time, I've taken a strong liking to Belgians. My last brewsession(s) involved brewing 12 beers over the course of six weeks. It was a lot of fun and extremely educational but at the end of it all, I had to take a break. (at the very least, I had a ton of beer to drink.)

Well the kegs are dry and I've been itching to do something so I brewed a few weeks ago and invited four friends over. (most had not brewed before.) it was great and I can't believe how much I missed doing it. It went surprisingly smooth and other than coming in a little low (68% efficiency) from the mash to the boil, we pretty much hit our marks dead on. Overall efficiency in the end was 76%

I've become a huge fan of the Rochefort 10 and have been curious about Westvleteren so I gave this recpie a try.



We came in low from the mash, so we added an extra .5lb of the amber syrup which brought our OG right on target at 1.092. The recipe calls for the WLP530 yeast but I bumped it up to 10gallons and pitched different yeast in to separate carboys just to see what I'll end up with.

I am lucky to have a temperature controlled room in my house (server room - I work from home) So adhearing to the fermentation temps was no prob. I let it rise to 80 and it sat there for 5 days before I lowered it back down to 65 (a couple of degrees each day.) I've been at 65 for about a week now and will probably let it go one more week before kegging / aging.

Here's a few pics from the great time we had.

Starters working away (I've started putting tubes vs. foil on my starters as they have a tendency to foam over.)





All set up and ready to go







Milling grains. Again, first time for these guys so I made them do everything.





Mashing in





Recirculation / temp control on the mash. 150 degrees for 90min.





We had a hard time keeping the sparge ring where it needed to be. I need to find a better way of doing this.





Lunch
Brawts simmered in a porter then BBQ'd with Garlic and Onion salt.





Cooling
I kinked one of the tubes on my glycol chiller so I had to run with ice water. Wasn't to bad. Tap water got us down to 100 pretty quick then we switched to ice water which took us the rest of the way.





In to the fermenters we go

Last but not least, pitched the decanted yeast starters.





at 12 hours in, the wyeast has started one of the most vigorous fermentation's, I've seen to date.

Fermentation video

NOTE: This video is approx 65meg in size (1:03min) and may take a bit to download depending on your internet connection. There is a lot of background noise as I ferment in a computer server room in my house. The room has dedicated A.C. and I'm able to control my fermentation temps that way.


I would also like to say thanks to Saq and everyone else involved in this recipie as it sure looks to be a great beer.

Cheers

Lucetius said:

Last but not least, pitched the decanted yeast starters.

at 12 hours in, the wyeast has started one of the most vigorous fermentation's, I've seen to date.

I would also like to say thanks to Saq and everyone else involved in this recipie as it sure looks to be a great beer.

Cheers

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Very nice pics! You should join us for the upcoming spin-off thread to brew the Pannepot OFA Quad!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/pannepot-old-fishermans-ale-clone-thread-244164/#post2902276

Brewed up SUU's recipe with a mash double decoction yesterday. I had planned for 72% efficiency and hit 81% (1.109). Decided to just go with it and pitch onto the yeast cake of the blegian blonde. Definitely won't be a clone, but should be good regardless.

I used 1.5lbs of D@ and 1.5 lbs of home-made syrup that had a much stronger fruitiness than the D2.

I have one question...I'm heading out of town next Saturday for a week and will be ramping up the temp until then to 85. If I bring it back down to 65 when I leave and then a week later find out that I'm not at the desired FG, could I ramp back up again or will that have adverse effects on the batch?

Mischief_Brewing said:

Brewed up SUU's recipe with a mash double decoction yesterday. I had planned for 72% efficiency and hit 81% (1.109). Decided to just go with it and pitch onto the yeast cake of the blegian blonde. Definitely won't be a clone, but should be good regardless.

I used 1.5lbs of D@ and 1.5 lbs of home-made syrup that had a much stronger fruitiness than the D2.

I have one question...I'm heading out of town next Saturday for a week and will be ramping up the temp until then to 85. If I bring it back down to 65 when I leave and then a week later find out that I'm not at the desired FG, could I ramp back up again or will that have adverse effects on the batch?

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I'd have to defer the heat re-heat question to saq who is the chief architect of this recipe. From our observation we've noticed that the Westmalle strain tends to slow down attenuation to a crawl after 8-10 days. Here are a few variations we've tried with good success:

• We do a sterile harvest of the blow-off krausen and re-introduce it after 7 days. We always get a healthy second krausen resulting in a gravity of 1.014 just before racking. After 7-8 weeks on the rack it always comes out 1.012. (Method credit to Jamil Z.)
  
• On the flavor side of innovation we also prime with our syrups, (for 10.5 gal we use 364g D-180 for medium carb. 5.25 gal would be 182g D-180). Plummy, toasty, figgy goodness. (Method credit to Candy Syrup, Inc's own AJ Douglass).

Last but not least. If you're using stove-top syrups make sure and adjust your wort pH to compensate for the high acidity of the syrup. A pH too acid, (below 5.0), can slow and even stall your fermentation.

Cheers,

-Mike

Update:

as I mentioned previously, I brewed a 10 gallon batch of the "New World" recipie which I split between two carboys. I pitched White Labs 530 in to one and Wyeast 1762 in to another as an experiment.

I pitched at 65 degrees then raised the temp up over approx 3 days to 82 degrees. ( I have a temperature controlled room that I can ferment in.) I held it at 82 for 5 days then over the course of 5 days, I brought it down to 65 degrees where I've been sitting for approx 2.5 weeks.

It's been a total of 27 days and I took a gravity reading of both carboys and it's much higher than I was expecting.

White Labs WLP530: 1.024
Wyeast 1762: 1.019

OG was 1.092.

I was about to transfer to Corny's and leave them in a chest freezer at 55 for a month or two but now I'm wondering if I need to re-pitch.

Any thoughts? Should I pitch a vial of each and leave it at 65 for another week? Raise the temps back up to 82 for a couple days?

How much candi sugar did you add? What was your mash temp? Did you do a mashout? How hot of a sparge?
Its probably best to go by gravity than by time for when to stop your primary fermentation.
Westmalle yeast once it crashes likes to be lazy until it goes through a lag phase (not in beer) so to get that back up and ferment you'll want to rack off the old yeast and pitch some new yeast.

10 gallon batch

3.0 lb of Dark Candi Sugar
2.0 lb of Amber Candi Sugar

both added at last 10 min of boil.

Mash was at 150 (herms recirculation to maintain temps)

sparge was 165


Question: When I re-pitch, do you think I need a full Cel count...i.e. should I make a starter or just pitch a vial? Should I raise the temps back up to 80? 70? leave it at 65?

Thanks.

You'll want to make a starter. Next time do a cooler sparge, you want to make sure this beer converts all the way until you heat up the kettle, no mashout.

When I repitch, should I be heating it back up or let it do it's thing at 65 degrees?

I'd get it warm so it gets active.

Thanks everyone who contributed to the greater knowledge with this thread / recipe. I am very grateful to have learned so much! I brewed both the new world (a few months ago) and the old world (just went into bottles last night). I'm conditioning both until fall/winter, but so far tastes great!

One interesting note, I got normal attenuation for the westmalle strain for the new world version, but got crazy high attenuation for the old world version. Went from 1.078 (really low efficiency...don't know why. probably my lack of decoction experinece) all the way down to 1.006...that's about 92% apparent attenuation. I had left this in primary for about almost 2 months, but was very surprised when I took the FG reading. Anyone have ideas why?

Can't wait to get started on the Pannepot clone! Truly one of the greatest beers!

Cheers!

I'd like to say thank you as well. I brewed this up today, finally, and everything went with out a hitch. I'm looking forward to bottling this. My only spin is that I subbed French Strisslespalt hops for the Hallertauer Hersbrucker and I'm a no chill brewer.

Question:

Brewed the old world in March. Followed the directions to a tee, went from 1.095 to 1.012 in 6 days at 82F. Conditioned for 8 weeks in a secondary. Bottled with 5g of rehydrated Nottingham and 5oz of dextrose.

The bottles have been at about 72F for 10 days. I'm dying to try it....how long does it usually take to carb up for you guys? The standard three weeks? I popped a bottle last night and got just a faint hiss.

Thanks for any insight

g-star: I bottled this up almost 3 weeks ago, has a nice hiss and some carb, but a faint head that fades quick. I figure with a big beer you need at least 3 weeks, maybe even 6 until it gets fully carbed. I did a Rocheftort8 clone that didn't have what I considered good carbonation and a good head until 6-8 weeks after bottling. This was without adding fresh yeast, however. I figure carbing would be faster with yeast that is not as stressed.

So give it a few more weeks. Besides, I figure it needs a few months in the bottles to fully condition, as most Belgian ales do. The fruit tones start coming from the back to the front, and as really interesting how the flavors develop.

Thanks for the detailed response and advice. Guess I just have to be patient and wait a few more weeks.

Cheers!

Just brewed this up Sunday in a double batch with a friend.

We were 1.8 oz short on caraaroma and he forgot to get 2 amber pouches versus and only grabbed 1. That said we have a great mash and still hit 1.092 even without the second pouch of amber candi.

Wanted to get feedback from you guys. I am a big proponent of a 3 week primary. Did anyone go this route? My thought was:
1. 83F for 5 days
2. 65F for 16 days
3. Rack to kegs and condition for 5 more weeks.

Thoughts?

One other thing - I decided that I am going to add the amber D2 to the fermenter tonight.

I have an idea.

Since we were shy 2oz on the aromatic malt, and I am adding the D2 anyway I thought I could make a global adjustment in one fell swoop. Here is the plan:

1. Specialty grain infusion (2 cups): 2oz aromatic for 30 minutes @ 150F, strain
2. Add D2 to strained 2 cups water and boil for 10 minutes. Cool to 75F and add to fermenter.

This would put my S.G. To 1.094-1.095

See any problem with this? or should I let sleeping dogs lie?

I wouldn't boil the D2, but add it once the heat has cooled.

saq said:

I wouldn't boil the D2, but add it once the heat has cooled.

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Thanks Saq - I did the mini specialty infusion for 30 mins in 2 cups of water, boiled, added the D2 and all is well. Fermenting at 83F and ripping along at that. Probably didn't need it, but it didn't inconvenience me too much.

Brewing the Traditional in about 10 days when the Patersbier is done, using (some of) the 3787 cake for this.

I thought BLAM said the FG was 1.013 (rj posted same a couple pages back) but I'm just going from memory and I may be getting it confused with Sint Bernardus Abt 12. That might explain some of the numbers discrepancy.

I hadn't read this thread and only ordered 2# D-180 but I also ordered 1# D-90 and 1# D-45. So I guess I should use the D-90 for that third pound. Should I add some Caraaroma or Special B since I don't have the full 3# of D-180? Or should I just use more of the roast malt (see below)?

I have Carafa Special II and Sinamar. Which do you think would be a better sub for the debittered black?

I can't imagine how much headspace I'll need letting it free-rise to 82* F.

Carafa II should work just fine. I would avoid adding more dark malt. It could overpower your recipe. The small addition of roasted malt is more for aging stability but should not add any significant flavor to the brew.

2- D180 and 1-D90 will work fine in this recipe. Let us know how pitching on the Westmalle cake turns out.

Cheers,

-Mike

SpanishCastleAle said:

Brewing the Traditional in about 10 days when the Patersbier is done, using (some of) the 3787 cake for this.

I thought BLAM said the FG was 1.013 (rj posted same a couple pages back) but I'm just going from memory and I may be getting it confused with Sint Bernardus Abt 12. That might explain some of the numbers discrepancy.

I hadn't read this thread and only ordered 2# D-180 but I also ordered 1# D-90 and 1# D-45. So I guess I should use the D-90 for that third pound. Should I add some Caraaroma or Special B since I don't have the full 3# of D-180? Or should I just use more of the roast malt (see below)?

I have Carafa Special II and Sinamar. Which do you think would be a better sub for the debittered black?

I can't imagine how much headspace I'll need letting it free-rise to 82* F.

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Since_Uuz_Up said:

Carafa II should work just fine. I would avoid adding more dark malt. It could overpower your recipe. The small addition of roasted malt is more for aging stability but should not add any significant flavor to the brew.

2- D180 and 1-D90 will work fine in this recipe. Let us know how pitching on the Westmalle cake turns out.

Cheers,

-Mike

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Thanks Mike.

I noticed you guys added a tiny bit of Special B to the recipe on the site (unless I missed it itt). Is that just for some added complexity?

I always go by 1/16s of a pound (i.e. ounces) and the black malt is .1#. I'm trying to figure out if it's .063# (1/16#, rounded up) or .125# (1/8#, rounded down). Based on your post I guess I'll go with 1 ounce. Per my brewing software, it seemed my color was getting dark but I've noticed these dark Belgians are misleading on the SRM number. Seems the SRM number is higher than one might first expect when looking at the beer.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Thanks Mike.

I noticed you guys added a tiny bit of Special B to the recipe on the site (unless I missed it itt). Is that just for some added complexity?

I always go by 1/16s of a pound (i.e. ounces) and the black malt is .1#. I'm trying to figure out if it's .063# (1/16#, rounded up) or .125# (1/8#, rounded down). Based on your post I guess I'll go with 1 ounce. Per my brewing software, it seemed my color was getting dark but I've noticed these dark Belgians are misleading on the SRM number. Seems the SRM number is higher than one might first expect when looking at the beer.

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Yes, that's correct. .10 lbs will equal 1.6 ounces for the black malt. The touch of special "B" (just a touch) made our 6th variation our best. It enhanced the dark fruit in the Ale just right with a subtle increase in sweet maltyness. It will go to competitions this Fall. AJ tells me that there are no more tweaks to this recipe since it is his best variation.

hey guys, I reviewed a fresh batch of Westy 12 , let me know what you think! I have yet to try out the clone because of temp control issues , but here's my review on the original: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/user/epicbeerdude#p/a/u/1/PcTCM8j1L3E[/ame]

After a long discussion with Larry at BrewersFriend.com he agreed to update his ABV calculator. He has updated the Brewers Friend calculator to follow the standard formula for ABV. Now if you enter the Westvleteren 12 OG and FG using the Standard algorithm you will get the correct ABV. Many thanks to Larry for taking the time to help out and get this in place. We hope other online calcs follow suit.

How about this for a temperature regimen?

Pitch at 65F
Allow to rise to 68F and hold for 24 hours
24-36 hours hold at 70F
36-48 hours hold at 72F
48-60 hours hold at 74F
60-72 hours hold at 76F
72-84 hours hold at 78F
84-96 hours hold at 80F
96-108 hours hold at 82F
Begin cooldown at same rate, 2F every 12 hours until 68F, hold until terminal gravity, then condition for 4-8 weeks at 50F.

I received a sample of the D180, but to my taste it reminds me more of my homemade syrup than of D2; D2 is smoother. Hopefully I can do some thorough comparisons between D2, D180, and homemade syrup in fermentation trials. I think it is quite possible to replicate the candi syrups on the stovetop.

Since_Uuz_Up, you disagreed with saq about the vigorousness of the fermentation, but earlier you said you used Westmalle yeast from a slant. Perhaps this is difference as saq uses WLP530.

You are going to want to let it free rise to 82f, which will probably happen by the end of 36ish hours and hold it there until you get to 1.015 or so and then let it drop down some until 1.012. I'd give it another week on the yeast after that and then rack it and age it.

orangehero said:

How about this for a temperature regimen?

Since_Uuz_Up, you disagreed with saq about the vigorousness of the fermentation, but earlier you said you used Westmalle yeast from a slant. Perhaps this is difference as saq uses WLP530.

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We use the Westmalle strain (WLP530 and WY3787 are both Westmalle).

Approaches have evolved over many batch variations. The variation in vigor discussion was due to our under-pitching to exact more esters/phenols from the yeast. Early on we under-pitched for this Westvleteren 12 clone but I think we're all very close now to somewhere between 1.5L and 2L stir-plate Westmalle pitches. Our last recipe (our 6th trial) is posted on our site and will go around the country to BJCP contests to represent Candi Syrup, Inc. this Fall.

Cheers,

www.candisyrup.com

saq,

Could you please describe your decoction process in more detail?