Looking for help modifying a recipe

I am hoping to get responses from some people experienced with recipe development here.

So I brewed this beer thinking Irish Red. I did a 3 gal batch using an almost full boil with a late extract addition (steeped specialty grains at 150 F for 30 min), and it came out real pale and less malty than I wanted but otherwise great. Here is the recipe...

0.60 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)
0.40 lb Home-Toasted 2-row (3.0 SRM)
60 min 1.00 lb Amber Dry Extract (12.5 SRM)
60 min 0.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min)
15 min 2.00 lb Amber Dry Extract (12.5 SRM)
2 min 0.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (2 min)

My first thoughts were to up the crystal malt to 3/4 lb of 60L, and switch out the home-toasted 2-row for 1/4 lb of victory. I was also going to toss in 1/4 lb malto-dextrine and potentially add some more fuggles in there for flavor (I like fuggles ). I don't really care if it still fits the Irish Red description or what, I will call it real ale if necessary.

My question: do you think this would this be over-kill on the malty-ness? Any other suggestions for making the changes I am looking for?

So this is what I came up with when I threw your original recipe in Beer Smith:

OG:1.045
Color: 12 SRM
IBUs: 25.3 (I used 4.5%AA for your fuggles)

These all fall within the Irish Red parameters. By changing the grains that you suggested, there wouldn't be much of change as far as maltiness goes. If you were to add more Fuggles, it would be even more hoppy than malty.

What kind of yeast are you using? That goes a long way in determining in how malty your end product is. Also shortening the time you have fuggles in (maybe from 60min to 30min) will reduce the bitterness and allow the maltiness to come out more.

PS: Why did you add the DME in two separate increments?

The DME is added in 2 incriments to avoid caramelization in the boil pot and increase hop utilization (there is a button in beersmith when you add extract that says "late extract boil for 15 min," clicking this will show you the modified hop utilization values. I do a 2.75 gal boil. I think your IBU came out high, my beersmith gives me 17.5 IBU (maybe you didn't change the second hop addition to 2 min?). I used cooper's yeast, and I was thinking that I would get some more body from the malto-dextrine so my question as to the specialty grains was maybe more about their specific flavors than how much gravity they'll add - specifically, will adding that much victory malt to a 3 gal brew be overkill?

Adding a proportion of Victory will give you a nice malty, biscuity flavor and a deeper color than could be imparted by Crystal alone. I'd only change one thing at a time; that's why they call it "tweaking" instead of "wholesale change". Brew it again and add the Victory. Leave the rest of it alone.

ProMash is telling me all manner of different things. I'm getting 21 IBU without configuring for late addition and a 1.052 OG for 14 SRM (including Victory). Weird.

Bob

Thanks for the advice, Bob. By the way your website is nice. I sympathize with your rants on stupid naming and using a hydrometer.

Does anyone know if I can use the Victory malt steeped, or should it be mashed?

Thanks for the help!

According to Palmer's How to Brew, Victory malt needs to be mashed.

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Mechanics of Steeping

Dunno about that. I've steeped it before and received the benefits I was seeking. As I recall, steeping will provide flavor and color contribution, but it must be mashed in order for it to impact gravity.

Bob

I have also used it steeped before, but with lots of other things so I don't know if the benefits I experienced were from the steeping or from the victory malt. I think I will try it.

So now I will Hijack my own thread:

Once again, I think a centralized thread or sticky on the differences between and respective benefits of steeping and partial mashing would be helpful for lots of folks on the steeping/mashing question. I think people starting to push the extract envelope and thinking about grain brewing would benefit from knowing what they are actually doing, how close or far they might be from partial mashing (i.e. how easy it is), and what benefits they can expect from partial mashing. It would be appropriate to include either pasted text or links explaining which grains require mashing, as well as links to articles or threads describing a couple examples of steeping procedures as well as a few examples of partial mashing procedures (different procedures will work better for different people). Is it just me or do these questions come up almost daily?