Very hard to get info from DFH Brewery!

Hey All,

I'm working up a recipe that clones or at least approximates DFH 90 Minute IPA. I have read a couple of recipes online, and took into consideration the types of hops that they say they use (on the six-pack container). So I've been calling them, trying to talk to brewers, but it's *REALLY* hard to get anyone to talk to me, or to get much information from anyone who actually gets on the phone.

The guy that I talked to this morning tried to convince me that 1 addition every 10 minutes (10 additions total including one addition at flame-out) wouldn't yield a character anywhere close to theirs. He stressed that "continuous" is really the key, and that additions every 10 or 5 minutes wouldn't work.

I was coming up with a hop schedule as follows:

1/2 oz columbus
1 oz simcoe
2 oz amarillo

This is divided up so that each ten minute addition would consist of:

.05 oz columbus
.1 oz simcoe
.2 oz amarillo

If every ten minutes isn't good enough, it'd be easy to throw half of this quantity into the boil every five minutes. Ok, it's not exactly continuous, but it's pretty darn close!

I came up with 16.5 pounds of english 2-row pale malt along with a half pound of amber malt for some color and the light roastiness that amber malt provides. In the recipes that I've seen, they suggest way too much amber malt, and the resultant color would be pretty dark. Anyway, my grain bill starts at around 1.090 and ends up in the low twenties, resulting in a 9% beer, which seems to be basically on target.

I'm also curious about yeast. Would white labs dry english ale yeast be a good choice? Would something with a good malt profile get me closer, or would a more "neutral" yeast have a better effect?

It's crazy that this place is that secretive. I've called many other major breweries, and they've been more than happy to help a fellow brewer get on the right track.

What are you trying to get from them? Are you trying to tell the brewer that you know more than he does? It sounds like you were being argumentative about their continuous hopping technique.

Furthermore, you're asking for the recipe for one of their more expensive products. I'm not surprised they're secretive about it. Most other beers have recipes posted all over the net, so the brewer's willingness is more from a damage-control point of view. They don't want someone to create a crappy product and then tell their friends that it's a clone of a beer that in reality tastes much better. If the friends hate the clone homebrew, they may hesitate on purchasing the original.

Uh, yeah, if I had the proprietary recipe to a popular product, I'd hesitate to broadcast the exact recipe too.

I didn't argue with anybody, and I didn't actually get to talk to a brewer. The guy that I talked to was just someone at the brewery who was answering the phones and confirmed that he wasn't a brewer. I just listened to him, and then posted here to share my opinions.

I just wanted to discuss my recipe and get some pointers. I was clear that I didn't want to necessarily clone to beer, but that I wanted to be pointed in the right direction.

The whole idea of the DFH 90 (and 60, and 120) is the continuous hop additions. Gimmick or not (I tend to think it may be), they aren't going to come out and say "Yeah, it's a bunch of BS, it's really no better than making additions every ten minutes!". I mean, that's really the core of their flagship products, you could argue that the continuous additions on these products is the core of the entire company. You're not going to get them to give in on that issue.

As to their overall level of secrecy, I'd say that's their call. Some breweries are more open (I'm pretty sure Dude's Pliny clone originally came from a recipe that Vinnie himself basically gave out). If so - awesome! - if not, I can respect that, too.

http://www.brew365.com/beer_dogfish_head_60_minute_ipa.php

This might help.

in my experience Sam Calagione has been a great person to talk to. I've never had him on the phone but I have spoken with him on several occasions at brew-fests and at a book signing. He was very open about recipes and techniques (which I found to be fascinating btw). Now the guy on the phone on the other hand is an employee doing a job. I don't blame him for a) not wanting to talk to you and b) not wanting to give out his bosses award winning recipe!

FWIW you can build a continuous pellet hopper for under $50 and they work pretty well. Check out back issues of BYO or give Zok a call (he is a local home brewer in CT who owns a LHBS. he makes a ton of award winning beers and built a few continuous hoppers for some people around here.

krispy d said:

FWIW you can build a continuous pellet hopper for under $50 and they work pretty well. Check out back issues of BYO or give Zok a call (he is a local home brewer in CT who owns a LHBS. he makes a ton of award winning beers and built a few continuous hoppers for some people around here.

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I always figured that they just automated it.

zoebisch01 said:

I always figured that they just automated it.

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just found the article

BYO - DIY projects
Continuous Wort Hopper (Mar.-Apr. 06)

and clone recipe:
All Grain Recipe - Dogfish Head 60 Minute IPA (clone) ::: 1.064/1.019 (5 Gal)
Grain Bill

13 lbs. - 2 Row Pale Malt
6 oz. - Thomas Fawcett Amber Malt
Hop Schedule - 60 IBU

3/4 oz. - Warrior - 60 to 35 min. continuous*
1/3 oz. - Simcoe - 35 to 35 min. continuous*
3/4 oz. - Palisade - 25 to 0 min. continuous*
1/2 oz. - Amarillo - dry hop
1/2 oz. - Simcoe - dry hop
1/2 oz. - Glacier - dry hop
Yeast

Wyeast 1187 Ringwood Ale Yeast - 1800 ml. starter
Mash/Sparge/Boil

Mash In at 152° for 60 min - sparge as usual
Boil time : 60 min.
Cool and ferment at 71° to 74°
Notes

*Continuous Hopping - Dogfish Head uses a device to slowly add a measured amount of hops over time into the boil rather then addin the whole addition at once.
This is a good brew to have a buddy handy to toss in the hops, pre-measured in their own dish, throughout the boil. It is a good technique and the commercial example of this beer is one of my very favorite IPAs.
This Recipe Appeared in the March-April 2006 edition of BYO Magazine

I don't know if you can say they are secretive at all. Sam Calagione has written at least two books that I have seen. One is about how he started and grew the business to where it is today; the other it about beer and actually has a recipe for 60 Minute IPA (I didn't see one for 90 minute, but I wasn't really looking for it). I can't think of too many other breweries that actually give out recipes on how to make their products at home.

I can't say I blame any brewer or employee of a brewery for not wanting to give out advice on how to clone their beer. I'm sure they respect what we do as many probably started as homebrewers, but they are still business men. There is no benefit to homebrewers being able to clone their recipe. You might say your little bit you brew instead of buy doesn't make a difference, but consider every homebrewer that likes DFH never buying it. It would have to have an effect on their bottom line.

That's fine, but it's only a matter of time before someone comes up with a decent clone of any brew and makes it available for anyone. The simple fact is that, as a homebrewer, I'm not going to be able to produce something exactly like any of my favorite beers. I'll still buy beer that I like.

Again, as I stated early on in this thread, I'm not trying to clone this beer. I'm just trying to get some pointers from DFH in order to get something similar.

I disagree. I think that some folks are just not knowing. In this case the man on the other end of the line probably didn't know exactly and felt uncomfortable giving his explanation. I am sure that, from my experience, any brewer, whether home brewer or commercial brewer, is willing to share the tricks of the trade - especially for the reason to tickle consumer fancy. If I tried someones home brew and loved it and they said that it was a clone of a certain beer on the market, I would buy some from the market realative quickly just to see for myself. And if it was close, I would probably buy it again. There is nothing bad about good advertisement. And when homebrewers mimick commercial homebrews, and it comes out great, there is no better advertisement than that. So IMHO, there is no reason to not share ingredients. How many times have you made a clone of your beer and it come out the same as the cloned? Remember no two beers are alike.

- WW

- WW

I made a 60 minute clone, so can't help you with the recipe for the 90. But, FWIW, I did my "continuous hopping" in my own way. I added the bittering hops (warrior) at 60 until 35 minutes- added a little at first, then like a pellet or two every few seconds. Then the other hops (simcoe and amarillo gold, not palisade) were mixed together and added a pellet or two continuously from 35 minutes until flame out. Then, dryhopping in the secondary with simcoe and amarillo. I used pacman yeast since I had that ready to go- but it did finish drier than I anticipated because of it- it finished at 1.010 and I mashed a little higher hoping for less fermentables. Regardless, it came out great and is definitely my favorite that I've made so far.

Sounds good! I've heard of using the more bitter hops continuously in the earlier part of the boil, then continue with the flavor/aroma hops continuously from the 35 minute point onward, and I've also heard of mixing all of the hops together and dividing them out into small doses throughout the boil and hopping small doses continuously.

I based my recipe on the same recipe that is posted here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14154
but I've had recipes where a seemingly small percentage of thomas fawcett amber malt has had a "heavier" effect than I had anticipated.

I don't have to make a 100% clone of this beer, so I have some ideas about changing it. I was thinking of going with pale malt instead of pilsner malt, and I've read DFH interviews where they state that they now use pale and amber instead of pilsner and amber malt. This way, I could do without the protein rest. I'm also thinking of going with WLP005 instead of Wyeast Whitbread yeast. Also, we don't have Warrior pellet hops in my local hombrew store, so I had to go with columbus hop pellets instead, but I've adjusted the quantities to make up for a slightly lower alpha percentage.

I used two row for the base malt, and used maris otter for the thomas fawcett. Mostly just because I couldn't find the amber malt, and I love maris otter malt and had some laying around.

Sounds like you're making a really good beer, clone or not!

Yeah! Maris Otter is my favorite. I was thinking of using that as my base malt with a bit of amber malt for color and flavor and such. I might just use English 2-row as the base.

wilsonwj said:

And when homebrewers mimick commercial homebrews, and it comes out great, there is no better advertisement than that. So IMHO, there is no reason to not share ingredients. How many times have you made a clone of your beer and it come out the same as the cloned? Remember no two beers are alike.

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I think this works both ways. What if my clone comes out bad? Will it turn off a potential customer? Personally, if I had an award winning recipe that I could brew and sell I'd be reluctant to share. I would certainly be willing to provide pointers and help out a fellow brewer, but I'd keep the recipe secret.

I dunno... I'd never call a brewery and expect them to give me a lot of information while trying to clone one of their drinks.

That said, many of these guys who brew the beers we love started just as we are, and they remember that. Someone posted a clone recipe earlier in this thread, and I'd say that's a pretty good start.

I also like the notion of doing my own thing. When I wanted to make my first IIPA, I looked at various recipes here, and on other sites, and then used Beersmith to concoct my own recipe.

And from the taste I had when I bottled it on Sunday, it's going to be a good beer.

Just remember, those guys are making money off their products, and we in turn should support them. But there's also nothing wrong with trying to make our own brews that we think are better

Venture forth and create!

DFH uses a device they call the Zopinator to do their continuous hop additions. The original device was an old 1970's electric, tabletop football game that was modified to do the job. As far as learning more about their recipes, I would highly recommend Extreme Brewing by Sam Calagione. There are many great recipies including DFH originals from the DFH brewers themselves. I don't believe the 90 IPA recipe is there; but I know for a fact the 60 is there.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1592532934/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

ErbiumYAG said:

I would highly recommend Extreme Brewing by Sam Calagione. There are many great recipies including DFH originals from the DFH brewers themselves. I don't believe the 90 IPA recipe is there; but I know for a fact the 60 is there. http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Brewing-Enthusiasts-Guide-Craft/dp/1592532934

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I'm not saying that this wouldn't be a great book to have in my brewing library, but this book is based on brewing with extracts, rather than with grain, so I'm not sure how applicable it would be. Plus, the reviews are very, very mixed. I'm sure it's worth checking out, though.

Steve973 said:

I'm not saying that this wouldn't be a great book to have in my brewing library, but this book is based on brewing with extracts, rather than with grain, so I'm not sure how applicable it would be. Plus, the reviews are very, very mixed. I'm sure it's worth checking out, though.

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Any extract recipe can be converted to all grain and vice versa.