Balancing a Keg System Boot Camp

Hey Everyone, this is my first thread post on HBT ever! I am starting it in hopes of helping other amateur brewers, like myself, to get the most out of their home kegging systems. I am going to create a format that others can follow, so that those out there much more experienced with kegging systems can share some remedies.

Dilemma:
Beer is under carbonated a.k.a. flat
Kegging System:
Converted G.E. Mini Fridge
2 long shank with faucets (mounted on door)
Johnson Control A419 Thermostat (set at 40.F)
2 5 Gal. Corny Kegs
10 lb. CO2 Tank set at 12psi (mounted outside of fridge)
Dual outlet air distributor with check valves (mounted inside fridge)
4'4'' of 3/16 ID Beverage Tubing
Measure Taken
Of these variable, I have read the most important are temperature, length/diameter of hose, and PSI. I used Crockett Brewing Keg Systems (http://www.iancrockett.com/brewing/info/kegbalance.shtml) to determine what would work best.
To maintain 12 PSI, the site suggested that I would need roughly 4'4'' of 3/16 tubing (2.7 resistance). Due to mounting my taps on the door of the fridge, I have a clearance of about 1 inch from the tap to the center of the keg (the end of the shank may go directly above the keg once the door is closed. This causes me to let the hose either hang down / soft loop once of curl around the top of the corny [potential problem?]
After sitting at a week at 12 psi (set and forget), the beer has no real head, but there are some bubbles climbing up the side of the glass, which leads me to believe I am on the right track. The bubbles on top, I have heard in other forums as "soapy" in nature. Overall, the beer just does not taste carbonated. I have checked and observed no leaks from the CO2. There is also a decent flow rate which is also what is making this a pain to figure out.
At this point, I am deducing that I may need more pressure and turned my regulator to 15 PSI. I feel this is a pre-mature move, but due to lack of experience and not really finding any systems similar to my own in problem solving forums, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Also, I lowered my thermostat to 38.F. I read colder beer has an easier time absorbing CO2.
Goal
I want my beer to have around a .5''- 1'' of head that does not dissipate quickly / release all the carbonation. Approximately 2.5 - 2.7 volumes of CO2 if I could be a stickler. If anymore information or pictures are needed, please let me know and I can share. (Obviously with the length of this post, I tried to be as thorough as possible). Any tips from the pros are greatly appreciated.

Thanks and Prost!

- Clint

Leave your fridge at 38*, and turn the pressure down to 13psi. This will give you 2.66 volumes of pressure. Patience is the key. Sometimes it'll take 7-10 days and the more you fiddle with it, the most off-track it gets. At 40 degrees, I'm not suprised it wasn't carbonated. It should take about 15 days at that pressure.

And no matter what anyone tells you...NEVER ever ever ever ever force carbonate by cranking it to 20-30psi for 24-48 hours and then back down. This is a horrible method and 90% of the time leads to overcarbonated beer.

Nevermind, I read your post incorrectly.

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

Leave your fridge at 38*, and turn the pressure down to 13psi. This will give you 2.66 volumes of pressure. Patience is the key. Sometimes it'll take 7-10 days and the more you fiddle with it, the most off-track it gets. At 40 degrees, I'm not suprised it wasn't carbonated. It should take about 15 days at that pressure.

And no matter what anyone tells you...NEVER ever ever ever ever force carbonate by cranking it to 20-30psi for 24-48 hours and then back down. This is a horrible method and 90% of the time leads to overcarbonated beer.

Click to expand...

Bah, 99% of the time it works every time . Never shake though, down that road lies disaster....and of course now that you've done a week of set/forget, you don't want to try and burst carb with 30 PSI/48 hrs since you don't know how much carbonation is in there.

OP, do what he says, go back to 13 PSI and wait another week. 1 week is far too short for set/forget.

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

And no matter what anyone tells you...NEVER ever ever ever ever force carbonate by cranking it to 20-30psi for 24-48 hours and then back down. This is a horrible method and 90% of the time leads to overcarbonated beer.

Click to expand...

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

I always put in a warm keg to my keezer and put it up to just under 60 PSI and leave 24 hours, then back down to 10-13 PSI for 3-4 days and everything is perfect.

I know a guy who takes a cold keg, puts it up to 16 PSI and shakes it until no gas goes in. Puts in back in the refridge and gives it a 24 hour rest. Says it is perfcect - I have had his beer and the carb is like a labatts, high carb but what he is looking for, not over carbed. I am not a fan of the shaking method though personally.

It is a preference on how you want to do it... just sayin'

It's impossible to overcarb if you have your reg set at carb pressure, no matter how much you shake it. So the only time shaking is foolproof is when you are set at your desired carb pressure, (16 for this guy, apparently), at which point you can shake the living crap out of it and all you are doing is accelerating gas absorption UP TO your desired carb level.

So yeah, that would work too

shortyjacobs said:

It's impossible to overcarb if you have your reg set at carb pressure, no matter how much you shake it. So the only time shaking is foolproof is when you are set at your desired carb pressure, (16 for this guy, apparently), at which point you can shake the living crap out of it and all you are doing is accelerating gas absorption UP TO your desired carb level.

So yeah, that would work too

Click to expand...

Exactly. Nothing wrong with shaking, or going high pressure etc, once you get a reliable system down. I know he said waiting at least 8 hours is important after the shake method, for it to stabilize. Maybe the OP has not given a shake or high pressure carb 8-24 hours to "rest".

Ceejster said:

After sitting at a week at 12 psi (set and forget), the beer has no real head, but there are some bubbles climbing up the side of the glass, which leads me to believe I am on the right track. The bubbles on top, I have heard in other forums as "soapy" in nature. Overall, the beer just does not taste carbonated. I have checked and observed no leaks from the CO2. There is also a decent flow rate which is also what is making this a pain to figure out.
I want my beer to have around a .5''- 1'' of head that does not dissipate quickly / release all the carbonation. Approximately 2.5 - 2.7 volumes of CO2 if I could be a stickler. If anymore information or pictures are needed, please let me know and I can share. (Obviously with the length of this post, I tried to be as thorough as possible). Any tips from the pros are greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

When using the set and forget method it takes about 2 weeks to fully carb, especially if you're going for a higher level of carbonation. It will have bubbles in about a week, and be drinkably carbed by ~10 days, but full carbonation takes time. If you're in a rush there are ways to "burst carb" as described above, and while I'm personally not a fan of burst carbing it works well for some people. The amount of head is mostly dependent on the balance of your system, the glassware, and the pour technique, but you can really only guess at the balancing without carbonated beer to test it out with. IMHO you need to let the beer fully carbonate, and then balance your system to get the type of pour you're looking for. And if you're having head retention issues you need to look at your recipe or your glassware cleaning methods, not at the system balancing.

Hey Everyone,

Thank you all for the information. Another reason for me developing this thread was to continue processing all the different methods of carbonating / kegging that are discussed on HBT. It has become the "great debate" of "To shake or not to shake", "To dial up the pressure, or not".

What I have taken from it all is that all methods work. The one advantage to "set and forget" is you have a higher probability of hitting your desired volumes of CO2 on the head, the only pain is it takes awhile. Shaking and dialing up pressure is quicker and once you have experimented with the amount of time to shake / pressure to use you have great results.

Moving Forward
In my personal case, I am going to take "Suthrncomfrt1884" advice and set the pressure at 13 PSI and give it another 7-10 days. A second for taking this remedy goes to "shortyjacobs" for pointing out how I am already at this stage. Hopefully when I re-post, I will have great news for the thread.
Response to JuanMoore
My Recipe was as follows:
Irish Red Ale (Fire Fight)
7lbs Maris Otter
2lbs Vienna (US)
.37 lbs. Roasted Barley
.18 Lbs Crystal (120 L)
1 oz. Fuggles 60 min.
1 oz. Kent Golding 15 min.
.25 Cascade 0 min. (.75 remaining dry hopped for 7 days in secondary)
Mashed at 154* for 75 min (the temp. held so I held; A+ Iodine test)
OG: 1.050 - FG: 1.012
I also used some Polyclar as a fining agent / cold crashed for 3 days

As for glassware, not a factor. I have very nice glasses (father is an "American Picker" and always gives me cool traditional beer equipment. I clean it properly and have over the course of years of drinking, I've learned and developed the art of the pour.

One thing that I can have better during my brew process is to get a better rolling boil for my all grain batches. I am on an electric stove, which just scratches the surface of a boil for approx. 7 gallons. I just made a reflectex jacket for my pot, so hopefully that will address some of the heat loss.

Well, I have done it again. 2 for 2 with the long posts. Let me know if any of the information I have shared is off and impacting my kegging. Since everyone has been so helpful, I can only imagine future threads being created on the brewing process itself! Let me know if there is anymore information that would help move forward.

Thanks and Prost!

- Clint

Hey Everyone,

Great news! My Irish Red is carbonated and has a very respectable head retention. Thank you everyone for sharing your advice. It looks like two weeks in the keg at set and forget was the ticket for me.

For other fresh to kegging brewers out there, please share your kegging systems / dilemmas and hopefully this thread can help you move forward.

I have learned that set and forget tends to yield more accurate carbonation when you are paying attention to style; however, you need to allow for at least 10 - 14 days before enjoying your first pint. Also, that force carbonating is great too. It is much faster (5 - 7 days). It's one con is that you run the risk of over-carbonation.

Experiment and see what works best for you! Cheers!

- Clint

Glad it worked out for you. However,... how do you know:

Ceejster said:

Hey Everyone,

I have learned that set and forget tends to yield more accurate carbonation when you are paying attention to style; however, you need to allow for at least 10 - 14 days before enjoying your first pint. Also, that force carbonating is great too. It is much faster (5 - 7 days). It's one con is that you run the risk of over-carbonation.

Click to expand...

if you have only tried one method?

I started out with set and forget (which works), then learned I could make 10-14 days turn into 4-7 with the boost method (which also works). The results are the same, just quicker.

Just sayin'... you can't claim victor until you have tried both sides

+1 boosting

The set and forget method has the benefit of giving the beer time to condition if it has not been previously aged long enough, depending on the beer. I like to get the process started by 24 hour burst of 30 psi - never over-carbed doing it this way!

Ceejster said:

Also, that force carbonating is great too. It is much faster (5 - 7 days). It's one con is that you run the risk of over-carbonation.

Click to expand...

Glad everything worked out for you. Just to clarify the terminology, any time external CO2 is pushed into a beer to carbonate it, it's known as "force carbonating". The set and forget is the slower method of force carbonation, and increasing the pressure and/or shaking is usually referred to as "burst carbing". I've used burst carbing methods when I was in a rush with decent results, but I feel that most of my beers benefit from the cold conditioning that accompanies using the set and forget method. I've burst carbed to the desired CO2 level in only a few days, but it resulted in a slight carbonic acid bite that took about a week to age out. There's no real right or wrong way to do it, so just use what works best for you and the beers that you brew.

Personally, I prefer to keg hit it with 20-30 psi to set the seal check for leaks, then drop to 15 psi for the week and it's good to go. THIS ONLY WORKS WELL IF YOU ALSO COLD CRASH.....my.02

I just went to a local brewery and shared some of the information of this forum with the brewers there. Everything said here was on the money such as "boosting" and shaking the keg until the "gurgling" stops.

One other method that the guys of the brewery shared was to connect the gas line to the beer out connection on the keg. He shared that by doing that, you are forcing the gas to move through the liquid, which would also cause faster absorption. Has anyone used this method before? If so, can you share its pros and cons?

- Clint

Ceejster said:

I just went to a local brewery and shared some of the information of this forum with the brewers there. Everything said here was on the money such as "boosting" and shaking the keg until the "gurgling" stops.

One other method that the guys of the brewery shared was to connect the gas line to the beer out connection on the keg. He shared that by doing that, you are forcing the gas to move through the liquid, which would also cause faster absorption. Has anyone used this method before? If so, can you share its pros and cons?

- Clint

Click to expand...

only time I used that method was when I over carbed my hefe I had my beer pouring 4/5 glass of foam to pouring perfect in 30 minutes.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/overcarbed-keg-heres-instant-solution-127655/

-=Jason=-

Ceejster said:

One other method that the guys of the brewery shared was to connect the gas line to the beer out connection on the keg. He shared that by doing that, you are forcing the gas to move through the liquid, which would also cause faster absorption. Has anyone used this method before? If so, can you share its pros and cons?

- Clint

Click to expand...

Lots of people use that method thinking that it helps carb faster. Breweries do this in brite/serving tanks using a diffuser stone that separates the CO2 into millions of tiny bubbles, and it works very effectively this way. Pushing gas through the liquid out on a corny keg or sankey keg isn't going to help or speed the process appreciably since the bubbles are so big and they rise to the top almost instantly. Unless you put a diffuser on the end of your diptube, pushing gas through it it isn't going to do anything special for you. As the link flomaster posted above suggests, it might actually knock more CO2 out of solution than it puts into solution.

Try the calculator

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f84/beer-line-length-pressure-calculator-35369/
kudos to the creator Bearcat Brewmeister

CidahMastah said:

Glad it worked out for you. However,... how do you know:



if you have only tried one method?

I started out with set and forget (which works), then learned I could make 10-14 days turn into 4-7 with the boost method (which also works). The results are the same, just quicker.

Just sayin'... you can't claim victor until you have tried both sides

Click to expand...

Hey CidahMastah,

I have tried to "boost" a pale ale I brewed right after completing my kegerator project. I set the regulator to 30psi, left it for 24 hours and then dropped it to 20psi for 24 hours, and finally setting it to serving pressure for the remainder of the week.

At the time, I did not have my system balanced. I was using 5' of 1/4 tubing. At 10psi, it was foam-a-poluzza. I had to dial down my regulator to 4 psi in order to pull a decent glass. Of course with pressure that low, my head retention was nothing, as well as it would have less and less carbonation with each glass I poured. It was that experience which led me to create this thread.

I would like to give boosting another shot now that I have my system balanced, which leads to a new question.

If I already have a beer on tap at 13psi and currently being enjoyed, if I would like to "boost" another keg off of the same CO2 source (dual valve connection inside kegerator) what should I do?

I am guessing I can close off the valve to the current brew and open the valve to the new batch and dial to 30psi, but I am not sure... this would be a first attempt.

One of the reasons preventing me from going with my gut instinct is that it took a lot of work to get my current brew carbed properly, I don't want to mess it up now. I'm looking to hear back from you guys

- Clint

hey clint - I assume that you mean you have have two hoses, running off a single body regulator (i.e. you can't carb at two different pressures at the same time). I would do just what you are saying. Leave everything as is in the keezer hooked up. Turn off the gas to the 13PSI keg (I assume you have a manifold with a shut off for each line? just shut that off). Then you can give your other brew a boost for 24 hours or whatever you are planning, then switch it back to 13PSI and let it stabilize.

I have teh dual body regulator, with two lines that goes to a 2 manifold and a 3 manifold. It is nice because I can boost on one line (up to 3 kegs); and serve on the other. Also I serve my draft ciders at a higher PSI than my IPAs or others.

It won't hurt your 13psi keg to be off the gas for the day.

CidahMastah said:

hey clint - I assume that you mean you have have two hoses, running off a single body regulator (i.e. you can't carb at two different pressures at the same time). I would do just what you are saying. Leave everything as is in the keezer hooked up. Turn off the gas to the 13PSI keg (I assume you have a manifold with a shut off for each line? just shut that off). Then you can give your other brew a boost for 24 hours or whatever you are planning, then switch it back to 13PSI and let it stabilize.

I have teh dual body regulator, with two lines that goes to a 2 manifold and a 3 manifold. It is nice because I can boost on one line (up to 3 kegs); and serve on the other. Also I serve my draft ciders at a higher PSI than my IPAs or others.

It won't hurt your 13psi keg to be off the gas for the day.

Click to expand...

Hey CidahMastah. In my set up I have the CO2 tank outside of my kegerator. The main hose is fed into the fridge through an air tight hole. It connects to a 2 Outlet Air Distributor With Check Valves, which is mounted on the ceiling on my kegerator (each valve can be individually opened or closed, but no additional gauges to regulate). I got it off of cornykeg.com. I will close off the valve currently feeding my tapped brew and will then set my pressure to 30psi for 24 hours on the new brew. Following that I will just drop my pressure back down to 13psi and stick the rest of the time out.

For the future, I would love to convert a freezer and purchase a 3 or 4 gauge regulator so that each brew carbed to style. In my current state, I am a working on a college campus in housing. Space is tight and if it wasn't for a student leaving his mini-fridge behind, I would not have a kegerator

- Clint

Ceejster said:

Hey CidahMastah. In my set up I have the CO2 tank outside of my kegerator. The main hose is fed into the fridge through an air tight hole. It connects to a 2 Outlet Air Distributor With Check Valves, which is mounted on the ceiling on my kegerator (each valve can be individually opened or closed, but no additional gauges to regulate). I got it off of cornykeg.com. I will close off the valve currently feeding my tapped brew and will then set my pressure to 30psi for 24 hours on the new brew. Following that I will just drop my pressure back down to 13psi and stick the rest of the time out.

For the future, I would love to convert a freezer and purchase a 3 or 4 gauge regulator so that each brew carbed to style. In my current state, I am a working on a college campus in housing. Space is tight and if it wasn't for a student leaving his mini-fridge behind, I would not have a kegerator

- Clint

Click to expand...

nice I hear that! I would love to have my set up even grander... but a wife does the same thing that college does, restricts your money

My gas is on the outside as well, my keezer barely keeps 4 cornies. but the stainless dual tower taps on my bar (fed from the basement keezer), are priceless!

The keezer builds are really the way to go. I sort of wish that i went bigger on mine, but the "left over" freezer was up for grabs, and I ran with it.

You are way ahead of me though. In college I was just making brew in a bag beers and ciders from local orchards. A kegging system just wasn't in the cards.

CidahMastah said:

nice I hear that! I would love to have my set up even grander... but a wife does the same thing that college does, restricts your money

My gas is on the outside as well, my keezer barely keeps 4 cornies. but the stainless dual tower taps on my bar (fed from the basement keezer), are priceless!

The keezer builds are really the way to go. I sort of wish that i went bigger on mine, but the "left over" freezer was up for grabs, and I ran with it.

You are way ahead of me though. In college I was just making brew in a bag beers and ciders from local orchards. A kegging system just wasn't in the cards.

Click to expand...

Hey CidahMastah. Don't let college title fool you. I am actually the director of the building. The real reason why I haven't gone bigger is that I feel guilty enough brewing with my current set-up in a "dry" hall. To be quite honest, I don't feel guilty busting up parties where people are consuming Natural Ice. If I can just stop one more person from drinking crap, I feel justified

Status Update: I have transferred my wheat tonight. I closed off the one check valve and set the new one to 30psi (remembered to bleed the keg this time too). Tomorrow night I will drop it down to serving pressure (13psi).

I was considering to do another day at 20psi, but I am afraid to keep my Irish Red off of the carbonation. I understand it is all in my head, but since I am still rather new to an "intermediate" status, I am extremely cautious of every step I take.

For some strange reason, I remembered everything being a lot more simple when I was brewing extract kits and bottling...

Cheers!

- Clint

P.S. When I get more familiar with the forum, I will start putting some pictures down to show my set up.

I've got an add-on kegging question. I brew in ten-gallon batches, and have a lager ready to come out of the fridge and into cornies on Friday. Unfortunately, I've only got one co2 tank. Can I pressurize each one seperately at a slightly higher volume, then bump them once a day? Would it be better to rotate co2 between cornies every 12 hours? Should I do this carbonation at lagering temp or bring the beer to room temp? After a three month wait on this batch, I want to finish right.

ere109 said:

I've got an add-on kegging question. I brew in ten-gallon batches, and have a lager ready to come out of the fridge and into cornies on Friday. Unfortunately, I've only got one co2 tank. Can I pressurize each one seperately at a slightly higher volume, then bump them once a day? Would it be better to rotate co2 between cornies every 12 hours? Should I do this carbonation at lagering temp or bring the beer to room temp? After a three month wait on this batch, I want to finish right.

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Did you do a diacetyl rest already? I assume so because usually this is done after primary for a lager. No need to bring them up to room temp at this point unless you are trying to accomplish something like that.

No need to gas both kegs unless you want to. I would put them in cornies and keep one refrigerated and put one on gas. You can keep one of the cornies lagering while you carb and drink the first one.

Any reason you need them both carbed?

You know if you had a manifold ($20-30) you can hook up multiple kegs at the same time off of one tank.

http://stores.kegconnection.com/Categories.bok?category=*Components:Air+Distributors

personally I would get one big enough to do as many kegs as your keezer can hold.

Unfortunately I do need them both. They were brewed for a big summer picnic I'm hosting in about three weeks. Best advice to have them both ready simultaneously?

ere109 said:

Unfortunately I do need them both. They were brewed for a big summer picnic I'm hosting in about three weeks. Best advice to have them both ready simultaneously?

Click to expand...

you don't have a manifold or air distributor to divide your gas? If not...

Personally if I were you I would boost one at 60PSI for 24-48 hours (cold). In most circumstances ~60 PSI for 48 hours gets the carb just about perfect.

So 24 hours @ 60PSI. Then burp keg, check carb by putting a beer line on the burped keg and let its own pressure pour (don't add gas). As long as it isn't super carbed, leave it on another 24 hours -- check again in 12 hours if you are nervous. Switch kegs and do the same to the second.

I did this to get a hefe ready in two days before memorial weekend. 48 hours at 60 psi, then down to 13psi - worked great.

Or, you could do the shake method.

just remember, it takes at least 6-12 hours to "stabilize" a bit when you boost or shake. So if you get really foamy beer right off don't worry. Just give it more rest time. Taste it for carb density.

between - just reread... 3 weeks is a ton of time to get these ready. Boost them 24-48hours and them put them both on your desired PSI after burping them. Order a manifold and you can carb them both to finishing PSI