I just don't get why folks resist it so much...it's either laziness, or ignorance of how simple it is.
One word, pride! Keeping people from learning something new since the beginning of time!
I just don't get why folks resist it so much...it's either laziness, or ignorance of how simple it is.
Yeah, thats just the point. Its not that simple. I think thats where Bob was going with this. Best case, your over simplified six step plan will get you from 100 billion cells to 112 billion. It might proof your yeast, but doesnt exactly set the bar very high since your average homebrew recipe needs over 200. I could be wrong, but I think hes saying that you should treat pitching rates the same way you treat other ingredients. With a degree of accuracy. Going through the motions of making a starter without regard to pitch rate might make you feel like youre doing something useful but its no guarantee that youre going to get better beer.I just don't get why folks resist it so much...it's either laziness, or ignorance of how simple it is.
Yeah, that’s just the point. It’s not that simple. I think that’s where Bob was going with this. Best case, your over simplified six step plan will get you from 100 billion cells to 112 billion.
Thank-you for confirming that making a starter is not as simple as the original description you posted.Then you start it a week early and feed it every day or so with fresh wort, til you get your cell count....
Never said it was. I just suggested that it might be part of the "best practice" that Bob was refering to.And you don't necessarily need a stirplate,
Thank-you for confirming that making a starter is not as simple as the original description you posted.
Then you start it a week early and feed it every day or so with fresh wort, til you get your cell count...It's still not hard to do.
And you don't necessarily need a stirplate, they're nice, but in reality people have been making and building up starters for decades without them. I have a labgrade one from work, but half the time I'm brewing at my GF's and make my starters there, without it.
Having one is great but it should dissuade someone from NOT making a starter.
Wait a minute, did I miss something? The last time I made a starter, I pretty much followed a 6 step process just like the one Revvy posted, and it worked fine.
When did making a starter become complicated?
If your already brewing your own beer, making a starter should be a no-brainer.
You're no different than the many posters here who pitch a single pack of liquid yeast into 5 gallons of 1.060 wort and say, it worked fine. Making a starter is not whats important. Pitch rate is. Using the accepted pitch rate of one million cells, the best you could expect to achieve from that method is a rate recommended for a 1.024 beer.
Im not in complete agreement with all these numbers, but thats what you get using the formulas that Mr Malty is based on. Its the one the Revvy uses when he says a single liquid yeast pack is only good for a 1.020 wort.
My point is that there is science and math behind understanding yeast and pitch rates. Theres even more science behind making a starter and knowing that the end result is what you were expecting. Its not as simple as the outdated graphic that Revvy posted. Just blindly making a starter and tossing it in your beer is not what's going to make your beer better. Adjusting you technique after understanding why you're doing what you're doing will.
You may even come to the conclusion that I have. That making a starter is not what makes great beer.
Who said there was? I said that making a starter isn't one of them.Come on, man. There is literally not a singular thing that "makes great beer".
Who said there was? I said that making a starter isn't one of them.
No one flips there lid (as you say) when someone correct another posters fermentation temperature is because it's one of the most important parts of making a great beer. The act of making a starter isn't.
Not a bet that I'd take. People will swear to a lot of stuff.I would be willing to bet you a trillion dollars that we can find a number of people who would swear that they make "great" beer without controlling their fermentation temp.
Thank-you for confirming that making a starter is not as simple as the original description you posted.
It's a lot easier than continued feeding. A smack pack might not have enough yeast for 5 gal. of wort, but it's got more than enough for 2-3 qt. I make one step, 2 or 3 qt. starters in a gal. glass jug. Without stir plate, I start them a week ahead, let them ferment out, refrigerate and decant. With a stir plate, I start about 5 days ahead. Dead easy.
Heck, I just heard a guy say that he could make a starter in 15 minutes.
You're no different than the many posters here who pitch a single pack of liquid yeast into 5 gallons of 1.060 wort and say, it worked fine. Making a starter is not whats important. Pitch rate is. Using the accepted pitch rate of one million cells, the best you could expect to achieve from that method is a rate recommended for a 1.024 beer.
Im not in complete agreement with all these numbers, but thats what you get using the formulas that Mr Malty is based on. Its the one the Revvy uses when he says a single liquid yeast pack is only good for a 1.020 wort.
My point is that there is science and math behind understanding yeast and pitch rates. Theres even more science behind making a starter and knowing that the end result is what you were expecting. Its not as simple as the outdated graphic that Revvy posted. Just blindly making a starter and tossing it in your wort is not what's going to make your beer better. Adjusting your technique after understanding why you're doing what you're doing will.
You may even come to the conclusion that I have. That making a starter is not what makes great beer.
My point is that there is science and math behind understanding yeast and pitch rates. Theres even more science behind making a starter and knowing that the end result is what you were expecting. Its not as simple as the outdated graphic that Revvy posted. Just blindly making a starter and tossing it in your wort is not what's going to make your beer better. Adjusting your technique after understanding why you're doing what you're doing will.
Heck, I just heard a guy say that he could make a starter in 15 minutes.
Wait a minute, did I miss something? The last time I made a starter, I pretty much followed a 6 step process just like the one Revvy posted, and it worked fine.
Sorry, I didnt realize that you were making a 1.024 batch. Nice session beer Ill bet. Now that you think of me as your buddy, we should get together and sample a few.Trust me bud, I understand the math behind starters. this application didn't write itself.
Sorry, I didnt realize that you were making a 1.024 batch. Nice session beer Ill bet. Now that you think of me as your buddy, we should get together and sample a few.
NordeastBrewer77 said:are you serious? have you ever made a starter? is does only take about 15 mins. stepping it up takes another 15. anyway you cut it, making starters is one of the simpler parts of the brewing process. i've been following this thread since i first posted, but didn't feel the need to chime in and repost until now. do you actually have a point you're trying to make or are you just arguing against one of the more common brewing practices for arguments sake?
Don't know where this 1.024 thing is coming from, perhaps you've forgotten to take your meds today?
1,000,000 (pitch rate) X 20,000 (milliliters or wort) X 6 Plato (~1.024 sg) = 112,000,000 (cells)
Experiment at White Labs show that a half liter starter made with 100 billion cells in a method similiar to what is prescribed by Revvy will yield 112 billion cells
1,000,000 (pitch rate) X 20,000 (milliliters or wort) X 6 Plato (~1.024 sg) = 112,000,000 (cells)
Umm thats 30 minutes. And thats assuming that you can get water to a boil, boil for 10 minutes and then get it chilled to 70 degrees, not to mention set up and clean up, all in 15 minutes. Be honest. On a good day, your looking at a half hour.are you serious? have you ever made a starter? is does only take about 15 mins. stepping it up takes another 15.
how bout a 1.75L starter with a gravity of 1.04? how many cells will that produce? a half litre starter is hardly what people talk about when making a starter to ensure proper pitch rates. i really think you just wanna argue this for little or no reason. a 500 ml starter (og 1.024) would grow virtually no new cells, but a 1.5L starter at 1.04, which is more on par with what people pitch into beer, will grow cells. even just doubling the cell count of a smack pack (~70 billion cells) to ~140 or so billion cells is significant growth. now take a stir plated or regularly shaken starter of 1.5 or 1.75L at 1.040 and you'll end up with a much more appropriate cell count for avg gravity beers. quit saying that making a starter isn't important because very little growth happens in a 500ml of 1.024 starter.
Your going to have to break out the crayons and draw me a picture.
I can't see anywhere in Revvy's post, where he says to make a 1/2 liter starter.
And only an idiot would assume that the jug in the photos was a 1/2 liter jug, because obviously none of the items in that photo are to scale.
Most people don't rely on crayons and pictures and know that 2 cups of water is pretty close to a half liter.:cross:Your going to have to break out the crayons and draw me a picture.
And only an idiot would assume that the jug in the photos was a 1/2 liter jug, because obviously none of the items in that photo are to scale.
The procedure outlined in the photos is what I was referring to as being a simple process.
\\Boil a pint (1/2 quart) of water and stir in 1/2 cup of DME. This will produce a starter of about 1.040 OG. Boil this for 10 minutes, adding a little bit of hops if you want to. Put the lid on the pan for the last couple minutes, turn off the stove and let it sit while you prepare for the next step. Adding a quarter teaspoon of yeast nutrient (vitamins, biotin, and dead yeast cells) to the starter wort is always advisable to ensure good growth. It is available from your brewshop.
Yeah, that’s just the point. It’s not that simple. I think that’s where Bob was going with this. Best case, a 1/2 liter starter will get you from 100 billion cells to 112 billion. It might proof your yeast, but doesn’t exactly set the bar very high since your average homebrew recipe needs over 200. I could be wrong, but I think he’s saying that you should treat pitching rates the same way you treat other ingredients. With a degree of accuracy. Going through the motions of making a starter without regard to pitch rate might make you feel like you’re doing something useful but it’s no guarantee that you’re going to get better beer.
I’m thinking that Bob’s “best practice” would be to buy or build a stir plate and learn the importance nutrients and oxygen play in making a starter. Until then you have a better shot of getting the proper cell count by direct pitching enough liquid yeast or using dry yeast. It's not being ignorant or lazy. It's using the resources you have available to you at the time to make the best beer possible.
Making a starter is a simple process. Do you agree or not?
Nice attempt at a back pedal. You posted something stupid and when I call you on it you think that calling me an idiot and a troll will fix it.
I'm not the one quibbling over how long it takes water to boil. I'm not the one claiming I could make a starter in 15 minutes. That all you.
Yes, but it takes longer than 15 minutes to mix, boil, chill, and pitch. And you really need more than 2 cups of water.
Are you really doing this too?
Yes, but it takes longer than 15 minutes to mix, boil, chill, and pitch. And you really need more than 2 cups of water.
Agreed! Funny how such a small detail could cause so much trouble.^Fixed that for you. That probably would have prevented this massive communication breakdown between us.
Making a starter is a simple process. Do you agree or not?
Guys, guys! I've discovered the ultimate in time saving! Quitting homebrewing and buying it at the store! I is genius...
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